Froome's SRM data on Ventoux

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Mar 10, 2009
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Melo said:
That 7.04 w/kg is the Peak Power Output.
Yeah that's a bit of an estimation stretch. I mean estimating power from climbs has its random error, now we are adding in other assumptions to extrapolate to PPO (or MAP)? I say MAP because PPO test protocol is same as for MAP tests we use with elite level riders.

Anyway, for reference the normal range for the ratio of threshold power to PPO (MAP) is 72% - 77%, and there are of course those that fall outside that range.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Zam_Olyas said:
Dear Wiggo said:
He said the same of Armstrong, I am pretty certain.

Ah yes July 2006:

CKVqYdnWgAAyUCU.png:large
Good find..where did you get it from?

By all means, please, keep going - nothing I've written can be construed as a defence of Armstrong or the veracity of the data itself. Rather, I was simply pointing out that the conclusions drawn by Ed were entirely consistent with data he collected and presented, meaning that any editor or reviewer wouldn't and couldn't have rejected the paper on that basis.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
the ratio of threshold power to PPO (MAP) is 72% - 77%, and there are of course those that fall outside that range.

Depending, of course, on the rate of increase in power during such a test.

Moreover, as you say there is a significant range - in my case, for example, it is (was) well over 80%, even with 25 W increments every other minute.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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acoggan said:
Alex Simmons/RST said:
the ratio of threshold power to PPO (MAP) is 72% - 77%, and there are of course those that fall outside that range.

Depending, of course, on the rate of increase in power during such a test.

Moreover, as you say there is a significant range - in my case, for example, it is (was) well over 80%, even with 25 W increments every other minute.
Yep. I've probably got some cross post reading going on - and was thinking of the last study I read* that referred to PPO used a 20W/min rate of increase in power and PPO was 1-min mean max power from such a test protocol. It shows a correlation between PPO and 40km TT power had an r of 0.9 with SEE of 14W which given the average 40km TT power of participants of 254W so SEE is around the 5-6% range.

http://www.researchgate.net/profile/Robert_Lamberts/publication/51552099_Allometric_scaling_of_peak_power_output_accurately_predicts_time_trial_performance_and_maximal_oxygen_consumption_in_trained_cyclists/links/00b7d5200f6f12dd5c000000.pdf


* in the context of this broader conversation of dope-o-meters but perhaps not this thread/forum
 
Apr 13, 2011
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miha1234 said:
jilbiker said:
A HR of 160? When I heard about that figure on Ventoux, I said absurd. Its impossible except....perhaps some form of Beta-blocker. There was a time I was taking a beta-blocker for medical reasons, it was amazing when I played high intensity games like squash, my heart was literally silent, almost oblivious to what was going on outside. As long as my legs were good, I could play for hrs.

I think we may have hit Froome's amazing juice, its some form of beta blocker. I wonder if they test for that in cycling? I know one sport that they test for that - Archery - because you rest the bow on your chest so a silent heart means you bow is more steady. Even if they test for that in cycling he may have a new not detected one.


This is nonsense, if you have every used beta-blockers you would know that your heard rate is suppresed and when you try to do some intense workout you can barley move...
If he would used Beta-blockers he would be the last one on every climb...


Not only this, but pros have posted when they are exhausted and the heart naturally can no longer increase and pump the blood necessary. Some can't get their HR over 115bpm when exhausted, they just can't turn the pedals.

Then again, the #1 followed Pro on Strava, Laurens Ten Dam has all his power files that show his HR. He averages on a typical stage like 118bpm the entire time.

Only the second stage of the TDF with the crazy winds and insane speed 29mph average, his HR avg 145bpm approx with peaks up around 180bpm. Otherwise, the guys HR never goes up above 120bpm average while racing. So to say Froome's HR at 140bpm approx while climbing is crazy...not really. Although his peak during those times is not as high as others..that is what makes things interesting.
 
Nov 5, 2013
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Dear Wiggo said:
He said the same of Armstrong, I am pretty certain.

Ah yes July 2006:

CKVqYdnWgAAyUCU.png:large
We've had our differences, and I am certain that you didn't dig that up because he challenged me, but I still appreciate the uncovering of this post and the ones that follow. Quite frankly, I didn't really have the time to go back and look at what he's written on the subject of Armstrong and Coyle, but I certainly remembered his defense of both, though he completely denied that a day or two ago.

