Froome's SRM data on Ventoux

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

5. I don't care whose data it was, stealing and theft is not cool and is wrong. Condoning it is poor form. I'd be pretty pissed off if any of my or my client's data was stolen, or was used without permission.

6. As for Vayer, he can be mathematically challenged at times and doesn't let the facts get in the way of generating publicity. I'd suggest looking to someone far more credible when it came to estimates of and/or analysis of power data. Becoming a thief further diminishes one's credibility, although I have no idea who was responsible for such theft. Knowingly using stolen data is still piss poor.

Common definition of data theft as I understand it:

Data theft is the act of stealing computer-based information from an unknowing victim with the intent of compromising privacy or obtaining confidential information. Data theft is increasingly a problem for individual computer users, as well as big corporate firms. There is more than one way to steal data.

This is not a case of whistleblowing some form of monstrous illegal activity such as torture or illegal killings. It's stealing one's personal property. If a scientist is knowingly using illegally or unethically obtained data, they have zero credibility IMO. I'd expect any credible scientist to distance themselves from those that obtain their data in this manner.

Just curious if you have ever ranted / vented like this when a doper has been caught, Alex?

It almost seems as if someone "stealing" training data is a grosser action than stealing someone's livelihood by doping for you?

 

[acoggan]

Re: Re:

Back to the interesting storylines though, is his static heartrate during his attack. Whatever the number is, it should change. My intuition says that even thinking about attacking should change it. Unless there is a HR monitor machine calibration error, the only explanation is a motor.

I may have diluted my point: the lack of raise in HR is what struck me the most and what I can't understand.

One point I haven't seen mentioned by anyone else is the fact that heart rate monitors use noise-rejection algorithms to minimize artifacts due to, e.g., a PVC, the strap moving on the skin, etc. Those same algorithms also damp the response of the reported heart rate relative to actual changes.

That said, I suspect that the fact that his heart rate was already high relative to his own known low maximum had a lot to do with things.

But then if bpm couldn't go higher because he was so close to his MHR, he wouldn't have been able to sustain his effort the way he did. You can only go so long at 90% or more of your MHR.

Longer than you seem to think, though. For example, back when I used a HR monitor I would average 94% of maximum during a typical 40 km TT. I would of course try to go "full gas" the final minute or two, but my HR would only rise a few beats/min.

 

[DirtyWorks]

[quote="
So Strava does some post processing of the power meter data?
Generating a number akin to Normalized Power?

OK, I'm now thinking Dear Wiggo's alarm at the dodgy Strava numbers (in another thread I think) was well justified.

I was under the impression that data on Strava from a power meter was unadulterated.

As a GIS geek, Strava isn't accurate. At all. They make nice pictures and graphs and stats, but largely, it's all made up. Dodgy is the best word to describe Strava's output.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Re: Re:

The better case is that he has come from nowhere to achieve that level, and did it almost literally overnight.

The logical implications of this is he should have done much, much more than won a race or two as a domestic elite. He should have been able to nearly dominate lower ranked international events. None of that happened. One day he podiums the Vuelta almost without explaination.

 

[acoggan]

[quote="
So Strava does some post processing of the power meter data?
Generating a number akin to Normalized Power?

OK, I'm now thinking Dear Wiggo's alarm at the dodgy Strava numbers (in another thread I think) was well justified.

I was under the impression that data on Strava from a power meter was unadulterated.

As a GIS geek, Strava isn't accurate. At all. They make nice pictures and graphs and stats, but largely, it's all made up. Dodgy is the best word to describe Strava's output.

Strava uses the same approach to estimate power output as, e.g., Ferrari, veloclinic, Tucker, Vayer, Grappe, etc.

OTOH, if the power data have a little lightning bolt next to the value, they Strava is just reporting what has been uploaded.

 

[DirtyWorks]

[quote="
So Strava does some post processing of the power meter data?
Generating a number akin to Normalized Power?

OK, I'm now thinking Dear Wiggo's alarm at the dodgy Strava numbers (in another thread I think) was well justified.

I was under the impression that data on Strava from a power meter was unadulterated.

As a GIS geek, Strava isn't accurate. At all. They make nice pictures and graphs and stats, but largely, it's all made up. Dodgy is the best word to describe Strava's output.

Strava uses the same approach to estimate power output as, e.g., Ferrari, veloclinic, Tucker, Vayer, Grappe, etc.

