Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Wow, Hoggie! One of your best posts in a while. Nicely done.

Thank you.

Froome effectively did an FTP test at the Commonwealth Games in 2006. If he was the big engine that Spud and Froome/Walsh et al claim that he might have been, he would have ridden a lot faster for 40km back in 2006. He rode just about an hour for 40km. He simply doesn't haven't a big engine. It doesn't take a secret lab test to prove that he did, he just doesn't have one.

Kenyan Christopher Froome stopped the clock in 53.58.01 for 40km.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/commgames06/?id=results/men_road_tt

So basically what a decent Continental rider should do. Good enough for a Pro Continental domestique IF they can climb.

 

[harryh]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

 

[McLovin]

Re: Re:

How does your approach differ? Would you change your mind if pre-11 data showed he was talented? If not, then what more would you need?

my approach differs because it follows logic and common sense.

of course I won't change my mind. The vast amount of evidence still says Froome is doping. Sky doing a little PR-exercise isn't going to magically make the evidence that he is doping go away.

And no, I'm not going to believe he was a talent even if the numbers say so. The evidence still says he was not a big talent when you look at his results and the way he was treated on the teams he rode on.

Asking me what is going to change my mind is like saying "what can I do to make you believe pigs can fly"

No its not. You say the evidence says he was not a big talent, but you want to see the pre-11 data. If the pre-11 data shows he did have a big engine (you know 5.7w/kg or more) wouldnt that be 'evidence' that he was a big talent? If not, why not?

Not sure you have a handle on what the numbers actually mean. 5.7w/kg on its own is meaningless. It also doesn't show if one is doping or not as they may have microdosed the night before the test.

You need to know the length of time the value was held, the riders weight at the time and the gradient (if any) of the climb.

A proper FTP test is for one hour, generally most do 20 minutes, normalise to an hour then drop 5% for fatigue.

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

You also don't appear to have a grip on the value in relation to weight;

2007 @ 70kg – 5.7w/kg = 399w avg

No way Froome was producing 400w average power in 2007 for one hour. He'd be winning TT's not falling off his bike or pushing Greg Henderson.

In 2012 at Salamanca Froome for a one hour TT produced 406w avg. You're suggesting that he was doing that in 2007!

Froome averaged 5.8w/kg at 406W for nearly an hour! He paced the event to perfection as the first half had a total altitude gain of 219m and he averaged 414w, versus the second half where the course had a total elevation gain of only 86m and he averaged 398w. There were certainly riders who started the time trial too hard and suffered in the final 20km where Froome ended up gaining ground.

This is the ideal test of one’s true capabilities at what is termed Functional Threshold Power (FTP). A cyclist’s FTP is the average watts they can maintain for a 60-minute effort. Given the fact that Froome’s 47km time trial took him 57 minutes we can easily conclude that his FTP equals a tad more than 400w.

The facts show that on PSM at this year's Tour he did 6.1w/kg for one hour (or just below) on a 10% gradient. Which is utterly insane even for a one off FTP test. Froome performed it 120km into a stage in week 2 of the Tour.



http://www.skysports.com/cycling/news/20192/7452102/froome-trainingpeaks-analysis

Am I missing something? He finished the climb in 2/3 of an hour (yeah, that's like you running another marathon after just finishing two of them. Big difference, right?). And the climb was 7.4% not 10. Right? That's why Froomey is winning Tours and you sit in front of a monitor eating sour grapes, because he is better with numbers.
And this is the best post in a while? Or, again, am I missing something? Maybe it's to early in the morning for me.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

Enough to do very well in the races Froome was doing in 2007 though.

 

[del1962]

Funny that "the best post in a while" has such glaringly faulty data

 

[Benotti69]

Re:

Funny that "the best post in a while" has such glaringly faulty data

Care to 'correct' the data or you just gonna whinge?

 

[del1962]

Re: Re:

Funny that "the best post in a while" has such glaringly faulty data

Care to 'correct' the data or you just gonna whinge?

If you cared to read others posts you will find they already have

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Funny that "the best post in a while" has such glaringly faulty data

Care to 'correct' the data or you just gonna whinge?

He corrected the gradient on PSM, nothing else. The post still stands as it was about Froome's 2007 data. Spud is trying to tell us Froome might have an average watts of 400w in 2007 for an hour, not possible.

