Teams & Riders Froome Talk Only

[Ripper]

Agree with the clinic stuff for Froome but its poor form to doubt the chest infection. Do you think all chest infections are the same? Nobody can win grand tours with serious chest infections it simply isn't possible. If any rider won a grand tour and said they did so with a serious chest infection then they would be lying. The aerobic demands are simply too great and a puffer does not control the build up of fluid.

In all honesty, I don't think it is poor form at all to doubt the chest infection. We know athletes have used whatever excuse fits the treatment "needed". We also know there are unscrupulous MDs out there who will also BS things. So he might have a bad chest infection. Or it might be a lot of BS.

This said, I agree that suggesting Froome's current issues are mainly related to a lack of "supplemental help", which has also been a trend, is not really an honest appraisal. All the magic potions in the world don't negate a seriously nasty crash and all of its effects. And if he did get sick, it might have had an impact. But he does seem to be consistently floating in the back of the field and not improving, race after race, for quite some time.

 

[MartinGT]

He's most probably back to clean Barloworld Froome. Sure his chest infection may have cost him 5 places on GC but when doms are dropping you on climbs whilst they're in the fun bus chatting to their mates alarm bells must be ringing in his head

On this form ISUN would be on drugs themselves to take him to the Tour.

Gwan Froomey. Get to altitude and feed some snakes

 

[gillan1969]

Agree with the clinic stuff for Froome but its poor form to doubt the chest infection. Do you think all chest infections are the same? Nobody can win grand tours with serious chest infections it simply isn't possible. If any rider won a grand tour and said they did so with a serious chest infection then they would be lying. The aerobic demands are simply too great and a puffer does not control the build up of fluid.

I don't think anything off limits after the 2011 transformation. If this is a rider who has bigger targets he shouldn't have started the stage if his chest infection was so serious. I'm merely pointing out from previous experience, the worse his health problems, the better he's been. This is a rider who has returned to his natural level - if any other pro at his age was given the chance to return to their 25 year old form they would jump at the chance......

 

[gillan1969]

lols.....

Chris Froome: Tensions between Wada and UCI over closure of investigation into 2018 salbutamol use revealed

Tensions between the World Anti-Doping Agency and cycling's governing body over the controversial closure of the investigation into four-time Tour de France winner Chris Froome's use of salbutamol in 2018 are revealed.

www.bbc.co.uk

my previous post was cut short....after the whole wiggins thing surely any journo worth their salt must know the next one to fall will be the most glaring of all recent/current riders...my speculation is that there is a PI on his case...and he literally can't get hold of the gear

loving this bit....

"We both know very well who took the initiative of closing this case and the reasons why"

now that does not refer to something currently in the public domian....

 

[Rackham]

lols.....

Chris Froome: Tensions between Wada and UCI over closure of investigation into 2018 salbutamol use revealed

Tensions between the World Anti-Doping Agency and cycling's governing body over the controversial closure of the investigation into four-time Tour de France winner Chris Froome's use of salbutamol in 2018 are revealed.

www.bbc.co.uk

my previous post was cut short....after the whole wiggins thing surely any journo worth their salt must know the next one to fall will be the most glaring of all recent/current riders...my speculation is that there is a PI on his case...and he literally can't get hold of the gear

loving this bit....

"We both know very well who took the initiative of closing this case and the reasons why"

now that does not refer to something currently in the public domian....

Interesting timing with this BBC piece, i.e. their journalists just happened to be given copies of private correspondence between the UCI & Wada at a time when Froome's performances are complete garbage & he's basically stealing a living.

Okay.

 

[Oldermanish]

Agree with the clinic stuff for Froome but its poor form to doubt the chest infection. Do you think all chest infections are the same? Nobody can win grand tours with serious chest infections it simply isn't possible. If any rider won a grand tour and said they did so with a serious chest infection then they would be lying. The aerobic demands are simply too great and a puffer does not control the build up of fluid.

Didn't Chris Horner do exactly this? He also has long term problems from it but he went nuclear to combat it and win the Vuelta.

Froome's leg/body issues are a different and apparently longer term issue.

 

[MartinGT]

Very coincidental that the Pan y Agua performances tie in with this eh?

