Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[ontheroad]

Re:

Could very well be that he'll take about a minute on the time trial and leave it there. After the sh*tstorm that followed the Pierre St. Martin stage last year, I doubt we'll see Froome obliterating the field on a MTF unless he absolutely has to. To the layman, taking time in the downhills, echelons and time trials seems much less sketchy. It just looks like good tactics and skillful riding, plus Froome was always a better TT-rider than Nairo, so that's just normal. People in the know can tell you all about the ridiculous power output needed to pull off a stunt like the one we saw today or competing at the top of flat TT.

People are far too willing to forget the long list of suspect performances that precede this one. Even in 2012 the fact that Froome had made the quantum leap from total anonymity less than a year earlier wasn't even a subject amongst most people. "He did well in the Vuelta," they'd tell you. Same with Wiggins. Oh, he came fourth behind three of the most obvious dopers in the peloton in 2009 after being a track rider/fat TT guy for the entirety of his career? Nothing suspect about that at all. He lost some weight, after all.

Cycling fans in general are idiots. It blows my mind that the reaction from so-called experts hasn't been utter disbelief and refusal to accept what's going on right from the get-go, and at this point we're getting so deep into it that Froome "was always a great cyclist". Making it seem like he's winning a Tour with "good tactics" and "great bike-handling" rather than having a massive power advantage over everyone will make the masses forget even more what a fraud this guy is, not to mention the rest of his team.

I agree with all of this. When a bike rider has such an obvious power advantage over the rest of the field it is exaggerating it to say that it was a 'tactically superb' manoeuvre. The power needed to first bridge across and then bring that move to the line from 10km out for a supposed mountain goat(!!), is massive. You can have all the tactical awareness you like but if you don't have the physical capabilities to deliver then it is not worth a ball of blue. Most riders simply do not have the physical capabilities to do what Froome done today, not to mention being multi faceted in being able to spin a ridiculous cadence going up a mountain and to churn out huge power in a TT.

He has now been dominant for long enough that this is considered his 'normal' level with many casual fans. If it weren't for a team orders and a crash he would lnow be going for his 5th TDF in a row having previously been a grupetto rider. I don't think there is any great love for Froome among die hard bike followers as those who know enough about the sport realise that there is something going on. However sky by using their carefully managed PR campaign only have to convince enough of the casual fans to reap the harvest.

 

[Tienus]

It was Froome that closed the gap, without any help. Thomas was closer to him than he was to Sagan and Bodnar, and he struggled.

Cancellara could not keep the wheel of Thomas.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

It was Froome that closed the gap, without any help. Thomas was closer to him than he was to Sagan and Bodnar, and he struggled.

https://twitter.com/CyclingHubTV/status/753248228208996352

The way he bridged that gap was effing superhuman, and then he fended off a frenzied and panicked peloton for 10kms before contesting a sprint against Peter Sagan. It's like he realizes "Oh ***, Sagan's got a 10 metre gap" and just rides a charging Thomas and Cancellara right off his wheel to catch up, all while staying in the saddle. The history books will show Froome just being keen and alert and riding good tactically, though.

There's this nagging feeling with Froome that we haven't seen the peak of his capabilities. At least with the rider that finishes second you know where his limit is - it's exactly at the point where Froome starts riding away from him. When that happens, more often than not, Froome hardly looks like he's even trying.

If by chance some supercharged Froome-level mutant popped out from the woodwork and stuck to Froome like a bad smell in next years Tour, I have this feeling they'd leave everyone else struggling minutes behind on all the tough stages just trying to shake each other.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

It was Froome that closed the gap, without any help. Thomas was closer to him than he was to Sagan and Bodnar, and he struggled.

https://twitter.com/CyclingHubTV/status/753248228208996352

The way he bridged that gap was effing superhuman, and then he fended off a frenzied and panicked peloton for 10kms before contesting a sprint against Peter Sagan. The history books will show Froome just being keen and alert and riding good tactically, though.

There's this nagging feeling with Froome that we haven't seen the peak of his capabilities. At least with the rider that finishes second you know where his limit is - it's exactly at the point where Froome starts riding away from him. When that happens, more often than not, Froome hardly looks like he's even trying.