OTOH, if the power data have a little lightning bolt next to the value, they Strava is just reporting what has been uploaded.

No. You don't understand the issue. What's been uploaded is not anchored to the earth. This creates all kinds of fundamental problems. Grappe actually goes to the effort to join the climb time to the earth thus creating a much more precise model than anything Strava is doing. Intersections and finish lines on a video feed do not move. Strava's implementation, physical intersections and finish lines could be anywhere in a GPS track of some TdF climb, even non existent.

I'd also like to point out, Brailsford has discredited everyone but Sky's super-scientific-secret approach, yet they were doing exactly what the "amateurs" are doing.

 

[acoggan]

[quote="
So Strava does some post processing of the power meter data?
Generating a number akin to Normalized Power?

OK, I'm now thinking Dear Wiggo's alarm at the dodgy Strava numbers (in another thread I think) was well justified.

I was under the impression that data on Strava from a power meter was unadulterated.

As a GIS geek, Strava isn't accurate. At all. They make nice pictures and graphs and stats, but largely, it's all made up. Dodgy is the best word to describe Strava's output.

Strava uses the same approach to estimate power output as, e.g., Ferrari, veloclinic, Tucker, Vayer, Grappe, etc.

OTOH, if the power data have a little lightning bolt next to the value, they Strava is just reporting what has been uploaded.

No. You don't understand the issue. What's been uploaded is not anchored to the earth. This creates all kinds of fundamental problems. Garbage in, garbage out.

I never said anything at all about the accuracy of the input data, just what Strava does with it.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I never said anything at all about the accuracy of the input data, just what Strava does with it.

And the point I was making is what Strava is doing makes junk data, therefore, should be discouraged from use in discussion.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

VO2max just isn't all that practical for performance analysis/assessment and it's not used so much in aerobic endurance performance analysis/assessment nowadays. For example, British Rowing ceased doing VO2max tests in the early 2000's, so it doesn't surprise me that cycling doesn't bother much with it either, although there is much tradition in cycling even for performance assessment, hence VO2max tests still happen. It has its place in research of course.

When you consider the duration of rowing events are only a handful of minutes when maximal aerobic power is king and you are operating at VO2max, that should be quite telling they don't bother with such testing.

Again, you’re talking about situations when better data are available. What are we supposed to do when those data aren’t furnished? Grappe even went the other way; given Froome's power data, he estimated a V02max, obviously taking pains to emphasize that it might be one of the highest ever, in order to justify Froome's performance.

There's is ample historical data (even pre full *** era) on measured human maximums for things like efficiency, VO2max, partial utilisation of VO2max. 6.1-6.2W/kg is well inside those limits.

It’s your opinion that 6.1-6.2 watts/kg are within reasonable limits. Tucker disagrees, and his reasoning makes use of the same relationships that are shown on your own blog. I understand the line is fuzzy, but you do have to assume that Froome is at the high end of all three, certainly at the high end of V02max and efficiency--e.g., V02max of 90 and efficiency of 23% at LT of 85. Just because you can find a very small number of individuals in history who have one of those parameters that high doesn't mean that someone with both or all three of those parameters that high is very likely.

As Ammatti pointed out, Froome's time yesterday corresponds to about 39:15 on ADH. No one has ever done a time like that clean. If 6.1-6.2 is well within limits, why not?

But as I emphasized before, the case against Froome should not rest on the argument that what he's doing is impossible for anyone, which is always going to be subject to debate. You can always postulate an extreme outlier. The better case is that he has come from nowhere to achieve that level, and did it almost literally overnight.

Sorry for a novice question, but what does the bolded part mean?

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Re: Re:

but you do have to assume that Froome is at the high end of all three, certainly at the high end of V02max and efficiency--e.g., V02max of 90 and efficiency of 23% at LT of 85.

Sorry for a novice question, but what does the bolded part mean?

Lactic threshold of 85% of VO2max of 90ml/kg/min with an efficiency of 23%.

 

[Walkman]

Re: Re:

but you do have to assume that Froome is at the high end of all three, certainly at the high end of V02max and efficiency--e.g., V02max of 90 and efficiency of 23% at LT of 85.

Sorry for a novice question, but what does the bolded part mean?

Lactic threshold of 85% of VO2max of 90ml/kg/min with an efficiency of 23%.