 

[red_flanders]

Agree with the clinic stuff for Froome but its poor form to doubt the chest infection. Do you think all chest infections are the same? Nobody can win grand tours with serious chest infections it simply isn't possible. If any rider won a grand tour and said they did so with a serious chest infection then they would be lying. The aerobic demands are simply too great and a puffer does not control the build up of fluid.

You can win Romandie with it if you get your buddy Zorzoli to give you a BS TUE.

RE: the chest "infection", it should be said that I don't believe a word Froome says WRT training or health, he's lied so many times. That said, he obviously has a cough, and reasonably could have caught it this week. Is it why he isn't performing as he implied the other day? Very doubtful. He's got a new "reason" every day. The guy has absolutely no connection to the truth where any of this is concerned, so it's hardly a surprise that those who have had their intelligence insulted over the years by Froome and Sky laugh whenever he makes a claim, no matter how pedestrian. That people doubt his statements is a DIRECT result of the number and absurdity of his false statements over the years.

 

[Cookster15]

I agree Froome comes out with a new reason every day. I agree he seems to be making up excuses. I'm just pointing out that downplaying chest infections is poor. Sometimes in this sport there is an undercurrent belief that riders are weak if they don't overcome illness. If any of those who claim this had any experience racing bikes they would know its rubbish.

Didn't Chris Horner do exactly this? He also has long term problems from it but he went nuclear to combat it and win the Vuelta.

No he didn't Horner did BBs. I've never heard of super human performance that might explain Horner's ride on l'Angliru from drugs that combat flu like symptoms. Only blood bags, EPO or testosterone does that.

 

[roundabout]

No, Horner himself thinks that his lung issues started in 2014

One of the top American cyclists caught a superbug at the Tour de France that could end his racing career

The bug is called Pseudomonas aeruginosa, and Horner said it seriously affects his lungs during competition.

www.businessinsider.com

 

[samhocking]

Interesting timing with this BBC piece, i.e. their journalists just happened to be given copies of private correspondence between the UCI & Wada at a time when Froome's performances are complete garbage & he's basically stealing a living.

Okay.

Patrick Nathanson & Roan are good mates. My guess is Nathanson is looking into a Froome film/documentary and this is just some new information he's passed onto his good mate Dan Roan.

 

[samhocking]

No, Horner himself thinks that his lung issues started in 2014

One of the top American cyclists caught a superbug at the Tour de France that could end his racing career

The bug is called Pseudomonas aeruginosa, and Horner said it seriously affects his lungs during competition.

www.businessinsider.com

His issue was bacterial though wasn't it? Froome's is typically just the usual cyclists bronchitis from racing up and down mountains, but if not treated is a more serious risk because it triggers asthma. There's not that many treatments to manage asthma being triggered by chest infections and bronchial issues than some sort of substance that would require a TUE if you wanted to carry on with the race.

 

[Parker]

Patrick Nathanson & Roan are good mates. My guess is Nathanson is looking into a Froome film/documentary and this is just some new information he's passed onto his good mate Dan Roan.

The whole thing seems fairly clear to me.

1. WADA know that Salbutamol isn't really a PED but is necessary to many.
2. They put a limit on it the same as the manufacturers guidelines to stop idiots trying it out as a PED
3. They keep their old test so they can warn athletes of over use, but know a ban won't hold up at CAS with a decent lawyer. (Note all Salbutamol cases at UKAD - the only open AD - resulted in a warning)
4. The brand new UCI regime leak the test as Lappartient wants to be the conquerer of the corrupt British to the French who can appoint him to IOC membership.
5. WADA points out that this isn't going to hold up and Froome's lawyer's know it.
6. UCI eventually have to back down and try to blame WADA, who in turn blame UCI for leaking it in the first place.

 

[Summoned]

The whole thing seems fairly clear to me.

1. WADA know that Salbutamol isn't really a PED but is necessary to many.
2. They put a limit on it the same as the manufacturers guidelines to stop idiots trying it out as a PED
3. They keep their old test so they can warn athletes of over use, but know a ban won't hold up at CAS with a decent lawyer. (Note all Salbutamol cases at UKAD - the only open AD - resulted in a warning)
4. The brand new UCI regime leak the test as Lappartient wants to be the conquerer of the corrupt British to the French who can appoint him to IOC membership.
5. WADA points out that this isn't going to hold up and Froome's lawyer's know it.
6. UCI eventually have to back down and try to blame WADA, who in turn blame UCI for leaking it in the first place.

