Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Wallace and Gromit]

it is unbelievable


if mo's not on peds i'm bill clinton

I don't think breaking a 28 year old 1500m record by a small margin has anything to do with an assessment of Mo re doping. Top 5k runners have always been capable of running fast 1500s - Lagat, El Guerrouj, Wessinghage and Moorcroft spring to mind. Mo can do a 52s last lap in a brisk 5k and 10k, so he's got the speed necessary to be a top middle distance runner and obviously has htethe endurance.

Mo's transformation after going to train with Salazaar is much more interesting in this respect.

 

[thehog]

Quintana climb better than Froome and he is clean.
Sastre and Evans were better sometimes than Froome, cleans.

But the questions in not that, I think Froome is one of the best in History, but of course there were a lot of people all over the worl with more potential than Froome and could win him if they are trained correctly for that since 15 years old.

Maybe Pantani was outside human possibility, but Pantani is far away of Froome. Performance most of people did in the dark era will be one day improved for clean people.

Quintana told another pro last month, if i were riding in Colombia I couldn be top 5.

I was banned for repeat arguments to this statements, so there is censure here, so if you want I explain you this in private, and why Froome perfomance looks more than really is and why the argument that some people give has his mistakes.

Clearly this person is not Spanish. His spelling gets better then drops again. But to think he spent so much time producing the blog on Froome just to be a troll?

Odd.

In any case. Froome is cleans.

 

[the sceptic]

i heard badzilla can affect your spelling

 

[Zam_Olyas]

one of the worst meme ever.

and talk about Spanish, lol at this builder

http://gizmodo.com/the-builders-of-this-spanish-skyscraper-forgot-the-elev-1065152844

 

[airstream]

Hog, listen up... Seriously what Tour did you expect?

 

[vrusimov]

I'm not purely just talking about Froome but I understand that is what this thread's about but it is not unusual and really it should be the norm to expect the average rider's power data to be better than what it was 5, 10 or 15 years ago.

Well I just wonder why Contador's power values have not improved from his outrageous 1860 - 1925 VAM performance on Verbier in 2009???? That's just 5 years ago incidentally and the rider in question is still part of the peloton and just 30 years old. He has not been NEARLY the same rider since and we all know why. This opinion is your right but I think it is bordering on delusional in regards to cycling. Lemond set a time trial record speed in 1989 that has yet to be broken. [54.545 kph]. The only way that future clean riders are going to ride like Pantani, Riis and Contador is with a few liters extra blood, something all the nutrition on this planet won't give you.

 

[thehog]

Hog, listen up... Seriously what Tour did you expect?

We got the Tour we expected. Froome riding faster than Armstrong. Sprinting away from Contador in the saddle on Ventoux.

Perfect.

I hope the Dawg wins 8 Tours. I really do.

 

[mikeoneill]

I don't think breaking a 28 year old 1500m record by a small margin has anything to do with an assessment of Mo re doping. Top 5k runners have always been capable of running fast 1500s - Lagat, El Guerrouj, Wessinghage and Moorcroft spring to mind. Mo can do a 52s last lap in a brisk 5k and 10k, so he's got the speed necessary to be a top middle distance runner and obviously has htethe endurance.

Mo's transformation after going to train with Salazaar is much more interesting in this respect.

maybe you didn' hear the news

lagat and el g were 1500 guys

it's the big picture anyhow not just the 3-28

it dont pass the smell test

 

[The Hitch]

Not sure that taking less than a second off a 28 year old 1500m performance by Steve Cram is that hard to believe tbh. Particularly as he finished 2nd in the race and was effectively "paced" all the way round.

You forgot to mention that farah, - an average runner until just before his home olympics - what a great coincidence, is a long distance runner.

1500 m is not his distance. You do know that right, cos your post makes it look like he's a 1500m runner who finally got some good wind in a race, not a 10000m soon to be marathon runner who broke the record on one of his few attempts at a distance totally different to his which he doesn't even train.

 

[mikeoneill]

i bet crammy knows too

he says he 'shocked in a nice way'

i bet he gives mo the 'wink' to say he knows

 

[darwin553]

Well I just wonder why Contador's power values have not improved from his outrageous 1860 - 1925 VAM performance on Verbier in 2009???? That's just 5 years ago incidentally and the rider in question is still part of the peloton and just 30 years old.

Because Contador is not your average rider - give me a group of them say at least 15 cyclists and then we will talk.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

it's the big picture anyhow not just the 3-28

it dont pass the smell test

Agreed.

My point was that a sub 13 minute 5k runner who can put in a 52s final lap off a brisk pace in a 5k or 10k is physiologically almost ideal for running fast 1500s. He's obviously not quite as good at 1500s though as he didn't win that race, whereas he hasn't lost a significant 5k/10k for a long time.

Thus, given Mo's documented 5k performances, his 1500m run was not really a surprise.

His form after joining Salazar was a surprise though.

I don't think a 3:28 1500m is overly suspicious in its own right, given that Cram was running 3:29 in the mid 80s, and as per previous post, EPO hadn't been invented then and he raced too frequently at a consistent level to be an obvious likely "transfuser".

 

[darwin553]

Oh, Jeebus, save us. You are trying to equate football with cycling? That is ludicrous.

Football is something that most of us can relate to. That's why I used it. I could have easily used rugby union, league, NFL, cricket etc instead. The point is, because of the things I mentioned (advancements in training programs, nutrition programs) sportspeople are naturally going to perform better. The variable of course is how the individual reacts and responds to those programs and their expectations/targets where Froome may excel where others fail...

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

You do know that right...

Yes. If you want a p*ssing competition about athletics knowledge then bring it on.

You forgot to mention that farah, - an average runner until just before his home olympics...

