Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[red_flanders]

Do those other injuries take longer to heal than a broken femur? What's the cumulative effect of those injuries on recovery time compared to standard recovery?

I'm not a doctor, but having been injured many times, I can attest that hip, rib, and neck injuries each limit one's movement in the extreme, never mind all 3 plus a broken femur. Breathing is even difficult. Much harder to do all the things one can do to stay fit and recover from a leg injury if one also has severe injuries in several other major body areas. I would think those would slow one's recovery significantly over "only" a broken femur.

It does seem remarkable that he's back on the bike in 3 1/2 months, but he has only recovery to focus on and all the resources he could need to do it.

 

[macbindle]

He's back on the bike, but that doesnt mean he has recovered. His biomechanics will be altered probably forever and he will have lost muscle.

I don't really have an opinion as to whether it is remarkable because I dont know the extent of his recovery.

 

[Merckx index]

Froome was the second pro cyclist to break his femur this season. The first was Nathan Earle.

Earle returned to (proper) racing 110 days after his crash. The Saitama Crit is 137 days after Froome's crash.

Actually, his first race after the accident was about 130 days later. But your point is taken. Earle seemed to have a somewhat similar accident, in that he crashed into a barrier, though it was one of those low corrugated metal ones, not a brick or stone wall. I don't think he suffered additional injuries like Froome, though, nor lost a lot of blood. OTOH, it's noteworthy that Earle was still recovering from a previous accident at the time.

But what we don't know is whether he's really been the same since. In 2018, he won 107 PCS points, 34 of them coming beginning in August. This year he had 43 prior to his accident in early April--comparable to 39 he had at the same time last year-- and only 15 since, after returning to racing in late July. That may not mean anything, but at the very least, I don't think anyone can say for sure whether Earle is back to 100% yet.

For another example, Luke Rowe returned to full racing just 6 months after breaking his leg in 20 places.

Rowe broke his tibia and fibula, not from a high speed crash into a barrier, but from jumping into a creek at a party. It was a simple fracture, i.e., the skin was not broken. Not to dismiss the seriousness of it, but recovery time from a fractured tibia or fibula is typically faster than from a broken femur.

Was he affected? He accumulated 322 PCS points in 2017, and that was with his season ending with the accident in early August. He won about 300 points in each of the previous two seasons. Though he returned to racing in February of 2018, he produced only 105 PCS points that season. This year, which began a year and a half after his accident, he's currently at 283. It appears he needed more than a year to return to his previous level.

He's back on the bike, but that doesnt mean he has recovered. His biomechanics will be altered probably forever and he will have lost muscle.

I would think so. I can't forget Beloki, who like Froome, suffered additional injuries to a broken femur (wrist, elbow). He did break his femur in two places, which I would think would be even more difficult to heal than a single break. In any case, while he returned to racing the next year, it was another year after that before he completed a GT, and he clearly was never the same rider again.

Every rider, and every accident, is different, but I would think Beloki would be a better comparison, not only because of the multiple injuries, but because he was an elite rider, who had more to lose, performance-wise, than Earle or Rowe.

 

[Parker]

Actually, his first race after the accident was about 130 days later. But your point is taken. Earle seemed to have a somewhat similar accident, in that he crashed into a barrier, though it was one of those low corrugated metal ones, not a brick or stone wall. I don't think he suffered additional injuries like Froome, though, nor lost a lot of blood. OTOH, it's noteworthy that Earle was still recovering from a previous accident at the time.

But what we don't know is whether he's really been the same since. In 2018, he won 107 PCS points, 34 of them coming beginning in August. This year he had 43 prior to his accident in early April--comparable to 39 he had at the same time last year-- and only 15 since, after returning to racing in late July. That may not mean anything, but at the very least, I don't think anyone can say for sure whether Earle is back to 100% yet.



Rowe broke his tibia and fibula, not from a high speed crash into a barrier, but from jumping into a creek at a party. It was a simple fracture, i.e., the skin was not broken. Not to dismiss the seriousness of it, but recovery time from a fractured tibia or fibula is typically faster than from a broken femur.

Was he affected? He accumulated 322 PCS points in 2017, and that was with his season ending with the accident in early August. He won about 300 points in each of the previous two seasons. Though he returned to racing in February of 2018, he produced only 105 PCS points that season. This year, which began a year and a half after his accident, he's currently at 283. It appears he needed more than a year to return to his previous level.

I don't think PCS points aren't a reliable judge of a domestique's form. Rowe doesn't get any points for getting Colombians through crosswinds at Paris-Nice, he gets them for getting in the right move in middling classics.