Ok, thanks! Not really sure I understand the last part though? What is the efficiency measured with respect to?

And isn't that a bit low? To have you lactic threshold at 85%of VO2max? Or how does this relate to heart rate? Is this equivalent to have your lactic threshold at 85% of max heart rate?

 

[bigcog]

A different south african sports scientists view:

https://twitter.com/jeroenswart

just for a bit of balance lol

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

A different south african sports scientists view:

https://twitter.com/jeroenswart

just for a bit of balance lol

This guy says Froome has been transparent.

I've seen three of Froome's SRM files. Froome gave up just one of those willingly. There should be hundreds if Froome was actually transparent.

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

A different south african sports scientists view:

https://twitter.com/jeroenswart

just for a bit of balance lol

This guy says Froome has been transparent.

I've seen three of Froome's SRM files. Froome gave up just one of those willingly. There should be hundreds if Froome was actually transparent.

So he has no valid points and doesn't know what he's talking about. Bet he wishes he was as well qualified in the field a s Vayer...

 

[TourOfSardinia]

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-froome-to-undergo-independent-testing-to-try-to-prove-hes-clean

"I want the riders’ power data to be stored in a server - we’ve been discussing it with the ISSUL (Institute of Sports Science of the University of Lausanne). I'm ready to do it," said Grappe. (FDJ coach )

 

[bigcog]

Re:

fhttp://www.cyclingnews.com/news/report-froome-to-undergo-independent-testing-to-try-to-prove-hes-clean

"I want the riders’ power data to be stored in a server - we’ve been discussing it with the ISSUL (Institute of Sports Science of the University of Lausanne). I'm ready to do it," said Grappe.

No good here, Grappe is apparently a Sky stooge, even though they didn't choose him to analyse Froome's data in 2013.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

So he has no valid points and doesn't know what he's talking about. Bet he wishes he was as well qualified in the field a s Vayer...

The guy clearly has no problems with rattling off pro-Sky lies. I haven't got enough know-how to go through all his data analysis, but I found hokum on his Twitter feed after browsing it for three seconds so I doubt I found the only nugget of crap in a sea of sense.

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

So he has no valid points and doesn't know what he's talking about. Bet he wishes he was as well qualified in the field a s Vayer...

The guy clearly has no problems with rattling off pro-Sky lies. I haven't got enough know-how to go through all his data analysis, but I found hokum on his Twitter feed after browsing it for three seconds so I doubt I found the only nugget of crap in a sea of sense.

Exactly, your not qualified to judge, end of ...

 

[I Love To Dope]

2014 Stage 16 Vuelta with power data has been posted. Don't have the link on my phone. Search "WATTS Froome Vuelta 2014 Puerto de San Lorenzo" on YouTube.

 

[sjonnie]

Froome & Contador go on Puerto de San Lorenzo, stage 16 la Vuelta 2014

http://www.chronoswatts.com/

 

[The Death Merchant]

Re: Re:

Becoming a thief further diminishes one's credibility, although I have no idea who was responsible for such theft. Knowingly using stolen data is still piss poor.

So you're basically also condemning Snowden and the NSA leaks (or any other leakers/leaks) then? And Guardian, NY Times, Spiegel, etc. were "piss poor" for using that stolen data to inform us all what NSA actually does?

And I find it hard to believe that someone actually _stole_ the data, but rather made a copy of it. And copying a file isn't stealing, it's copying. Original isn't lost like happens in actual theft.

Semantics. OK, so it's illegally copying data. That does not make it any better.

Common definition of data theft as I understand it:

Data theft is the act of stealing computer-based information from an unknowing victim with the intent of compromising privacy or obtaining confidential information. Data theft is increasingly a problem for individual computer users, as well as big corporate firms. There is more than one way to steal data.

This is not a case of whistleblowing some form of monstrous illegal activity such as torture or illegal killings. It's stealing one's personal property. If a scientist is knowingly using illegally or unethically obtained data, they have zero credibility IMO. I'd expect any credible scientist to distance themselves from those that obtain their data in this manner.

But you just said flat out that using data gained by "stealing" is piss poor behaviour. Period. You weren't discriminating whether one is whistleblowing or not. How was anyone reading supposed to know that you had exceptions to that opinion.