Froome might have done 5.7w for 10 minutes but not for an hour.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

I don't know much of Jussi but he is a 8 time national road champion. Won stages of medium tours. Froome was 70kg in 2007. Jussi is 66kg from Wikipedia. Again like Spud messed up, weight is important when using the watts per kilogram value.

Do you have a link to the 5.65w?

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Wow, Hoggie! One of your best posts in a while. Nicely done.

Thank you.

Froome effectively did an FTP test at the Commonwealth Games in 2006. If he was the big engine that Spud and Froome/Walsh et al claim that he might have been, he would have ridden a lot faster for 40km back in 2006. He rode just about an hour for 40km. He simply doesn't haven't a big engine. It doesn't take a secret lab test to prove that he did, he just doesn't have one.

Kenyan Christopher Froome stopped the clock in 53.58.01 for 40km.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/commgames06/?id=results/men_road_tt

So basically what a decent Continental rider should do. Good enough for a Pro Continental domestique IF they can climb.

I think "decent" would be pushing it!

In saying that, Brailsford believes he saw something that day back in 2006!

Go figure

“He didn’t have the best equipment. I watched his time trial; this was a guy from nowhere, he did this phenomenal performance,” Brailsford told VeloNews. “I was like, ‘bloody hell, who is this guy?’ That was the first time I ever saw him.”

“The performance he did, on the equipment he was on, that takes some doing. We thought, ‘that guy’s got something, for sure,”‘ Brailsford said. “We always thought he was a bit of a diamond in the rough, who had a huge potential.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/the-story-of-brailsfords-froome-discovery-dates-back-to-2006_294574#hd6QPYEFtuHSsOGg.99

 

[Bumeington]

http://www.teamsky.com/teamsky/home/article/59618#8bZd0CJLCT2RIwGs.97

http://sportsscientists.com/2010/07/power-from-the-tourmalet-6wkg-anyone/

6.0 W/kg is roughly the power you need to put out on a tour final climb to win, but a tapered effort not at the end of a stage will be much higher.

This is why 6.7W/kg is the magic number for Armstrong but many of his tour rides are nearer the 6W/kg level.
This is why Froome produced 30 minutes at 419W on PSM but can produce 459W on Col de la Madone in training in 2013.

Anyway, 2007 Froome probably was producing 5.7W/kg as a journeyman pro, but nowhere near that at the end of a 200km stage

 

[thehog]

Anyway, 2007 Froome probably was producing 5.7W/kg as a journeyman pro, but nowhere near that at the end of a 200km stage

I look forward to seeing the figures but highly doubtful he was doing that even for a straight up FTP test.

His TT's at the time are not indicative of someone who could hold this figure for 40 minutes or more.

 

[Beech Mtn]

Anyway, 2007 Froome probably was producing 5.7W/kg as a journeyman pro, but nowhere near that at the end of a 200km stage

I look forward to seeing the figures but highly doubtful he was doing that even for a straight up FTP test.

His TT's at the time are not indicative of someone who could hold this figure for 40 minutes or more.

Between the sandshoes, the race marshals jumping out in front of him, and the Typhoid/Badzhilla/Influenza/Tuberculosis/Ebola/Time Spent in Iron Lung, this is all easily accounted for.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Wow, Hoggie! One of your best posts in a while. Nicely done.

Thank you.

Froome effectively did an FTP test at the Commonwealth Games in 2006. If he was the big engine that Spud and Froome/Walsh et al claim that he might have been, he would have ridden a lot faster for 40km back in 2006. He rode just about an hour for 40km. He simply doesn't haven't a big engine. It doesn't take a secret lab test to prove that he did, he just doesn't have one.

Kenyan Christopher Froome stopped the clock in 53.58.01 for 40km.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/commgames06/?id=results/men_road_tt

So basically what a decent Continental rider should do. Good enough for a Pro Continental domestique IF they can climb.

I think "decent" would be pushing it!

In saying that, Brailsford believes he saw something that day back in 2006!

Go figure

“He didn’t have the best equipment. I watched his time trial; this was a guy from nowhere, he did this phenomenal performance,” Brailsford told VeloNews. “I was like, ‘bloody hell, who is this guy?’ That was the first time I ever saw him.”