If by chance some supercharged Froome-level mutant popped out from the woodwork and stuck to Froome like a bad smell in next years Tour, I have this feeling they'd leave everyone else struggling minutes behind on all the tough stages just trying to shake each other.

I don't necessarily disagree with what you are saying; it's clear that Froome at his peak has a super-human amount of power in almost all conditions.

But, regarding the peak of his abilities - where do his performances in the Vuelta in recent years fit into that? Do you think he's deliberately sandbagging not to win, or that his form falls off a cliff after the Tdf? He's even been dropped by Contador a few times there, in a big race, that you think he'd want to win. And Contador is no longer the super-human we saw prior to 2011.

 

[kwikki]

I don't think Froome contested the sprint.

Froome wasn't after the win, he was after seconds over the GC riders. You could tell that by the way he looked back repeatedly and as he crossed the line. Sagan knew he would win and started to slacken off. Froome started a sprint to force Sagan to carry him over the line quicker. Froome also sprinted to ensure he took second place and the 6 second bonus.

I don't think what we just saw was anything extraordinary. It was several of the best riders in the world being at the front and exploiting a crosswind. The way Froome bridged wasn't incredible, it was an immediate reaction and he was all over the bike trying to get on.

Then look at the end result. Froome buried himself to get 15 seconds over Quintana. He got those 15 seconds because Quintana f*****d up big time.

Remember 2009? Similar thing happened between LA and AC. LA grabbed some seconds, but who won in the end...

Might have been worth it, but it isn't certain.

 

[Benotti69]

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

 

[kwikki]

Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

Other than lots of recon, one doesn't.

What one can do is say something like ''We've been working on catching other teams by surprise" hoping that it will make other teams nervous.

 

[McLovin]

After Dauphine, why would he have doubts about his climbing abilities?? He just attacks because he can. He attacked in 2013 on the second stage, in 15 on Huy. He must be to strong.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

I don't think Froome contested the sprint.

Froome wasn't after the win, he was after seconds over the GC riders. You could tell that by the way he looked back repeatedly and as he crossed the line. Sagan knew he would win and started to slacken off. Froome started a sprint to force Sagan to carry him over the line quicker. Froome also sprinted to ensure he took second place and the 6 second bonus.

I don't think what we just saw was anything extraordinary. It was several of the best riders in the world being at the front and exploiting a crosswind. The way Froome bridged wasn't incredible, it was an immediate reaction and he was all over the bike trying to get on.

Then look at the end result. Froome buried himself to get 15 seconds over Quintana. He got those 15 seconds because Quintana f*****d up big time.

Remember 2009? Similar thing happened between LA and AC. LA grabbed some seconds, but who won in the end...

Might have been worth it, but it isn't certain.

I think that's a bit simplistic. Quintana didn't really mess it up. He just didn't have anything like the power to bridge to two of the best cobbled riders in the world, a super TTist and (increduously) Froome. Even Kristoff couldn't get across the gap.

The question is how can Froome, a guy who is also the best climber and one of the best TTist in the world, bridge across to classics specialists, and then do more than his fair share of work to hold off a peloton full of sprint trains? He's skinny enough to take minutes on the field in a hard MTF, aero enough to beat the specialists in flat time trials, and powerful enough to drive a break through echelons. It's just ridiculous that this is now seen as a normal level for him.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

Other than lots of recon, one doesn't.

What one can do is say something like ''We've been working on catching other teams by surprise" hoping that it will make other teams nervous.

Yes because all the other teams came down in the last rain shower and haven't had time to practice to "work on catching other teams by surprise".

Boy does Brailsford spew like Bruyneel.

Have they ever been seen in the same room together?

 

[kwikki]

Did he do more than his fair share? I'd have to rewatch but I got the impression Sagan did more.

I don't find that one of the world's best TT riders goes flat out over 10k very suspicious, to be honest. Plenty to be suspicious about in general, but this? No. What you just watched was some bike racing.

I think it was a bit of a desperate move, personally, and I don't think we'll be seeing Froome going full tard this year. We'll all have to come up with our own conclusion why and yes, it might involve motors or the lack of one.