So I am guessing this is what passes for "unassailable credibility" in Coggan's world. I guess the NYT will interview anyone?
 
Nov 5, 2013
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acoggan said:
Zam_Olyas said:
Dear Wiggo said:
He said the same of Armstrong, I am pretty certain.

Ah yes July 2006:

CKVqYdnWgAAyUCU.png:large
Good find..where did you get it from?

By all means, please, keep going - nothing I've written can be construed as a defence of Armstrong or the veracity of the data itself. Rather, I was simply pointing out that the conclusions drawn by Ed were entirely consistent with data he collected and presented, meaning that any editor or reviewer wouldn't and couldn't have rejected the paper on that basis.

You may not be able to smell your own bullsh!t, but most of the rest of us can Mr. Unassailable Credibility... :rolleyes:
 
Apr 13, 2011
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Mods, get control is this thread....getting stupid once again around here. Blah blah blah...VO2 max...blah blah blah LT......

Where is the thread about Quintana with all of this same crap??? He has been doing nearly identically what Froome has been doing, just .01% less of it by the numbers. How is it he is never questioned, yet Froome is the dopers of all dopers, even Lance??
 
Sep 29, 2012
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zigmeister said:
Mods, get control is this thread....getting stupid once again around here. Blah blah blah...VO2 max...blah blah blah LT......

Where is the thread about Quintana with all of this same crap??? He has been doing nearly identically what Froome has been doing, just .01% less of it by the numbers. How is it he is never questioned, yet Froome is the dopers of all dopers, even Lance??

Man up and start one. Wait for the flood of defenders. You could be on a winner here, ziggidy!!
 
Jul 15, 2013
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zigmeister said:
Mods, get control is this thread....getting stupid once again around here. Blah blah blah...VO2 max...blah blah blah LT......

Where is the thread about Quintana with all of this same crap??? He has been doing nearly identically what Froome has been doing, just .01% less of it by the numbers. How is it he is never questioned, yet Froome is the dopers of all dopers, even Lance??
Quintana is half the size of Froome, won l'Avenir and various other races when young instead of just coming out of nowhere at age 26, and he still lost a minute to Froome on the first mountain stage
He also doesn't get medals in pancake flat olympic TTs
While I believe he dopes, all of the above makes his doping slightly less blatant than Froome's

But go ahead and make a Quintana thread, surely some people will defend him
 
Jun 14, 2010
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zigmeister said:
Mods, get control is this thread....getting stupid once again around here. Blah blah blah...VO2 max...blah blah blah LT......

Where is the thread about Quintana with all of this same crap??? He has been doing nearly identically what Froome has been doing, just .01% less of it by the numbers. How is it he is never questioned, yet Froome is the dopers of all dopers, even Lance??

Mods. Could you make "don't complain about threads not being started when you are capable of starting one yourself" a rule on the rules thread.
 
Jul 17, 2015
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Two slightly contradictory news items in cyclingnews just now.

Brailsford saying he might release some limited data.

Lemond saying that Froome's performance is plausibly normal, but no good trying to assess it on just one day. Also calls for total transparency and data release.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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wendybnt said:
Two slightly contradictory news items in cyclingnews just now.

Brailsford saying he might release some limited data.

Lemond saying that Froome's performance is plausibly normal, but no good trying to assess it on just one day. Also calls for total transparency and data release.

Brailsford repeated his calls for the UCI to add a power analysis element to its current biological passport system.

He should talk to all the people in this thread and especially the FTP Passport thread who explained why this wouldn’t help at all.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/brailsford-considers-releasing-limited-froome-data-on-tour-de-france-rest-day
 
Aug 4, 2011
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zigmeister said:
Mods, get control is this thread....getting stupid once again around here. Blah blah blah...VO2 max...blah blah blah LT......

Where is the thread about Quintana with all of this same crap??? He has been doing nearly identically what Froome has been doing, just .01% less of it by the numbers. How is it he is never questioned, yet Froome is the dopers of all dopers, even Lance??

Your posts remind me of one of my mates. Froome fastest average speed up ax3 in 2013 ...faster then every full on doper that has been busted including Armstrong .....but you will say its a tailwind or its his special pillow etc :D
Its not possible to go that fast unless you are doing something naughty. FACT
 
Mar 18, 2009
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ChewbaccaDefense said:
I didn't really have the time to go back and look at what he's written on the subject of Armstrong and Coyle, but I certainly remembered his defense of both, though he completely denied that a day or two ago.

