Garmin biggest cowards in today peloton

[M Sport]

It comes down to this:

"Depending on whose viewpoint you want to believe, the Garmin-Cervélo team was either (1) totally brilliant in engineering Johan Van Summeren’s solo win at Roubaix Sunday afternoon or

(2) toxically negative in stopping its world road champion Thor Hushovd from racing with Leopard-Trek’s world time trial champ Fabian Cancellara, resulting in a lesser rider winning the sport’s most prestigious one-day prize."

I picked (2).

That's a rather myopic point of view. This argument is going round and circles nearly a week on from the race, argueing about whether the tactics of the winning team were good enough. The thing that really amuses me is that people are automatically assuming it was only going to be a match between Thor and Fabian if Thor had of contributed to the work load and got them up to the leading group.

The thing is Ballan was looking stronger than Thor and in my opinion was probably the second strongest rider in the race, when Fabian went initially Ballan was caught out of position but he closed that 10-12 second gap down with ease, and then a smaller one a bit later. Ballan would have done Thor over like a dinner had those groups merged.

Again for hopefully the last time, but I doubt it ... They won, they had the best tactics. Case closed. Fabian lost because he had a p1ss weak team and he can't control his temper and attitude, but he was the strongest rider so he takes the consolation prize.

 

[woodie]

Nope. It comes down to this:

WOW he is skinny in that photo!

Garmin, as a team, rode the perfect race, they put someone in the early break, made other teams work to catch the break and then followed anyone that tried to come across.

Rule 1 in team racing, don't chase your teammate!

Because of the way the race unfolded they had a backup plan in Thor in case JVS got caught which everyone was expecting to happen but didn't. They got the gap close expecting other teams to close it but when they didn't they took advantage of it and came out on top.

As much as I wanted to see Thor and Fabian go head to head on the cobbles out the front I think Garmin made the right decision. It's exactly what I would have done in that situation.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

Do you guys know why teams want to have a rider in the early break?
BECAUSE THEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORK BEHIND THE BREAK.

Especially when your rider has proven the most on this race of the whole front group.

 

[Astana1]

no, it comes down to :

Despite his wasteful show of bravado in E3, his being clearly the strongest, a gladiator!, yet managing to somehow lose RVV, his resultant threats and chest-thumping leading up to Paris Roubaix, ("if I’m at 100 percent they have to fasten their seatbelts, like on an aeroplane”) , was Cancellara strong enough to drop Hushovd when it counted?

No.
----
edit: and what Granvile said.

You chose poorly.

 

[Oldman]

Do you guys know why teams want to have a rider in the early break?
BECAUSE THEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORK BEHIND THE BREAK.

Especially when your rider has proven the most on this race of the whole front group.

You know of what you speak, Soldier Boy. They also had backup guys in the wings so...they won.

 

[Buffalo Soldier]

I have to admit, I know close to nothing about the history of the real Buffalo Soldiers
Buffalo's is the nickname of my favorite football team (see avatar) + I like Bob Marley music.

 

[ultimobici]

I find it amusing that many posters here seem to think that RVV PR etc should have a designated win list and that any other rider is an unworthy winner.

Garmin's team is packed with quality Classics guys and to expect them to only work for a Hushovd win to the exclusion of any other is laughable.

Cancellara is the only really viable classics card LeOpard have with O'Grady as a distant backup. As a result Cancellara is their only real hope, whereas Garmin have Hushovd as their main guy backed up by several quality riders including JVS. As has been pointed out, he is hardly a Mickey Mouse winner with two top 10 results to his name already.

As has also been mentioned, one of cycling's oldest tactical rules is that you put a rider in the early breaks to force your opponents to work and take the pressure off your team. This is all that Garmin did and it worked perfectly as they had one of their men on the top step of the podium.

Cycling has been both a team sport and an individual sport for decades and these tactics have been around since before most on here were even born. The reason? They work. If you don't "get it" you don't get cycling at its core.