“The performance he did, on the equipment he was on, that takes some doing. We thought, ‘that guy’s got something, for sure,”‘ Brailsford said. “We always thought he was a bit of a diamond in the rough, who had a huge potential.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/the-story-of-brailsfords-froome-discovery-dates-back-to-2006_294574#hd6QPYEFtuHSsOGg.99

yeah...showing the recuparative powers he would go onto demonstrate in grand tours he got lapped in the mtb race two days later His equipment doesn't look too bad...low-pro, tri-bars and rear disc. He also looks to have SRMs on...got to love Sir dave

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

He came 5th at the (fricken) Comm Games TT 3 years later, 2 minutes behind the winner, Mr squeaky clean Millar.

I've asked Dr Michael Hutchinson if he has his W/kg from the TT on twitter but not sure if he's willing to answer. Doesn't factor in aero etc but still some sort of gauge.

For the record, I am doubting Froome was doing 5.7W/kg.

 

[thehog]

Anyway, 2007 Froome probably was producing 5.7W/kg as a journeyman pro, but nowhere near that at the end of a 200km stage

I look forward to seeing the figures but highly doubtful he was doing that even for a straight up FTP test.

His TT's at the time are not indicative of someone who could hold this figure for 40 minutes or more.

Between the sandshoes, the race marshals jumping out in front of him, and the Typhoid/Badzhilla/Influenza/Tuberculosis/Ebola/Time Spent in Iron Lung, this is all easily accounted for.

You can see now, the 2007 data will show Froome held 5.7w/kg for 90 seconds during a sprint, which puts him in the class of mountain climbers like Tour de France champion Alberto Contador

 

[harryh]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

I don't know much of Jussi but he is a 8 time national road champion. Won stages of medium tours. Froome was 70kg in 2007. Jussi is 66kg from Wikipedia. Again like Spud messed up, weight is important when using the watts per kilogram value.[\quote]

Well, Kiriyenka beat Samuel Pökälä by 7 mins in Baku European games tt who beat Veikkanen on national championships tt.

Do you have a link to the 5.65w?

http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/showthread.php?35845-Alberto-Contador-Kirjanpit%E4j%E4st%E4-p%E4%E4johtaja&p=1205601#post1205601

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

I don't know much of Jussi but he is a 8 time national road champion. Won stages of medium tours. Froome was 70kg in 2007. Jussi is 66kg from Wikipedia. Again like Spud messed up, weight is important when using the watts per kilogram value.[\quote]

Well, Kiriyenka beat Samuel Pökälä by 7 mins in Baku European games tt who beat Veikkanen on national championships tt.

Do you have a link to the 5.65w?

http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/showthread.php?35845-Alberto-Contador-Kirjanpit%E4j%E4st%E4-p%E4%E4johtaja&p=1205601#post1205601

Not an real FTP test then 'Predicted'.

Back to Spud's point he estimates Froome did 5.7w/kg for a FTP test back in 2007 at the UCI. He wasn't doing it in races so we can only assume this one of test was "off the charts".

 

[harryh]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

I don't know much of Jussi but he is a 8 time national road champion. Won stages of medium tours. Froome was 70kg in 2007. Jussi is 66kg from Wikipedia. Again like Spud messed up, weight is important when using the watts per kilogram value.[\quote]

Well, Kiriyenka beat Samuel Pökälä by 7 mins in Baku European games tt who beat Veikkanen on national championships tt.

Do you have a link to the 5.65w?

http://www.fillarifoorumi.fi/forum/showthread.php?35845-Alberto-Contador-Kirjanpit%E4j%E4st%E4-p%E4%E4johtaja&p=1205601#post1205601

Not an real FTP test then 'Predicted'.

Back to Spud's point he estimates Froome did 5.7w/kg for a FTP test back in 2007 at the UCI. He wasn't doing it in races so we can only assume this one of test was "off the charts".

Not 'Predicted'. 'Suunnilleen sama' means 'about the same as'.

 

[thehog]

Agreed. Not a formal FTP test.

Froome did testing at the UCI in 2007, supposedly a formalized FTP test in a lab. Spud thinks he might have produced 5.7w/kg for one hour. Highly doubtful as his TTs around the time were nowhere near this value in power.

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Wow, Hoggie! One of your best posts in a while. Nicely done.