Your memory is faulty. I've never defended Armstrong, or really even Ed's actions. What I have done is 1) defend the process by which the paper was published, and 2) attempted to provide insight/context into Ed's motivations in publishing it in the 1st place.

ChewbaccaDefense said:
So I am guessing this is what passes for "unassailable credibility" in Coggan's world.

If by that you mean unemotional, logically-constructed positions that don't change on a whim and to which someone signs their real name, then yes.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Merckx index said:
But there is no evidence at all for an inverse relationship between utilization and V02max, is there?

I can think of reasons why you might expect them to be, but even if they are completely independent from a physiological perspective you might very still find an inverse relationship in the peloton as a whole, simply due to selection pressures. Indeed, that is precisely the argument that Tucker and Noakes originally put forth to explain the inverse relationship between VO2max and efficiency observed by Lucia et al.:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15179181

Only later did Tucker reverse-course and then cite Lucia et al.'s paper as why certain performances were "superhuman."

I
Merckx index said:
In his interview with Kimmage last year, Froome claimed his V02max was measured at about 85 in 2008 or 2009. At 90% of that, an efficiency of about 23% would be enough for 6 watts/kg.

Thanks for that. Certainly makes 6+ W/kg all the more believable.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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ray j willings said:
Brailsford points out Oval rings could make the difference :D
People might want to make fun of his comment, but the artificial inflation of power readings due to use of these rings on spider based power meters (e.g. SRM) is a real factor, and it is a variable error, varying depending on a few factors (e.g. inertial load, nature of torque application) which in lay terms means the error is likely to be bigger on climbs than on flat terrain.

Consider also that Sky have used Stages power meters since 2014, well we can have even less confidence in the accuracy of power data (if released) due to the natural variability in left/right power balance.
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
ray j willings said:
Brailsford points out Oval rings could make the difference :D
People might want to make fun of his comment, but the artificial inflation of power readings due to use of these rings on spider based power meters (e.g. SRM) is a real factor, and it is a variable error, varying depending on a few factors (e.g. inertial load, nature of torque application) which in lay terms means the error is likely to be bigger on climbs than on flat terrain.

Consider also that Sky have used Stages power meters since 2014, well we can have even less confidence in the accuracy of power data (if released) due to the natural variability in left/right power balance.

Now, now, Alex - how dare you puncture anyone's fantasy balloon by introducing actual facts into this thread.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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There are three studies that I know of that have reported very high efficiencies, all in elite riders: Lucia et al, Santalla et al and Sallet et al. If Andy C knows others, he’s welcome to post links and I’ll add them to the discussion. Let’s assume all the subjects in these studies could put out 90% of their V02max for an extended period of time. How many would be capable of > 6.0 W/kg.?

Lucia study. From the graph posted upthread, one can get V02max and GE values for individual riders. It appears that only 2/11 riders in this study would be > 6.0 W/kg, and they had very high efficiencies, 27-28%. The highest V02max values in the group were 82-83, but with GE values that indicate only about 5.6 W/kg.

Santalla study: Only DE values were measured, but it appears that only 1/12 subjects might be in the 6.0 W/kg range. This rider had a V02max of about 80 with a DE of 30%. He would need a GE of about 25.5%. There were three V02max values of about 85 or higher, but again, they were associated with GE values that would indicate significantly less power than 6.0 W/kg.

Sallet study. I can’t access the full paper and get individual values, if they report them, but they reported a mean V02max of climbers in their study of 78.2 +/- 5.5, and the mean GE was 25.6 +/- 2.6% for the professional group. A combination of the two means implies a power value just below 6.0 W/kg. There were 24 climbers in the study, but I don’t know how many were in the professional group, which had a higher mean efficiency. They didn’t report an inverse relationship between V02max and efficiency, though, so it would appear there would be several above 6.0 W/kg. If we assume half the 24 climbers were in the pro group, half had a V02max above the mean, and half had a GE above the mean, that would be three. There might be one or two in the amateur group as well.

So speaking very roughly, about 10% of the subjects in these studies might be over 6.0 W/kg. I want to emphasize again, though, that this assumes 90% utilization, which presumably is not a 100% certainty, but would need to be factored into the probability. Also, the studies are not strictly comparable, because the kind of riders studied might not be quite the same (the Santalla study looked at the crème de la crème, and the Sallet study isolated climbers as a group, while Lucia AFAIK did not select just climbers or GT specialists). And finally, the Sallet study apparently found no inverse relationship.