 

[Benotti69]

It comes down to this:

"Depending on whose viewpoint you want to believe, the Garmin-Cervélo team was either (1) totally brilliant in engineering Johan Van Summeren’s solo win at Roubaix Sunday afternoon or (2) toxically negative in stopping its world road champion Thor Hushovd from racing with Leopard-Trek’s world time trial champ Fabian Cancellara, resulting in a lesser rider winning the sport’s most prestigious one-day prize."

I picked (2).

and how do lesser riders become greater riders and that is now what Van Summeran is

 

[Astana1]

It comes down to this:

"Depending on whose viewpoint you want to believe, the Garmin-Cervélo team was either (1) totally brilliant in engineering Johan Van Summeren’s solo win at Roubaix Sunday afternoon or (2) toxically negative in stopping its world road champion Thor Hushovd from racing with Leopard-Trek’s world time trial champ Fabian Cancellara, resulting in a lesser rider winning the sport’s most prestigious one-day prize."

I picked (2).

You chose poorly.

 

[Mambo95]

It comes down to this:

"Depending on whose viewpoint you want to believe, the Garmin-Cervélo team was either (1) totally brilliant in engineering Johan Van Summeren’s solo win at Roubaix Sunday afternoon or (2) toxically negative in stopping its world road champion Thor Hushovd from racing with Leopard-Trek’s world time trial champ Fabian Cancellara, resulting in a lesser rider winning the sport’s most prestigious one-day prize."

I picked (2).

No, it comes down to whether you think Hushovd should ride for (a) himself or (b) the team.

If you think it is (a), remind yourself that the team pay Hushovd about a million euros a year and then pick again.

 

[cineteq]

i think what garmin will not admit was at this point they had no faith in JVS to win the whole thing, and were still planning to take thor up the road... lucky for them it turned out how it did

Yup, you got it right!

 

[cineteq]

No, it comes down to whether you think Hushovd should ride for (a) himself or (b) the team.

If you think it is (a), remind yourself that the team pay Hushovd about a million euros a year and then pick again.

So you (Garmin) decide to shot the guy's dream down because JVS might get lucky and and win the race? If you're paying the guy that money, you have to go with him, especially seeing how strong he was when he went with Cancellara. Garmin's tactics were far from brilliant, they got lucky.

Thor will never have this opportunity again in Paris-Roubaix. That's why I chose (2). It has nothing to do with JVS.

 

[Mambo95]

So you (Garmin) decide to shot the guy's dream down because JVS might get lucky and and win the race?

If it's in the best interests of the team - absolutely. And it wasn't 'lucky'. JVS was the best rider (on past results) in the front group. Hushovd wasn't the best in his group.

If it's in the best interests If you're paying the guy that money, you have to go with him

That's the same logic Chelsea are currently using towards Torres and Radioshack used at the 2010 Tour. Neither won anything.

especially seeing how strong he was when he went with Cancellara.

If Hushovd had the matching of Cancellara how did FC come 2nd and Thor 8th?

Garmin's tactics were far from brilliant, they got lucky.

BMC, Rabobank, Sky and HTC all used the same (standard textbook) tactics. But Garmin did it with the better riders.

Thor will never have this opportunity again in Paris-Roubaix.

Why, is he retiring? He's had the same chances three years in a row now.

 

[cineteq]

Why, is he retiring? He's had the same chances three years in a row now.

No, but he's getting *old* and fat.
All your arguments are really weak. They all come after the fact.
Rewind to when Fabian attacked and Thor followed.

Oh look, it seems L'Equipe read my commets LOL!
L’Equipe — the respected French sports daily — didn’t quite see it that way. In Monday’s edition, the paper gave Hushovd a one-star rating out of 10, writing: “Hushovd didn’t respect the rainbow jersey. He wanted to play hide-and-seek with Cancellara. Luckily for him, Van Summeren (won). He earns one point. One.”

 

[Anonymous]

No, but he's getting *old* and fat.
All your arguments are really weak. They all come after the fact.
Rewind to when Fabian attacked and Thor followed.