I think that it is a little disingenuous to say that Salbutamol is not a PED. Inhaled, yes, there is pretty much no evidence of it being effective at increasing function in a sustained effort. But orally, there are from my understanding several studies that indicate it builds muscle mass. While this takes time to develop, and, as such, seems unlikely to behind the testing result that created this controversy, I think that WADA would be justified in deciding to consider it worth assessing whether it had a role in an athlete’s performance.

And if that is the case, then I don’t understand how one tests only for oral Salbutamol versus inhaled.

 

[red_flanders]

All of what we know about whether it's effective is done with certain doses under specific conditions, not always useful in determining if it will work on elite athletes at high doses for supra-maximal effort and such long-duration efforts. So we really don't know it's effective. The Froome positive seemed quite likely a very large dose that hadn't yet cleared by morning. We have no idea how much he actually took, we only know that a very large amount was left in his system at the time of testing. He could have and probably did take way more the night before.

Guys do not take stuff at that level without reason and without it having been tested OOC. Sky and attention to detail, remember? Or is that line conveniently ignored when it doesn't suit those defending him?

He took a very large dose of it on a day he needed to recover, when he'd lost time at the end of a hard stage. Why? In tests with non-elite athletes under sub threshold conditions it showed increased time to exhaustion. Exactly what he needed. Is that the reason? I can't say. But I don't believe for a second they gave it to him for no reason, and the official explanation is laughable.

 

[Ripper]

All of what we know about whether it's effective is done with certain doses under specific conditions, not always useful in determining if it will work on elite athletes at high doses for supra-maximal effort and such long-duration efforts. So we really don't know it's effective. The Froome positive seemed quite likely a very large dose that hadn't yet cleared by morning. We have no idea how much he actually took, we only know that a very large amount was left in his system at the time of testing. He could have and probably did take way more the night before.

Guys do not take stuff at that level without reason and without it having been tested OOC. Sky and attention to detail, remember? Or is that line conveniently ignored when it doesn't suit those defending him?

He took a very large dose of it on a day he needed to recover, when he'd lost time at the end of a hard stage. Why? In tests with non-elite athletes under sub threshold conditions it showed increased time to exhaustion. Exactly what he needed. Is that the reason? I can't say. But I don't believe for a second they gave it to him for no reason, and the official explanation is laughable.

This really needs multiple likes!

 

[gillan1969]

The whole thing seems fairly clear to me.

1. WADA know that Salbutamol isn't really a PED but is necessary to many.
2. They put a limit on it the same as the manufacturers guidelines to stop idiots trying it out as a PED
3. They keep their old test so they can warn athletes of over use, but know a ban won't hold up at CAS with a decent lawyer. (Note all Salbutamol cases at UKAD - the only open AD - resulted in a warning)
4. The brand new UCI regime leak the test as Lappartient wants to be the conquerer of the corrupt British to the French who can appoint him to IOC membership.
5. WADA points out that this isn't going to hold up and Froome's lawyer's know it.
6. UCI eventually have to back down and try to blame WADA, who in turn blame UCI for leaking it in the first place.

lols......maybe...or pro cyclist takes PEDs....I like my odds better

 

[Oldermanish]

I agree Froome comes out with a new reason every day. I agree he seems to be making up excuses. I'm just pointing out that downplaying chest infections is poor. Sometimes in this sport there is an undercurrent belief that riders are weak if they don't overcome illness. If any of those who claim this had any experience racing bikes they would know its rubbish.

No he didn't Horner did BBs. I've never heard of super human performance that might explain Horner's ride on l'Angliru from drugs that combat flu like symptoms. Only blood bags, EPO or testosterone does that.

I should have been more specific. Horner battled respiratory issues with alot....ALOT of anti-biotic treatments. He may have offered a theory that he got a particularly nasty version but once it's gone, it's gone. Then he took whatever was necessary to ride like he did for 3 weeks and then had health issues again. Now his lungs are no muy bueno due to all of the versions of pneumonia he's tried to race with.

 

[samhocking]

All of what we know about whether it's effective is done with certain doses under specific conditions, not always useful in determining if it will work on elite athletes at high doses for supra-maximal effort and such long-duration efforts. So we really don't know it's effective. The Froome positive seemed quite likely a very large dose that hadn't yet cleared by morning. We have no idea how much he actually took, we only know that a very large amount was left in his system at the time of testing. He could have and probably did take way more the night before.