Another relevant figure we can glean from these studies is the proportion of riders with high V02 max values. In the Lucia study, 2/11 > 80,and none > 85; in the Santalla study, it was 3/12 > 80, with 2 > 85, and the other just about at that value. In the study by Moseley et al., which also examined elite riders, but found much lower efficiencies, it was 2-3/16 > 80, none > 85. So—again bearing in mind some differences in the composition of the subjects—it seems that very roughly about 20% of these elite riders had a V02max > 80, < 10% > 85, and none > 90.

A final point I want to make is the possible effect of doping. Andy Coggan, I think it was, argued that if these riders were blood doping at some point relevant to when they were tested, it would be reflected in higher V02max values, but not in higher efficiencies. And in the Santalla study, which reported an increase in efficiencies over a four year period, there was no change at all in V02max.

However, the situation is potentially more complex. Acute blood doping—EPO and/or transfusions—would be expected to raise V02max, but the effect would be reversed when the doping stopped. So if, e.g., the Santalla study measured these riders at the end of the season or in the off-season, when they probably would not be doping, one would not expect to see a change in V02max.

The same is not necessarily true for efficiency, though. Though EPO is known to cycling fans as the hormone that increases the synthesis of red blood cell precursors and thus HT, it has many other effects and potential effects, some well documented, some controversial. Particularly relevant to this discussion, EPO is well known to promote angiogenesis, or the formation of new blood vessels, and some studies have shown that it increases proliferation and enzymatic activity of mitochondria. All of these effects are candidates as possible processes underlying increases in efficiency. The mitochondrial effects are fairly well documented in heart muscle—where they could potentially augment the effects of EPO in increasing HT by increasing blood flow and V02max—but some studies have also claimed such effects in skeletal muscle, along with increases in size of the muscle, where they might show up as increases in efficiency, not in V02max. The best evidence comes from studies of diseased patients, rather than healthy ones, who might not seem to be very relevant to elite riders, but keep in mind that pro cyclists operate on the edge of metabolic breakdown, and in some respects really are not like healthy controls.

The evidence that EPO can enhance skeletal muscle function is controversial; there’s certainly no consensus on this yet. But assuming that EPO might have these effects—very possibly differing markedly in degree from one rider to the next—one might expect them to be more stable than the effects on HT. That is, increases in mitochondrial number and/or activity, or muscle fiber size, would probably be somewhat more enduring than effects on HT. So it’s at least conceivable that if riders were taking EPO for significant period of time every year, they could enhance their muscle function semi-permanently, so that it would result in measurable changes even when they were not taking the drug.

Again, this is all speculation, but certainly something to bear in mind. Here's a recent review of the subject: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3710958/
 
Sep 29, 2012
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I would have thought increased blood vessel proliferation through the muscle (via angiogenesis) would improve efficiency? More pipes to transport oxygen and glycogen / fuel and extract CO2?
 
Jul 20, 2015
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acoggan said:
ChewbaccaDefense said:
I didn't really have the time to go back and look at what he's written on the subject of Armstrong and Coyle, but I certainly remembered his defense of both, though he completely denied that a day or two ago.

Your memory is faulty. I've never defended Armstrong, or really even Ed's actions. What I have done is 1) defend the process by which the paper was published, and 2) attempted to provide insight/context into Ed's motivations in publishing it in the 1st place.

If by that you mean unemotional, logically-constructed positions that don't change on a whim and to which someone signs their real name, then yes.

It might be helpful to see that this unemotional, logically-constructed position has often missed drawing the otherwise obvious conclusion that these performances were not natural.
 
Jul 20, 2015
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I'll point out that Dave Brailsford is no dummy, nor is he naive about what he is involved in.
I'd guess that a good part of his reluctance to be transparent in this particular case, boils down to him simply having no real explanation as to how a glorified pro-conti domestique has become the greatest cyclist in history.

As the head of the biggest and most well funded team on Earth, not having the slightest clue about this, must be quite scary. So rather than appear clueless, he makes up all kind of crap about pillows, and juice, and so forth- and the lapdog media is only too willing to let it slide.

Because really...he cant be that stupid.