Oh look, it seems L'Equipe read my commets LOL!
L’Equipe — the respected French sports daily — didn’t quite see it that way. In Monday’s edition, the paper gave Hushovd a one-star rating out of 10, writing: “Hushovd didn’t respect the rainbow jersey. He wanted to play hide-and-seek with Cancellara. Luckily for him, Van Summeren (won). He earns one point. One.”

You're comments are imbecilically (not a real word) simple and ignorant...ergo...well, you do the math.

What is funny is that this is all sour grapes by people who either don't like Garmin, or are fans of another rider who didn't stand on the top step last Sunday. Either way, JVS won. Period. Go check the results if you don't believe me. Stupid people whine about how that was done because the last time I checked, winning races was the whole point of competitive cycling...not helping the strongest rider in the field have the best sporting chance to win. Canc is a whiny little diva who stupidly chose a ridiculously weak classics team. Canc lost that race at the end of last summer when he chose Leopard.

 

[simoni]

Standard tactics from Garmin that won them the race.

Get a man in the break - every team will have wanted this as it gives you options and flexibility later. That is was such a strong teammate was a bonus. Any team would have been delighted with a man with his record being up there. Garmin used this flexibility as an excuse not to work with Cancellara.

You're still trusting to luck a bit as you need your stooge to have the legs and fortunately for Garmin he did.

Clearly there wasn't a grand plan to isolate Cancellara with your big name world champ and let the back-up guy take the glory. The idea would always be to make life as easy for Hushovd as possible and hope he could hold FC and outsprint him. But would they have anticipated Leopard being so weak? I doubt it? But the fact they had a guy there meant that Cancellara was backed into a corner and couldn't start working for himself until it was too late. The fact they had had JVS up front meant they could switch to plan B and win the race. If Leopard had more firepower they'd have towed FC up to the front, TH wouldn't have had to work and would have been able to take on FC on equal terms. You have to avoid losing the race before you can win it and Garmin's tactics meant that could happen.

Not genius tactics. Just standard stuff of giving yourself options and opportunities and being wise enough to take advantage. And JVS still needed the legs.

All-in-all an object lesson in how to win races by marshalling your resources well. You don't get a lucky win in Roubaix - the winner is always exceptionally strong - but you can play yours cards effectively to maximise your chances and that's all Garmin did.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Do you guys know why teams want to have a rider in the early break?
BECAUSE THEN THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORK BEHIND THE BREAK.

Especially when your rider has proven the most on this race of the whole front group.

Well - the reason others have to chase a break is because if they don't then someone in the break wins.
So its about having someone there and the team has many options.

i think what garmin will not admit was at this point they had no faith in JVS to win the whole thing, and were still planning to take thor up the road... lucky for them it turned out how it did

No, not really - was this the plan they hatched in the bus on Saturday night? Of course not, but PR is decided on the road and Garmin were keeping the options open.

I'm sure their preferred option was to have Thor ride solo in to Roubaix - but that wasn't going to happen with Canc (& Ballan) there.

Coming in to Carrefour de l’Arbre their option was JVS to go solo (Tjallingi nearly scuppered that) - they did not have to use the other options.

 

[Cobblestones]

So, Garmin manages to have the best rider in the break (JVS) after the trench of Arenberg. It's part good tactics, and part luck. Luck because (i) other teams don't or can't chase, or have to wait for their own leader (Boonen), and (ii) Boom, who also tried to bridge, punctured (he might have challenged JVS).

When the chase really starts, Canc is isolated and soon gives up. Part is good tactics by Garmin (Hushovd), being attentive and following Canc's wheel, part is luck, because (i) Canc doesn't have any team mates to help, (ii) Ballan didn't have to work, and (iii) the only team which might have contributed under normal circumstances to the chase (QS) was already out of contention.

So Canc is psyched out and stops the chase which decided the race, although it wasn't clear at the time.

Now, Garmin put pressure on the break by reducing the gap a bit. This was a bit of a gamble, but it paid in the end, because it allows JVS to make the decisive move.

Finally, when Canc goes a second time, Hushovd is inattentive and that's a real problem, because it might just lose them the race. Luckily, Canc's move comes too late, JVS's puncture is slow, and everything works out.