I thought Valverde's crash in 2017 would be a career ender. I was wrong. I didn't to cast suspicions to explain me being wrong though, which some are doing (mostly elsewhere_) with Froome.

 

[King Boonen]

I'm not a doctor...

That's probably where this post should have stopped, along with lots of other posts in this thread.

 

[stephenm]

Comparing one athlete's perceived injuries and crash to another's and drawing a conclusion to suit your very own conspiracy theory. Come on.

The surgeon who operated on Froome was very clear about the severity of his injuries. I understand this forum is for people to lay out their doping theories. But then to infer the medical teams are part of it stretches credulity beyond any reason.

 

[aphronesis]

That's probably where this post should have stopped, along with lots of other posts in this thread.

Beyond that, people need to understand that doctors are not one size fits all. If you are a high functioning professional (of means) that uses their body in specialized ways: whether as a pianist or an athlete you’re likely to be told different things by different specialists and therapists than if you’re just some average person for whom the concern is that you regain basic functioning and mobility. Much in the way that certain surgeons will make a decision not to pin a broken collarbone with an eye to complications later in life. That can change if one needs to be competitive in a race 4 weeks from now. This is largely how it is in the US. My experience with UK and French medical systems is far more limited, but I suspect similar tendencies hold.

 

[red_flanders]

That's probably where this post should have stopped, along with lots of other posts in this thread.

I’d argue this is the only unnecessary post in the thread, with zero content added.

 

[King Boonen]

I’d argue this is the only unnecessary post in the thread, with zero content added.

in 34,000 posts? Think you might be on to a loser there. Seemed to add enough to elicit a good response (from @aphronesis ), pretty sure that's the point of this forum.

 

[King Boonen]

Beyond that, people need to understand that doctors are not one size fits all. If you are a high functioning professional (of means) that uses their body in specialized ways: whether as a pianist or an athlete you’re likely to be told different things by different specialists and therapists than if you’re just some average person for whom the concern is that you regain basic functioning and mobility. Much in the way that certain surgeons will make a decision not to pin a broken collarbone with an eye to complications later in life. That can change if one needs to be competitive in a race 4 weeks from now. This is largely how it is in the US. My experience with UK and French medical systems is far more limited, but I suspect similar tendencies hold.

Pretty much yes, I was hoping my short post implied this. Even if we take different advice as a given, the number of users who are willing to start implying they have any knowledge of mean recovery times for injuries across different demographics and treatment regimes is laughable, and by laughable I mean I have actually been sat laughing at some of it. It's like parents who have 1-3 children and think they know how to deal with every child and every parenting problem that might come up. The lack of self awareness is staggering.

A poster like @Merckx index will at least try and find some sort of reference and measure to compare things against. I'd argue it's still not really relevant as N is much to small and the subjects probably aren't really comparable, I'm sure MI would agree, but it's an attempt to not make assumptions and try and give the discussion some context.


It's not just that advice will change depending on circumstances, it's that aftercare and related physical therapy will be completely different. Froome is a valuable asset to Ineos and they will have provided the very best care possible. Even comparing him to Earle or Beloki likely isn't a great comparison, but at least it's an attempt.

 

[red_flanders]

in 34,000 posts? Think you might be on to a loser there. Seemed to add enough to elicit a good response (from @aphronesis ), pretty sure that's the point of this forum.

Yes, discussion is the point of the forum, your subsequent post lambasting the on-topic discussion notwithstanding.

Palpable irony.

 

[macbindle]

You could substitute the words "I am not a doctor but" with "I have absolutely no real knowledge whatsoever but I'm going to give an opinion based on nothing regardless".

The Beloki crash was 16 years ago. 'I am not a doctor' but I suspect medical knowledge and expertise is better now than it was then.

 

[red_flanders]

I wonder what was so threatening about my fairly innocuous comments to bring all my fans out to play. Fascinating.

 

[macbindle]

Ah....I see what you did there.

Invoking the 'fanboy' meme...a dogwhistle to try and rally a mob, whilst simultaneously trying to devalue the points made by your critics without actually countering them with reasoned argument.

Classy posting from you.

 

[aphronesis]

Back to reality, KB raised the point that people who have nothing to offer but biographical anecdotes or catch-all mystification of “doctors”, have, well, nothing to offer on the subject of Froom’s injuries and recovery.

