Froome Vs. Contador

[Valv.Piti]

Re:

"I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour."
How can you know

Probably the same way Blurry can know Contador would have absolutely 'smashed' Nibali and Froome I suggest

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

It was also true that Froome was using ever ounce of strength to drop Contador and couldn't. Contador tried to come around him in the finale and couldn't, but ended on the same time. I don't call that stronger. I call that the same level.

So you are not able to understand that if one rider is following the wheel of another at about 20 Km/h or more for several Km, so doing about 15 % less effort and he cant beat him at the final it is an important difference?

I dont know of you are just not objetive or if you dont understand some basic aspect of this sport.

They were climbing at about 20 Km/h (it doendt mind %, it is the speed) and that is for one to one riders, not a group.

And this is the same for Ancares and Farrapona stages. Except if you are much better, you cant go on if you see Contador follows you from the begining, it ewas quite stupid. you have to try to get a meter.

That way he just could drop Contador in big slopes as La Camperona, although Froome is better in medium slopes respect Contador.

Of course Ancares is hard, and in the first part Froome did ok, and Contador was very strongif he keep that pace there, but the climb has a false flat and a flat (about 2 kms) and it was a mistake to pull there.

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

It was also true that Froome was using ever ounce of strength to drop Contador and couldn't. Contador tried to come around him in the finale and couldn't, but ended on the same time. I don't call that stronger. I call that the same level.

I call this bias as we all know that following wheels is easier then pulling. Froome was stronger that day.
That doesn't mean that he would've won the TdF if both stayed on their bikes that year, but that's just speculation and nothing more. Discussing that is imo pointless, we will never know.

Agree. It was different if it was on above 8%, but it averaged 6% or close to. Counting Froome's cadence the whole climb surely showed who was stronger, just as the TT before did.

the last kilometer was 8.4%...

 

[Publicus]

Re: Re:

I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour. Possibly slightly stronger in fact. He took a handful of seconds out of Contador to win the opening ITT at the Dauphine. He then followed that up by winning the next stage, a mountain top finish, where Contador was using every ounce of strength to hang on for dear life (and came 2nd to Froome).
Obviously things started to unravel for Froome when he then had a heavy crash at that Dauphine and then crashed out of the Tour very early in the race, breaking his hand.

It was also true that Froome was using ever ounce of strength to drop Contador and couldn't. Contador tried to come around him in the finale and couldn't, but ended on the same time. I don't call that stronger. I call that the same level.

So you are not able to understand that if one rider is following the wheel of another at about 20 Km/h or more for several Km, so doing about 15 % less effort and he cant beat him at the final it is an important difference?

I dont know of you are just not objetive or if you dont understand some basic aspect of this sport.

They were climbing at about 20 Km/h (it doendt mind %, it is the speed) and that is for one to one riders, not a group.

And this is the same for Ancares and Farrapona stages. Except if you are much better, you cant go on if you see Contador follows you from the begining, it ewas quite stupid. you have to try to get a meter.

That way he just could drop Contador in big slopes as La Camperona, although Froome is better in medium slopes respect Contador.

Of course Ancares is hard, and in the first part Froome did ok, and Contador was very strongif he keep that pace there, but the climb has a false flat and a flat (about 2 kms) and it was a mistake to pull there.

I certainly won't pretend to know the science around drafting--though I do appreciate the effort to dismiss me as ignorant. I was only referring to the final 500m or so when Froome went all out to drop Contador and Contador attempted to come around. The whole stage was a push in my opinion, with Froome being the aggressor and Contador, as per usual with the Dauphine, choosing to follow (save for that final portion).

PS Non-scientist that I am, I would assume those figures you quoted would be considerably different depending on the gradient (I would guess those maximum figures are predicated on 0% incline).

 

[burning]

To be honest, saving %18 at 20km/h seems to be way too much, but someone with more knowledge can confirm that.

 

[Taxus4a]

Re: Re:

I wonder why no one said/say right now Monfort would be the best GT rider ever based on 2007 Vuelta.