Thank you.

Froome effectively did an FTP test at the Commonwealth Games in 2006. If he was the big engine that Spud and Froome/Walsh et al claim that he might have been, he would have ridden a lot faster for 40km back in 2006. He rode just about an hour for 40km. He simply doesn't haven't a big engine. It doesn't take a secret lab test to prove that he did, he just doesn't have one.

Kenyan Christopher Froome stopped the clock in 53.58.01 for 40km.

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/road/2006/mar06/commgames06/?id=results/men_road_tt

So basically what a decent Continental rider should do. Good enough for a Pro Continental domestique IF they can climb.

I think "decent" would be pushing it!

In saying that, Brailsford believes he saw something that day back in 2006!

Go figure

“He didn’t have the best equipment. I watched his time trial; this was a guy from nowhere, he did this phenomenal performance,” Brailsford told VeloNews. “I was like, ‘bloody hell, who is this guy?’ That was the first time I ever saw him.”

“The performance he did, on the equipment he was on, that takes some doing. We thought, ‘that guy’s got something, for sure,”‘ Brailsford said. “We always thought he was a bit of a diamond in the rough, who had a huge potential.”

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/the-story-of-brailsfords-froome-discovery-dates-back-to-2006_294574#hd6QPYEFtuHSsOGg.99

yeah...showing the recuparative powers he would go onto demonstrate in grand tours he got lapped in the mtb race two days later His equipment doesn't look too bad...low-pro, tri-bars and rear disc. He also looks to have SRMs on...got to love Sir dave

There's some more Brailsford gold in that article:

For Brailsford, it all started with that Commonwealth Games back in 2006.

“That really caught our eye, and made us start talking,” he said. “Then we found out he had a British passport, and the rest is history, as they say.”

Now that Brailsford has helped transform the diamond in the rough into a Tour winner, he’s not keen to let him go. La Gazzetta dello Sport reported Wednesday that Sky has signed the current maillot jaune to a contract extension through 2016 — a term that will keep the pair together a full decade after that inauspicious ride in Melbourne.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013/07/news/the-story-of-brailsfords-froome-discovery-dates-back-to-2006_294574#hd6QPYEFtuHSsOGg.99

 

[gillan1969]

The 2006 top three whilst solid pros have not exactly set the world alight…I know Mcauley as he rode in the UK I think but from memory was a sort of burly one day specialist…never really known for his TT ability…..looking at the palmares of the other two medallists…well…they never really bothered the top end of a world class TT….ever. It’s not like there were world class Commie riders like Obree, Millar, Boardman, Yates, Dowsett in the field…so he loses 5.20 over 53 mins in what is in effect a national standard TT….and that is what really catches Sir Dave’s eye….

 

[Benotti69]

Agreed. Not a formal FTP test.

Froome did testing at the UCI in 2007, supposedly a formalized FTP test in a lab. Spud thinks he might have produced 5.7w/kg for one hour. Highly doubtful as his TTs around the time were nowhere near this value in power.

He had a tailwind in the Aigle lab

 

[thehog]

Agreed. Not a formal FTP test.

Froome did testing at the UCI in 2007, supposedly a formalized FTP test in a lab. Spud thinks he might have produced 5.7w/kg for one hour. Highly doubtful as his TTs around the time were nowhere near this value in power.

He had a tailwind in the Aigle lab

Whilst some don't always agree with Coggan, his PowerChart is the generally accepted guide to FTP.

And, yes, if Froome was at 5.7w/kg in 2007 for one hour he would have had a massive tailwind wind in the lab on his stationary bike

http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/power-profiling

 

[Bumeington]

Re: Re:

If Froome was holding 5.7w/kg for one hour FTP test in 2007 at 70kg's then he would have been winning just about every race he was in.

Jussi Veikkanen's FTP was 5.65 w/kg. Not won too much.

He came 5th at the (fricken) Comm Games TT 3 years later, 2 minutes behind the winner, Mr squeaky clean Millar.

I've asked Dr Michael Hutchinson if he has his W/kg from the TT on twitter but not sure if he's willing to answer. Doesn't factor in aero etc but still some sort of gauge.

For the record, I am doubting Froome was doing 5.7W/kg.

I would guess 400W for MH (/kg not particularly relevant)