Guys do not take stuff at that level without reason and without it having been tested OOC. Sky and attention to detail, remember? Or is that line conveniently ignored when it doesn't suit those defending him?

He took a very large dose of it on a day he needed to recover, when he'd lost time at the end of a hard stage. Why? In tests with non-elite athletes under sub threshold conditions it showed increased time to exhaustion. Exactly what he needed. Is that the reason? I can't say. But I don't believe for a second they gave it to him for no reason, and the official explanation is laughable.

You're wrong on several counts there based on what is now known. Froome's daily salbutomol record on his Vuelta notes and that read in his labs urine levels showed his increasing dependence of Salbutomol due to worsening illness leading up to the AAF & not a sudden one-off amount of Salbutomol taken on the day you assume he did. That daily use with corresponding urine levels was modelled by Dr Darren Austin of Glaxo who said Froomes inhalation record despite being ramped up within WADA's rules proved the high level in the urine found could be expected. This modelling also proved 10% taking a maximum permitted inhalation amount will AAF under WADA's Salbutomol regime too. Given Glaxo doing this modelling invented Salbutomol & Dr Austin is one of the Worlds leading experts in human pharmacology, in fact Glaxo's Senior Director of Clinical Pharmacology and is telling WADA their regime is broken, doesn't really give WADA or UCI any doubt Froome is innocent, especially when before this model, WADA's own inventor of the Salbutomol regime said he messed up the testing and protocol because it only ever considered short 1 hour time frame of swimmers with full bladders not 3 week bike racing and daily inhalation.

 

[gillan1969]

You're wrong on several counts there based on what is now known. Froome's daily salbutomol record on his Vuelta notes and that read in his labs urine levels showed his increasing dependence of Salbutomol due to worsening illness leading up to the AAF & not a sudden one-off amount of Salbutomol taken on the day you assume he did. That daily use with corresponding urine levels was modelled by Dr Darren Austin of Glaxo who said Froomes inhalation record despite being ramped up within WADA's rules proved the high level in the urine found could be expected. This modelling also proved 10% taking a maximum permitted inhalation amount will AAF under WADA's Salbutomol regime too. Given Glaxo doing this modelling invented Salbutomol & Dr Austin is one of the Worlds leading experts in human pharmacology, in fact Glaxo's Senior Director of Clinical Pharmacology and is telling WADA their regime is broken, doesn't really give WADA or UCI any doubt Froome is innocent, especially when before this model, WADA's own inventor of the Salbutomol regime said he messed up the testing and protocol because it only ever considered short 1 hour time frame of swimmers with full bladders not 3 week bike racing and daily inhalation.

his self reported daily record?

 

[Rackham]

I'm sorry, I don't know whether to laugh or put on a more serious face when I see super-duper sicknotes inhaling millions of times & wailing about their illnesses... whilst blowing watts records to pieces & winning grand tours in cycling.

You're wrong on several counts there based on what is now known. Froome's daily salbutomol record on his Vuelta notes and that read in his labs urine levels showed his increasing dependence of Salbutomol due to worsening illness leading up to the AAF & not a sudden one-off amount of Salbutomol taken on the day you assume he did. That daily use with corresponding urine levels was modelled by Dr Darren Austin of Glaxo who said Froomes inhalation record despite being ramped up within WADA's rules proved the high level in the urine found could be expected. This modelling also proved 10% taking a maximum permitted inhalation amount will AAF under WADA's Salbutomol regime too. Given Glaxo doing this modelling invented Salbutomol & Dr Austin is one of the Worlds leading experts in human pharmacology, in fact Glaxo's Senior Director of Clinical Pharmacology and is telling WADA their regime is broken, doesn't really give WADA or UCI any doubt Froome is innocent, especially when before this model, WADA's own inventor of the Salbutomol regime said he messed up the testing and protocol because it only ever considered short 1 hour time frame of swimmers with full bladders not 3 week bike racing and daily inhalation.

Men with severe illness don't win the Vuelta.

 

[red_flanders]

his self reported daily record?

Thank you.