 

[LeindersGains]

http://www.thermal.com/

Anyone with such a camera on their smartphone? A spectator could do a better job busting a rider than those on the motorcycles.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

How about the fact that riding off the front doesn't involve any surprise. All you're doing is crushing everyone as they watch you ride away. Oh now I get it. Surprise! I'm putting out 321,800 Watts at FTP!

John Swanson

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Did he do more than his fair share? I'd have to rematch but I got the impression Sagan did more.

I don't find that one of the world's best TT riders goes flat out over 10k very suspicious, to be honest. Plenty to be suspicious about in general, but this? No. What you just watched was some bike racing.

I think it was a bit of a desperate move, personally, and I don't think we'll be seeing Froome going full tard this year. We'll all have to come up with our own conclusion why and yes, it might involve motors or the lack of one.

Riding echelons in a break at the end of a ace isn't really like riding a TT. It's a series of hard anaerobic efforts when you're working at the front of a group, with relative recovery while you follow wheels. That's a skill that Froome hasn't really demonstrated much before.

Now he's suddenly up there with the best classics specialists. Add that to being the best climber in the world, one of the best time-triallists and now also a great descender. Considering the differences in era and how specialised everything is now, the guy is more talented than Merckx and is pulling new tricks out of the hat every year.

Yet, his record and performances until the age of 25 were that of completely unremarkable pack fodder.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

How about the fact that riding off the front doesn't involve any surprise. All you're doing is crushing everyone as they watch you ride away. Oh now I get it. Surprise! I'm putting out 321,800 Watts at FTP!

John Swanson

Anyone looking at his power data for today's stage would probably have a heart attack looking at those final 10K.

In other words, Sky are doing us all a favor by not releasing it to the public.

 

[Benotti69]

Re: Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

How about the fact that riding off the front doesn't involve any surprise. All you're doing is crushing everyone as they watch you ride away. Oh now I get it. Surprise! I'm putting out 321,800 Watts at FTP!

John Swanson

Then how about Brailsford doesn't treat us all like idiots!

 

[kwikki]

Did he do more than his fair share? I'd have to rematch but I got the impression Sagan did more.

I don't find that one of the world's best TT riders goes flat out over 10k very suspicious, to be honest. Plenty to be suspicious about in general, but this? No. What you just watched was some bike racing.

I think it was a bit of a desperate move, personally, and I don't think we'll be seeing Froome going full tard this year. We'll all have to come up with our own conclusion why and yes, it might involve motors or the lack of one.

Riding echelons in a break at the end of a ace isn't really like riding a TT. It's a series of hard anaerobic efforts when you're working at the front of a group, with relative recovery while you follow wheels. That's a skill that Froome hasn't really demonstrated much before.

Now he's suddenly up there with the best classics specialists. Add that to being the best climber in the world, one of the best time-triallists and now also a great descender. Considering the differences in era and how specialised everything is now, the guy is more talented than Merckx and is pulling new tricks out of the hat every year.

Yet, his record and performances until the age of 25 were that of completely unremarkable pack fodder.

I don't disagree with you about his dodgy progression pre-2011. I think if Froome does anything to try and win there will be an outcry here.

Ventoux 2013 was worth an outcry. This? Not so much, in my view. But I fully accept that others view it differently.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re:

I don't think what we just saw was anything extraordinary. It was several of the best riders in the world being at the front and exploiting a crosswind. The way Froome bridged wasn't incredible, it was an immediate reaction and he was all over the bike trying to get on.

Froome struggled a lot less to close the 3 bike lengths between him and Sagan than Thomas did to hold Froome's wheel. Meanwhile, the guy behind Thomas, a certain Mr Cancellara, couldn't hold Thomas' wheel and eased off.

Pretty incredible for a classics specialist, let alone a bony GC contender

 

[CheckMyPecs]

A single data point is statistically meaningless. If he was doing this on every other flat stage, now that would be more worrying...

 

[DFA123]

Re:

Did he do more than his fair share? I'd have to rematch but I got the impression Sagan did more.

I don't find that one of the world's best TT riders goes flat out over 10k very suspicious, to be honest. Plenty to be suspicious about in general, but this? No. What you just watched was some bike racing.