And I would count Froome leaks as whistleblowing. The man and team Sky as a whole are cheating their way to victories and a *** loads of money and at the same time pretending to be some holy ambassadors of clean cycling. The real clean cyclists are actually getting robbed by Froome and Sky. That's actually stealing since those clean cyclists will not get the money.

And little bit more about the real difference of stealing and copying. Because it's not semantics at all. Let's say you have a bike. It's the most awesome bike ever made. Now I'm very envious about your bike and really want one too. I decide to get one. In the first case, I break into your garage and take it. Now you wouldn't have that bike anymore. In the second case I break into your garage, but instead of taking it, I make all kinds of measurements and inspections to find out exactly how it's made. I then leave your garage and make a exact copy of the bike in my own garage. You'll still have the bike. In the first case your bike was stolen, in the second case it wasn't. It was only copied.

So you see, there's a real difference between copying and stealing. It's not semantics. In the world of computers and binary data things work like in the second case, a bunch of bits are copied from one place to another.

And that "common definition" of data "theft" is disingenuous, because it misuses the word theft.

Theft:
the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it

 

[bigcog]

Re: Re:

Becoming a thief further diminishes one's credibility, although I have no idea who was responsible for such theft. Knowingly using stolen data is still piss poor.

So you're basically also condemning Snowden and the NSA leaks (or any other leakers/leaks) then? And Guardian, NY Times, Spiegel, etc. were "piss poor" for using that stolen data to inform us all what NSA actually does?

And I find it hard to believe that someone actually _stole_ the data, but rather made a copy of it. And copying a file isn't stealing, it's copying. Original isn't lost like happens in actual theft.

Semantics. OK, so it's illegally copying data. That does not make it any better.

Common definition of data theft as I understand it:

Data theft is the act of stealing computer-based information from an unknowing victim with the intent of compromising privacy or obtaining confidential information. Data theft is increasingly a problem for individual computer users, as well as big corporate firms. There is more than one way to steal data.

This is not a case of whistleblowing some form of monstrous illegal activity such as torture or illegal killings. It's stealing one's personal property. If a scientist is knowingly using illegally or unethically obtained data, they have zero credibility IMO. I'd expect any credible scientist to distance themselves from those that obtain their data in this manner.

But you just said flat out that using data gained by "stealing" is piss poor behaviour. Period. You weren't discriminating whether one is whistleblowing or not. How was anyone reading supposed to know that you had exceptions to that opinion.

And I would count Froome leaks as whistleblowing. The man and team Sky as a whole are cheating their way to victories and a **** loads of money and at the same time pretending to be some holy ambassadors of clean cycling. The real clean cyclists are actually getting robbed by Froome and Sky. That's actually stealing since those clean cyclists will not get the money.

And little bit more about the real difference of stealing and copying. Because it's not semantics at all. Let's say you have a bike. It's the most awesome bike ever made. Now I'm very envious about your bike and really want one too. I decide to get one. In the first case, I break into your garage and take it. Now you wouldn't have that bike anymore. In the second case I break into your garage, but instead of taking it, I make all kinds of measurements and inspections to find out exactly how it's made. I then leave your garage and make a exact copy of the bike in my own garage. You'll still have the bike. In the first case your bike was stolen, in the second case it wasn't. It was only copied.

So you see, there's a real difference between copying and stealing. It's not semantics. In the world of computers and binary data things work like in the second case, a bunch of bits are copied from one place to another.

And that "common definition" of data "theft" is disingenuous, because it misuses the word theft.

Theft:
the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it

Not sure about your definition of copying and theft in relation to data. Suggest you read the UK Data Protection Act etc.

 

[Gregga]

Grappe, as Simmons or Coggan, earns his money from coaching pro cyclists, he can't say much without losing his position near the peloton.
That's Vayers strength beeing sport teacher, independant from pro cycling

 

[bigcog]

Re:

Grappe, as Simmons or Coggan, earns his money from coaching pro cyclists, he can't say much without losing his position near the peloton.
That's Vayers strength beeing sport teacher, independant from pro cycling

How the hell is Vayer qualified to comment on high end sports performance physiology. What a joke, it's like a bus driver commenting on F1 engineering. Utterly laughable.

 

[acoggan]

Re:

Coggan, earns his money from coaching pro cyclists

Uh, no: I'm not a coach, nor have I ever been one. I make my living as a biomedical researcher in a medical school:

https://wustl.academia.edu/AndrewRCoggan/CurriculumVitae