Garmin's tactic was sound. The biggest mistake was when Thor lost Canc's wheel. That might have cost them the race. That's why I would rate Thor pretty low in this race.

 

[ingsve]

That's why I would rate Thor pretty low in this race.

Well, being the only one who could follow Cancellara on the cobbles when Cancellara let it loose is no small feat in itself so I would say he did a good race by that fact alone.

 

[Machu Picchu]

Well, being the only one who could follow Cancellara on the cobbles when Cancellara let it loose is no small feat in itself so I would say he did a good race by that fact alone.

I thought he was having a good race but I was disappointed that he didn't finish better, his head dropped I think when he realised he wouldn't be competing for the victory which was a shame.

 

[Cobblestones]

Well, being the only one who could follow Cancellara on the cobbles when Cancellara let it loose is no small feat in itself so I would say he did a good race by that fact alone.

He did a good race up to there. And it's precisely because he looked good, and because he had teammates to narrow the gap, that I thought he should have done better. In an interview he admitted himself that he was inattentive. It wasn't his legs which were the problem. No, he made a tactical mistake.

 

[Astana1]

Things I've learned in this thread:

1. Putting a rider or two in the break is not honorable because then you don't have to pull.

2. It's a good thing for a rider to chase his teammate down if that results in benefitting a certain swiss rider that you have a mancrush on.

2a. If you are wearing a rainbow jersey then normal principles of cycling tactics don't apply, this is even more true if you are more of a sprinter and you are expected to drop the most powerful rouleur in all of cycling.

3. It's possible to read Van Petegem's mind and determine that he had no confidence in a rider with two top tens in PR.

4. Road Racing isn't actually a team sport.

What have I missed?

 

[Astana1]

He did a good race up to there. And it's precisely because he looked good, and because he had teammates to narrow the gap, that I thought he should have done better. In an interview he admitted himself that he was inattentive. It wasn't his legs which were the problem. No, he made a tactical mistake.

Garmin was smart because they didn't commit to a winning strategy until possibly the last possible moment. If Fabian waits another minute or two before sitting up, then maybe he catches Summy at the end.

I thought that send a rider from the break back to the Cancellara group was smart for Garmin. It pressurized the break without having to burn up Thor. Not long after, Bak, Rast and Summy went off the front of the break and in turn that pressurized the Cancellara group.

At that point it seemed all but certain that the break would live and that the Cancellara group had dawdled for too long. Summy didn't go to too early, but he went early enough to win the race with nobody else in the picture.

Garmin had more tactical flexibility because they had enough strong riders arrayed in the right places. Even still, Farrar was out of the picture as was Haussler and Hammond and still they still had the legs to get it done.

That fact alone is enough to pretty much end the argument. Nobody else could do that on Sunday. They had the strongest team and won the day.

 

[Cobblestones]

Garmin was smart because they didn't commit to a winning strategy until possibly the last possible moment. If Fabian waits another minute or two before sitting up, then maybe he catches Summy at the end.

I thought that send a rider from the break back to the Cancellara group was smart for Garmin. It pressurized the break without having to burn up Thor. Not long after, Bak, Rast and Summy went off the front of the break and in turn that pressurized the Cancellara group.

At that point it seemed all but certain that the break would live and that the Cancellara group had dawdled for too long. Summy didn't go to too early, but he went early enough to win the race with nobody else in the picture.

Garmin had more tactical flexibility because they had enough strong riders arrayed in the right places. Even still, Farrar was out of the picture as was Haussler and Hammond and still they still had the legs to get it done.

That fact alone is enough to pretty much end the argument. Nobody else could do that on Sunday. They had the strongest team and won the day.

I agree with all of that. And still, Garmin could have lost everything when Hushovd lost Cancellara's wheel. JVS had a slow puncture and won by only 19 seconds. With a little bit of bad luck, Hushovd's inattentiveness would have cost Garmin the victory. He should have paid attention, and he had the legs as he admitted himself.

 

[Mambo95]

Things I've learned in this thread:

<SNIP>

What have I missed?

5. Having several strong riders on a team is purely down to 'luck'