 

[Ripper]

You're wrong on several counts there based on what is now known. Froome's daily salbutomol record on his Vuelta notes and that read in his labs urine levels showed his increasing dependence of Salbutomol due to worsening illness leading up to the AAF & not a sudden one-off amount of Salbutomol taken on the day you assume he did. That daily use with corresponding urine levels was modelled by Dr Darren Austin of Glaxo who said Froomes inhalation record despite being ramped up within WADA's rules proved the high level in the urine found could be expected. This modelling also proved 10% taking a maximum permitted inhalation amount will AAF under WADA's Salbutomol regime too. Given Glaxo doing this modelling invented Salbutomol & Dr Austin is one of the Worlds leading experts in human pharmacology, in fact Glaxo's Senior Director of Clinical Pharmacology and is telling WADA their regime is broken, doesn't really give WADA or UCI any doubt Froome is innocent, especially when before this model, WADA's own inventor of the Salbutomol regime said he messed up the testing and protocol because it only ever considered short 1 hour time frame of swimmers with full bladders not 3 week bike racing and daily inhalation.

You're basically summarizing one point of view. There are other opinions on this. It is also flawed, as it is still relying on subjective information from the already identified serial liar

 

[Summoned]

You're wrong on several counts there based on what is now known. Froome's daily salbutomol record on his Vuelta notes and that read in his labs urine levels showed his increasing dependence of Salbutomol due to worsening illness leading up to the AAF & not a sudden one-off amount of Salbutomol taken on the day you assume he did. That daily use with corresponding urine levels was modelled by Dr Darren Austin of Glaxo who said Froomes inhalation record despite being ramped up within WADA's rules proved the high level in the urine found could be expected. This modelling also proved 10% taking a maximum permitted inhalation amount will AAF under WADA's Salbutomol regime too. Given Glaxo doing this modelling invented Salbutomol & Dr Austin is one of the Worlds leading experts in human pharmacology, in fact Glaxo's Senior Director of Clinical Pharmacology and is telling WADA their regime is broken, doesn't really give WADA or UCI any doubt Froome is innocent, especially when before this model, WADA's own inventor of the Salbutomol regime said he messed up the testing and protocol because it only ever considered short 1 hour time frame of swimmers with full bladders not 3 week bike racing and daily inhalation.

Have the values from Froome’s other tests during the 2017 Vuelta been made available?

 

[samhocking]

Have the values from Froome’s other tests during the 2017 Vuelta been made available?

To Froome, UCI, WADA & Glaxo of course, that's what they used to determine the PK Study wouldn't be useful as his declared Salbutomol use was not just one day like a swimmer. We know how many times he was urine tested, because he was race leader stage 3-21 and CADF test the leader of the race after every stage. So Froome has a 'known' continuous daily record of 19 doping controls in La Vuelta with a corresponding declaration of medication and amounts attached to them. All controls will be urine with a beta-2 level, blood & bio passport in addition on some days too.

Reading the comments above on his inhalation record could just be fabricated, while true to some extent, Froome (or his Dr) does have to declare his beta-2 use & the amounts taken on his doping control form each of the 19 days of controls. It's pretty clear those assumptions above by red_flanders are made not having any idea of how a doping control form works or what is filled in by the athlete/his doctor in reality. We can however, at least assume that at the time of giving his beta-2 declaration (if Salbutomol used that day) existed 19 times in a row, Froome doesn't know he would AAF on one of them. He can't possibly know what his corresponding urine level reading would be against that declaration either as he's only just finished the stage. It would be extremely easy to determine his declared use didn't match the levels found in his urine across those 19 days or had consistency to catch Froome out imo. This was the weakness in Ulissi's case - he didn't declare use and he didn't know how much he inhaled either, although his use was only one day only iirc, so PK Study was used.

Doping Control Form
3. INFORMATION FOR ANALYSIS
DECLARATION OF MEDICATION USE AND BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS: LIST ANY PRESCRIPTION / NON-PRESCRIPTION MEDICATIONS OR SUPPLEMENTS, FOR E.G. BETA-2 AGONISTS AND GLUCOCORTICOIDS, TAKEN OVER THE PAST 7 DAYS (INCLUDE DOSAGE AND DATE LAST TAKEN WHERE POSSIBLE) AND (IF A BLOOD SAMPLE IS COLLECTED) ANY BLOOD TRANSFUSIONS RECEIVED OVER THE LAST THREE MONTHS.

So we can safely assume he has a complete inhalation record with corresponding urine level 'known' by WADA, UCI, himself & Glaxo and this is what Dr Austin said he modelled against known human pharmacology for Salbutomol use.