 

[King Boonen]

What was the conspiracy-theory angle on this one, I didn't catch what that was about at the time, and can't see what the motive for Ineos would be. That Froome is actually undergoing some kind of unprecedented physical 'modifications', and the crash was staged to give a pretext for that? Froome was not as badly injured as originally reported, for example: the idea that he lost 2000ml of blood at the scene - and would have bled to death - was just false... and he wouldn't be back on the bike already if everything reported at that time were true. That having been said, it was just as Wout Poels described (he was genuinely freaked-out and deeply disturbed), and the scenario was confirmed by locals, who live on the street where Froome crashed. The speed of the crash was somewhat exaggerated but doesn't matter, because Froome could have been killed in that at any speed. I don't get what the conspiracy would be for

I think the conspiracy theory was that it was either to cover up a positive/ban or so he could be given drugs in case he tested positive. There was a lot on Twitter that was apparently absolutely crazy but I avoided it.

Scepticism over the seriousness of the injuries he suffered seems fair. These things get reported quickly and the more nuanced diagnosis and outlook isn't going to be in the papers, it's going to be between Froome and his doctors/team. whether there was purposeful misreporting is quite interesting considering the teams history.

 

[Merckx index]

Of course all we can do is speculate about how fast and to what extent Froome will recover. That's what this forum is for. Referring to previous riders who suffered crashes doesn't prove a case, but it does provide some reference material to guide the speculation.

I don't think PCS points aren't a reliable judge of a domestique's form. Rowe doesn't get any points for getting Colombians through crosswinds at Paris-Nice, he gets them for getting in the right move in middling classics.

But such moves should be averaged out over an entire season. I do find it suggestive if not compelling that Rowe's point total was quite consistent for three straight years, then dropped by 2/3 the year after the accident, then rebounded to about what it had been prior to the accident after an additional year.

In any case, here is Rowe on his recovery last January, at the beginning of his second full season following the broken lower leg bones:

After undergoing surgery, Rowe returned to racing in early 2018 but suffered crashes in his target races.

He said: “[Recovering from the leg injury] is an on-going process and it could be that way for the rest of my life.

“I had another operation this winter where I had a couple of screws taken out.

“The rod itself is still in and probably will be for the rest of my life. That’s the way it is.

“It’s not necessarily ever going to get 100 per cent better, but we’re pretty much 90 per cent of the way and I think that’s where it’s going to stay.

Read more at https://www.cyclingweekly.com/news/...sics-years-ticking-404393#XGWPRvSecDVEOClD.99

That said, procyclingstats lists nine riders with a fractured femur this year, three of whom (in addition to Earle, already mentioned) have returned to racing:

Alois Kankovsky 6 weeks
Yukiya Arashiro 14 weeks
Oscar Cabedo 4 weeks (estimated at the time to be out 8 weeks)

Arashiro also suffered a fractured femur in 2016, and returned to racing after 12 weeks.

 

[rick james]

That's probably where this post should have stopped, along with lots of other posts in this thread.

 

[cmason]

I also don't think he was as badly injured as first reported, the claim about blood loss seemed a little far fetched to me. the silent ban theory also doesn't seem right as he would have just invented another in the long line of illnesses that have blighted his career. but one thing I thought at the time was anyone who rides a bike to any level knows not to take your hands off the bars at 60kph going downhill in a sidewind with deep section wheels. you deserve all you get for that.

 

[rick james]

I also don't think he was as badly injured as first reported, the claim about blood loss seemed a little far fetched to me. the silent ban theory also doesn't seem right as he would have just invented another in the long line of illnesses that have blighted his career. but one thing I thought at the time was anyone who rides a bike to any level knows not to take your hands off the bars at 60kph going downhill in a sidewind with deep section wheels. you deserve all you get for that.

“more or less two litres” according to Giorgio Gresta, an orthopaedic surgeon at the Saint-Etienne hospital.

 

[CTQ]

He said 65% (left leg) vs 35%( right leg) on French TV last Sunday. Limping at the TDF presentation, surgery in couple of weeks for remove a pin from his hip. still a long way before being competitive.

 

[MartinGT]

I don't think there was any cover up of a ban or anything. I just do not believe the injuries suffered were as bad as what was reported.

 

[rick james]

I don't think there was any cover up of a ban or anything. I just do not believe the injuries suffered were as bad as what was reported.

You believe the hospital doctors told lies?

 

[Bolder]

I believe 100 percent that the injuries were as bad as reported. However everyone reacts to different treatments in different ways, and one broken bone is not necessarily equal to another.

A friend of mine shattered his femur, as in compound fracture, in a freak ice skating accident. Had rod put in practically from hip to knee -- but within about 9 months he was almost as mobile as before.

Froome could also easily get to 80 percent of fitness but then plateau. So we'll just have to see. I think the theories that this was somehow turned into a coverup effort or fig leaf for doping are beyond ridiculous. You can ding Froome for a lot of things but not in this case.

 

[Koronin]

At this point I believe the severity of the injuries were exaggerated.