He was exactly same age as Froome (edit: I realized he was 1 year older, but who cares):

9th in final ITT, beating Hansen, Chavanel, CVV, Sastre, Backstedt, LLS and many more.
9th and 11th in final two mountain stages beating guys like Evans, Chechu, Horner, Anton, Moreno, Barredo, Beltran, Krezuiger and many more.
And he finished 11th in GC beating..., I guess you get the point.

Anyone can make a BS story after you see what happened, I would love to see any post about him before 2011 Vuelta, not after he somehow become the next big thing.

If you read my article you can get some answers, there is everything before Vuelta 2011, but I am quite sure you are nor really interested, and if you write that you has never investigated.

I put it again, the article and a video before that Vuelta (sorry to put it over an over, but some people ask always over and over the same things, it is not my blame):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPd4aZQmDuQ

http://patrimoniociclista.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/an-unpolished-diamond-story-of-chris.html



But nobody can exactly say who is going to be the best in that case.
When lot of riders shows potential at 20,22,24, you cant say who I going to become to a very good GT contender.
as you can see on my article he was rated high by Corti, and his first test in Europe got amazed to the people, the same as Quintana in Colombia. It was the same in his first with SKY.


it is not a surprise Froome did, but it wont be a surprise for other riders as well. When Froome started we were in other era, so he had to pass more obstacles than others to reach the top.

I at least realized and I wrote in 2008 I was impresed by Froome.

Show me any post about Froome before 2011 Vuelta and I will shut up forever, otherwise you are talking complete nonsense. For example, there was quite a lot of hype about Quintana before 2012 Vuelta or 2013 Tour, so they are not comperable at all.

Monfort is not of the age of Froome, but there was a lot of promising riders of his age at about 85-86...but not all can reach the top.

Monfort is 2 year older than Froome, so there is only 1 year difference between him and Froome and he was definitely more impressive in Vuelta 2007 compared to Tour 2008.

So, did you follow Monfort and predicted that he would be the next big thing? By the way, Badzilla is pure BS, they even don't have a proper story and their statements keeps on contradicting each other.

The article is full of links...

Your questions need a long answer... you need time to read that and later you can came here to discus with me all you want, I wrote that with the only purpose to explain the question people as you have, no more intention. so for me is now stupid to expalin again. READ!

did you see the video I put?? Wht you ask me things if you dont do anything?

it is necesary to read the story how is written, but anyway as yiu are lazy I will put some links for you:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/froome-taking-great-strides/
http://www.letelegramme.com/sports/cyclisme/tour-de-france/tour-et-detours-froome-forme-par-un-breton-11-07-2012-1770919.php
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/riders/2008/interviews/?id=chris_froome_nov08

This is already in SKY in 2010, but you asked me before Vuelta 2011.

https://www.britishcycling.org.uk/road/article/roa20100111-Team-Sky-s-Unpolished-Diamond--Chris-Froome-0

(I think is better to read the article, becouse I took what is important...but you wanted this way...worse for you...)

 

[Taxus4a]

Re:

To be honest, saving %18 at 20km/h seems to be way too much, but someone with more knowledge can confirm that.

I put 15 becouse 18 is maybe too much, It is depends on the wind , direction and strenght, the side of the front riders... but at 40 Km/h is 30, that I know for sure and in the middle of a peloton, almost 50 in relation to the main worker.

Hope you are lucky to find people with more knowledge in cyclsin than me. At least in this kind of phisics issues

 

[Taxus4a]

I was joking, I am looking more information,I think that graphics are bad, at 10 km h, maybe the aire resistence is 7 %, but just behind a rider you dont eliminate all of that... below 10 is more or less usseless, at 10 Km/h could be 2 % advantage, at 20 Km/kh about 10 % advantage, no less, and at 30 about 25% and 40 about 30.

It is what I have heard always and what I would say bu experience.

but if after 2 Km behind a rider going at 20km/h you are at the ame level, you are clearle weeker.

That is from first course of cycling.

 

[Taxus4a]

I think this is more reliable, but I am not sure.