I think it was a bit of a desperate move, personally, and I don't think we'll be seeing Froome going full tard this year. We'll all have to come up with our own conclusion why and yes, it might involve motors or the lack of one.

Riding echelons in a break at the end of a ace isn't really like riding a TT. It's a series of hard anaerobic efforts when you're working at the front of a group, with relative recovery while you follow wheels. That's a skill that Froome hasn't really demonstrated much before.

Now he's suddenly up there with the best classics specialists. Add that to being the best climber in the world, one of the best time-triallists and now also a great descender. Considering the differences in era and how specialised everything is now, the guy is more talented than Merckx and is pulling new tricks out of the hat every year.

Yet, his record and performances until the age of 25 were that of completely unremarkable pack fodder.

I don't disagree with you about his dodgy progression pre-2011. I think is Froome does anything to try and win there will be an outcry here.

Ventoux 2013 was worth an outcry. This? Not so much, in my view. But I fully accept that others view it differently.

Fair enough. Ventoux was definitely more ridiculous in some ways - but that could be put down to more traditional doping and being a good responder. I'm not sure traditional doping can explain this new-found diversity and improvement in anaerobic as well as aerobic power. I don't really buy the motor theory either, because it's too risky now, in the biggest race, even if he's protected by ASO/UCI there are too many other hangers-on in the TdF that might expose a motor - especially given how the issue is in the limelight.

I guess context will be key. If he flunks on Ventoux and loses time and the race to Quintana in the TT or last week, these attacks could just look like the last hope of a desperate rider. But I'm not holding my breath that will happen.

 

[Saint Unix]

I don't know what to believe with Froome any more. If he's supposed to be the best climber in the world, he shouldn't be able to rip up the flats like he did today or TT with the Martins and Cancellaras. If he's supposed to be the best flats or TT rider, he shouldn't be able to cover attacks from all the GC guys in the mountains. The fact that he's all three makes every single stunt he tries absolutely unbelievable in every sense of the word.

Froome is somehow the strongest rider on all types of terrain, except the cobbles. Maybe he's a Roubaix winner in the making too? Wouldn't surprise me at this point. There's a reason I say I don't think we've seen the peak of his powers yet. I have no idea how much power he's actually capable of generating. I just know that if a tricky situation arises like today, he will have the power available to do exactly what he needs to do with relative ease. Absolute mutant.

 

[kwikki]

Re: Re:

I don't think what we just saw was anything extraordinary. It was several of the best riders in the world being at the front and exploiting a crosswind. The way Froome bridged wasn't incredible, it was an immediate reaction and he was all over the bike trying to get on.

Froome struggled a lot less to close the 3 bike lengths between him and Sagan than Thomas did to hold Froome's wheel. Meanwhile, the guy behind Thomas, a certain Mr Cancellara, couldn't hold Thomas' wheel and eased off.

Pretty incredible for a classics specialist, let alone a bony GC contender

I didn't notice where Mollema was at the split. If he wasn't on Cancellara's wheel I'm not sure why Canc would be too bothered.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

A single data point is statistically meaningless. If he was doing this on every other flat stage, now that would be more worrying...

It's not meaningless. Most GC riders couldn't do that once.

 

[kwikki]

I would not be surprised if in a weeks time history judges this to have been a stupid move. On the other hand, did Froome actually have any other choice?

 

[Angliru]

Re: Re:

'We've been working on catching other teams by surprise' - Sir Dave Brailsford tells Europsort

How does one work on catching other teams by surprise? :lol:

How about the fact that riding off the front doesn't involve any surprise. All you're doing is crushing everyone as they watch you ride away. Oh now I get it. Surprise! I'm putting out 321,800 Watts at FTP!

John Swanson

That is what I noticed about Froome. While typically a climber will attack his opponent from the behind him, Froome is confident enough to be riding on the very front, attack his opponents and simply ride them off of his wheel. He has this smug confidence that he seems to know that they either wont' be able to even hold his wheel or that if they do, they won't be able to after several more attacks. The element of surprise (and that immediate hoped for separation that often comes with it) doesn't come into play. It's like "I'm bored with this pedestrian pace so I'll see you gents after the finish".