I did mention the upturn in his form when he joined Salazar, which is essentially the same point.

1500 m is not his distance...a distance totally different to his which he doesn't even train.

If you knew as much about athletics as you think you do then you'd know that Mo has run 52s for the last lap of reasonably brisk 5k and 10k races in recent seasons. He did 52/53 for the last lap in both the 5k and 10k in London. The man has serious speed, and has done since before this year. So he must have been training to run that sort of speed when fatigued, which is exactly the sort of training that 1500m runners do!

Mo ran a 50.89s last lap in the European team competition earlier this year (late June) which although off a very slow pace is another indicator of his speed. That would be chuffing fast even in a slow 1500m. Cram and Gonzalez ran just under 50s for the last lap of the Europa Cup final in 1987, but last laps in 1500m races faster than Mo's 50.89 are very rare indeed. And Cram was a world class 800m runner as well.

So I contend again that Mo's performance was not actually that surprising. It was surprising in that to run any all-time top time, you need a lot of things to go right, so most attempts at fast times end in failure, but the building blocks were there. I remember similar arguments in the 1980s with folk saying that Cram wasn't the type of athlete to run a fast 800m because he lacked the blinding speed of a Coe or Ovett, but he kept on churning them out.

 

[tweak37]

what a strange coincidence that nutritional gains and super advanced training programs only work on Dawg and Porte.

Why would a doping program only work on Froome and Porte? And if that is so, why would't it be possible that nutritional gains and advanced training programs and whatnot "only work on Dawg and Porte"?

It's funny how self proclaimed sceptics (who are suprisingly dogmatic by the way) defend exceptionalism when it comes to Froome's doping program and attack it when it is about anything else like training, material and so on. There is no argument to back that up.

 

[the sceptic]

Maybe they dont have everyone on the same doping program. But if they had a magical training program that could make you climb as fast as Lance, then wouldnt everyone on the team get huge gains from that?

 

[tweak37]

Maybe they dont have everyone on the same doping program. But if they had a magical training program that could make you climb as fast as Lance, then wouldnt everyone on the team get huge gains from that?

So you believe that in 2011, Sky chose a random -possibly very mediocre- rider to turn into a world class GT rider, namely Froome. Put him on a magical doping program. Et voila.

This somehow strikes you as more likely than that Froome really is a very talented rider, who profits from the professional environment at Sky, just as many other riders there do. This of course doesn't mean that they all have the same level, as there are many different types of riders, and some are more talented than others, and some work harder than others, and some had more to gain than others, etc. So maybe there is a doping program too. Maybe their doping program is better than Saxo's or Katusha's. Who knows. But if that is possible, why wouldn't it be possible that their training programs are better too?

 

[Netserk]

Have you heard of super-responder before?

 

[tweak37]

Have you heard of super-responder before?

That's a factor in training methods and nutrition too.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

That's a factor in training methods and nutrition too.

Not so much in training methods, I'd say. Assuming that no pro team implements genuinely bad training, then all the pros will train a lot, and be close to their maximum potential by their mid 20s. Once you're training 30+ hours a week and have been doing so for a few years, the impact of even significant increases in training volume have minimal impact. And there aren't that many ways you can tweak training round a core endurance programme.

Obviously, fine margins are significant at the elite end of things, but fine margins are all one would expect from variations in training programme, if one assumes, per paragraph above, that pro coaches do largely know what they're doing.

Re nutrition, I go much faster on real ale the night before a major race than gassy, bland beer!

 

[The Hitch]

Yes. If you want a p*ssing competition about athletics knowledge then bring it on.



I did mention the upturn in his form when he joined Salazar, which is essentially the same point.



If you knew as much about athletics as you think you do then you'd know that Mo has run 52s for the last lap of reasonably brisk 5k and 10k races in recent seasons. He did 52/53 for the last lap in both the 5k and 10k in London. The man has serious speed, and has done since before this year. So he must have been training to run that sort of speed when fatigued, which is exactly the sort of training that 1500m runners do!

Mo ran a 50.89s last lap in the European team competition earlier this year (late June) which although off a very slow pace is another indicator of his speed. That would be chuffing fast even in a slow 1500m. Cram and Gonzalez ran just under 50s for the last lap of the Europa Cup final in 1987, but last laps in 1500m races faster than Mo's 50.89 are very rare indeed. And Cram was a world class 800m runner as well.

So I contend again that Mo's performance was not actually that surprising. It was surprising in that to run any all-time top time, you need a lot of things to go right, so most attempts at fast times end in failure, but the building blocks were there. I remember similar arguments in the 1980s with folk saying that Cram wasn't the type of athlete to run a fast 800m because he lacked the blinding speed of a Coe or Ovett, but he kept on churning them out.

You've got me all wrong.I'm not questioning your athletics knowledge nor trumpeting my own. I will openly aknowledge you seem to know more than me about it, though I am no armchair fan either and follow it hard for over a decade. I was merely adding the point, which you had not included, that 1500 is not farahs distance. I think it's a pretty big point and one people of any athletics knowledge can understand.

Ps I never said you didn't mention farahs transformation. That bit was a digression, clearly placed between commas. Eg x,(begin comma) who btw ...., (end comma) is y.

 

[tweak37]

I don't know about that. The advancements in training that were made in the past 20 years in cycling were without a doubt very significant. I don't see why that wouldn't be possible anymore.

 

[thehog]

I don't know about that. The advancements in training that were made in the past 20 years in cycling were without a doubt very significant. I don't see why that wouldn't be possible anymore.

Which advancements are those?

 

[Netserk]

Which advancements are those?

Warming down, washing hands, adding pineapple flavour to bidons etc.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

Which advancements are those?

Hiring from other sports, kerrison says hog, mate, howd'y mate, good on ya, mate.