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-rcbFSW_S2b8/UVud495EcFI/AAAAAAAAAJM/fQ-Fq7oYh8U/s1600/draft+2.JPG

Anyway at 20, it looks there is the ame, but one could be at 50 and the other at 45, and that is a 10 % advantage. The graphics is not enough accourate

 

[Taxus4a]

Tell me, wich no doper young promissing riders where doing better in that Tour than Froome?

http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=8024

Tell me just one. (as you said)

Yeah... Andy (ejem.. go to clinic if you want to dissccus,and I was more fan of Andy than I could be for Froome...)

Kreuziger, but he showed worse in that final ITT, a good termometer for potential for 3 weeks.

He beated Mollema and Rui Costa in Giro delle regione instead his crashs,he beated him the most important day, and he was quite fat then...

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

"I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour."
How can you know

Probably the same way Blurry can know Contador would have absolutely 'smashed' Nibali and Froome I suggest

right on the money.

bertie making a significant step forward in the 2009 tour compared to the 2009 dauphine form guarantees the same would occurred in 2014 at 200%. and if you are not going with me on this, keep being ignorant.

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

To be honest, saving %18 at 20km/h seems to be way too much, but someone with more knowledge can confirm that.

I'd guess it's the amount you'd save on a flat road. So you'd save 18% of air resistance, which in itself isn't too much when climbing at 8%+

 

[buchanan]

Re:

"I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour."
How can you know

I can't know 100%, but I can certainly make a rational, logical argument for it:
Based on Froome's form at the Dauphine (before he crashed heavily). Froome won the opening 10km ITT. Contador finished 2nd eight seconds back at more or less same time as Kelderman, Talansky, Jungels. Froome had daylight to everyone though. He also won the mountain top finish next day and took the bonus seconds over Contador. Contador even had the advantage of drafting Froome to the finish. The fact that Contador could only hang onto Froome's back wheel (barely) and not come round him for the stage win (which was worth bonus seconds plus would have been a very important psychological boost) strongly suggests Froome was the stronger. Unless beating someone 2 days in a row in a TT and in a MTF means you are weaker than the guy who came 2nd?

There is no reason to think Froome would not have still had this slight edge a couple of weeks later at the Tour. He of course crashed out very early on, but I recall he looked very strong on a steep hill before the finish on one of the early UK stages. Nibali won that particular stage, but you could see Froome was going very well.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

"I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour."
How can you know

I can't know 100%, but I can certainly make a rational, logical argument for it:
Based on Froome's form at the Dauphine (before he crashed heavily). Froome won the opening 10km ITT. Contador finished 2nd eight seconds back at more or less same time as Kelderman, Talansky, Jungels. Froome had daylight to everyone though. He also won the mountain top finish next day and took the bonus seconds over Contador. Contador even had the advantage of drafting Froome to the finish. The fact that Contador could only hang onto Froome's back wheel (barely) and not come round him for the stage win (which was worth bonus seconds plus would have been a very important psychological boost) strongly suggests Froome was the stronger. Unless beating someone 2 days in a row in a TT and in a MTF means you are weaker than the guy who came 2nd?

There is no reason to think Froome would not have still had this slight edge a couple of weeks later at the Tour. He of course crashed out very early on, but I recall he looked very strong on a steep hill before the finish on one of the early UK stages. Nibali won that particular stage, but you could see Froome was going very well.

Romandie vs Pais Vasco. There's a reason.

 

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

"I'm a Contador fan and I agree with Taxus that Froome was at least as strong as Contador in 2014 at the Dauphine and Tour."
How can you know

I can't know 100%, but I can certainly make a rational, logical argument for it:
Based on Froome's form at the Dauphine (before he crashed heavily). Froome won the opening 10km ITT. Contador finished 2nd eight seconds back at more or less same time as Kelderman, Talansky, Jungels. Froome had daylight to everyone though. He also won the mountain top finish next day and took the bonus seconds over Contador. Contador even had the advantage of drafting Froome to the finish. The fact that Contador could only hang onto Froome's back wheel (barely) and not come round him for the stage win (which was worth bonus seconds plus would have been a very important psychological boost) strongly suggests Froome was the stronger. Unless beating someone 2 days in a row in a TT and in a MTF means you are weaker than the guy who came 2nd?

There is no reason to think Froome would not have still had this slight edge a couple of weeks later at the Tour. He of course crashed out very early on, but I recall he looked very strong on a steep hill before the finish on one of the early UK stages. Nibali won that particular stage, but you could see Froome was going very well.

that's pretty much commonly believed that bertie always has a bigger room for improvement between the dauphine and the tour as compared with froomey. what do you think about that?

 

[ILovecycling]

Re: Re:

To be honest, saving %18 at 20km/h seems to be way too much, but someone with more knowledge can confirm that.

I'd guess it's the amount you'd save on a flat road. So you'd save 18% of air resistance, which in itself isn't too much when climbing at 8%+

Its about speed not a percentage , otoh 18% seems to much to me also.

 

[Red Rick]

Re: Re:

To be honest, saving %18 at 20km/h seems to be way too much, but someone with more knowledge can confirm that.

I'd guess it's the amount you'd save on a flat road. So you'd save 18% of air resistance, which in itself isn't too much when climbing at 8%+

Its about speed not a percentage , otoh 18% seems to much to me also.

That's what I say, it's a percentage of air resistance, and the steeper it gets, the lower the proportion of resistance comes from that

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

Re: Re:

I wonder why no one said/say right now Monfort would be the best GT rider ever based on 2007 Vuelta.

He was exactly same age as Froome (edit: I realized he was 1 year older, but who cares):

9th in final ITT, beating Hansen, Chavanel, CVV, Sastre, Backstedt, LLS and many more.
9th and 11th in final two mountain stages beating guys like Evans, Chechu, Horner, Anton, Moreno, Barredo, Beltran, Krezuiger and many more.
And he finished 11th in GC beating..., I guess you get the point.

Anyone can make a BS story after you see what happened, I would love to see any post about him before 2011 Vuelta, not after he somehow become the next big thing.

If you read my article you can get some answers, there is everything before Vuelta 2011, but I am quite sure you are nor really interested, and if you write that you has never investigated.

I put it again, the article and a video before that Vuelta (sorry to put it over an over, but some people ask always over and over the same things, it is not my blame):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lPd4aZQmDuQ

http://patrimoniociclista.blogspot.com.es/2013/06/an-unpolished-diamond-story-of-chris.html



But nobody can exactly say who is going to be the best in that case.
When lot of riders shows potential at 20,22,24, you cant say who I going to become to a very good GT contender.
as you can see on my article he was rated high by Corti, and his first test in Europe got amazed to the people, the same as Quintana in Colombia. It was the same in his first with SKY.


it is not a surprise Froome did, but it wont be a surprise for other riders as well. When Froome started we were in other era, so he had to pass more obstacles than others to reach the top.

I at least realized and I wrote in 2008 I was impresed by Froome.

Show me any post about Froome before 2011 Vuelta and I will shut up forever, otherwise you are talking complete nonsense. For example, there was quite a lot of hype about Quintana before 2012 Vuelta or 2013 Tour, so they are not comperable at all.

Monfort is not of the age of Froome, but there was a lot of promising riders of his age at about 85-86...but not all can reach the top.

Monfort is 2 year older than Froome, so there is only 1 year difference between him and Froome and he was definitely more impressive in Vuelta 2007 compared to Tour 2008.

So, did you follow Monfort and predicted that he would be the next big thing? By the way, Badzilla is pure BS, they even don't have a proper story and their statements keeps on contradicting each other.

I never understood this meme. There are many posts from years before 2011 tipping Froome as a top 10 GT GC competitor.

The recent rise in the climbing abilities of Bradley Wiggins has surely not gone un-noticed. With the formation of Team Sky, do you think this would be his major motivation (i.e securing a place on their roster), or was he really here at the Giro with realistic aims of helping van de Velde in the mountains?


Britain needs a climbing sensation... especially if Team Sky is to win the Tour with a British rider. Anyone think Wiggins could change his style enough? or is there someone else out there now in the pro ranks who could fill this niche?

Chris Froome?

With the British track setup undoubtedly translating into Team Sky/GB, would it not be a failure/disappointment to just get results in time-trialing and fat races?

Any thoughts? Will Team Sky succeed without a host of foreign guidership and domestiques?

 

[vedrafjord]

Wow, that wins the Nostradamus Award for most prescient post of all time.

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Re:

Wow, that wins the Nostradamus Award for most prescient post of all time.

Another one in the same thread:

To answer your question though, I see Chris Froome and Dan Lloyd as being the two Brit riders that may go for overall victory at a Grand Tour if they end up on the Sky team, it would not surprise me to see Dan Fleeman involved in the squad too.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Re: Re:

Wow, that wins the Nostradamus Award for most prescient post of all time.

Another one in the same thread:

To answer your question though, I see Chris Froome and Dan Lloyd as being the two Brit riders that may go for overall victory at a Grand Tour if they end up on the Sky team, it would not surprise me to see Dan Fleeman involved in the squad too.

Dan Lloyd

 

[CheckMyPecs]

Hey, you can't win them all!

 

[myrideissteelerthanyours]

04 Jun 2009 11:17
"'Ive seen a quote saying they think Chris Froome will be the next big thing and that he could be a genuine tour contender. I fully expect to see him riding for Sky [...] As for Cav joining not a prayer! "

also who says El Dawg never got results early...

28 Jun 2009 16:32
"amazingly cyclingnews is reporting Chris Froome got 4th in the Spanish National Road Race.

1 Rubén Plaza (Liberty Seguros)
2 Constantino Zaballa (Paredes Rota dos Móveis)
3 Alejandro Valverde (Caisse d'Epargne)
4 Chris Froome (Barloworld)"

 

[Carols]

Re:

04 Jun 2009 11:17
"'Ive seen a quote saying they think Chris Froome will be the next big thing and that he could be a genuine tour contender. I fully expect to see him riding for Sky [...] As for Cav joining not a prayer! "

also who says El Dawg never got results early...

28 Jun 2009 16:32
"amazingly cyclingnews is reporting Chris Froome got 4th in the Spanish National Road Race.

1 Rubén Plaza (Liberty Seguros)
2 Constantino Zaballa (Paredes Rota dos Móveis)
3 Alejandro Valverde (Caisse d'Epargne)
4 Chris Froome (Barloworld)"

Amazingly he did Not come 4th in the SPANISH National Road Race.

2009
1st Stage 2 Giro del Capo
1st Anatomic Jock Race
4th National Road Race Championships --- BRITISH 2009--- Kristian House Daniel Lloyd Peter Kennaugh All thse other GT winners (NOT) in front of him.....
9th Gran Premio Nobili Rubinetterie

 

[TMP402]

Re: Re:

Amazingly he did Not come 4th in the SPANISH National Road Race.

2009
1st Stage 2 Giro del Capo
1st Anatomic Jock Race
4th National Road Race Championships --- BRITISH 2009--- Kristian House Daniel Lloyd Peter Kennaugh All thse other GT winners (NOT) in front of him.....
9th Gran Premio Nobili Rubinetterie

So future GT winners can never be beaten by non-GT winners? Got it. Can we check if Fabio Aru ever finished lower than 1st in a race?

Coming off the top of the climb of the Tumble, Bradley Wiggins and Chris Froome had finally broken clear in what was to be the significant move of the race. They had some two minutes plus on the chase group.

However, Wiggins eventually came back to the chasers as the race moved onto the finishing circuit for the first time. Froome continued to lead lap after lap, with a fragmented chase group behind him. When he was finally caught, it was by a quality trio, namely Peter Kennaugh, Daniel Lloyd and Kristian House, who had themselves broken free of what remained of the main field. Froome looked around, took a quick breather and then went again. Initially, no-one wanted to chase him and even on the final lap with the other the playing cat and mouse he continued to attack in the hope of stealing the win.

However, he was finally reeled in one last time and dropped back leaving the way clear for a thrilling final sprint