GB Track Team

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

So you serious think that Laura Trott, aged 20, and a world class rider since she was promoted to the senior team aged 18 is part of some team-wide master doping strategy?

When you see a fifteen year old Chinese swimster rock the boat - presumable a product of a state sponsored PED program - is it hard to say the great western nation of the UK would do the same?

Because if you wanted to do that you wouldn't axe the Madison and squash the Points race into the Omnium, where 6 Days riders and road riders can have more of an impact and results are far more unpredictable.

I agree.

And yes, the poor showing of the Aussies is curious, their pursuit teams have gone backwards since the worlds in particular

Perhaps the marginal gain of homeground territory...

Out of interest, what sort of dope do you think is involved? Given the build of the GB ladies, I would think that there's not much testosterone going their way. Jason Kenny is also curiously skinny.

Wiggins, Froome?

Must say the young girl doesn't look that skinny.

We know of the Balco affair drugs can be designed and be undetectable.

 

[will10]

Was watching a bit on the BBC yesterday, I sensed the presenter - he also does the F1 - was getting suspiscious too, but it soon went over to the marginal gains theory. Marginal gains are tenths' of a second over 4k in my opinion, not two full seconds or one and a half.

There will be no positives, the UCI/IOC can't have a 'two front war' with everything going on in the state of Texas USA.

Wow, it doesn't get any better than this. Brits will say 'sour loser', critics will say something differently.I'll stick with the bold part. With due respect of course.

If I am correct, there have been 7 track cycling events? The Brits taking 5 gold, one bronze and one DQ wich they were the clear favourites for?

Wonder why road cycling fans don't take track cycling serious.

Bauge is right to question Kenny's performance, check the VAM calculation for that last sprint, incredible.

 

[Caruut]

I, too, wonder how did J. Kenny improve so much since the last WC. I mean, it was clear there that Bauge was stronger than him, and now, he beat the Frenchman convincingly. I think Bauge's question is legitimate - it's all too good to be true for the Brits.

Although, differences in funding compared to their competitors might explain this in a more plausible way than on the road. I don't know.

Off-topic: Laura Trott is cute

Baugé's suspicions are strange. For a guy who has clearly been involved in dope and cover-ups to take this so badly is odd. Kenny is just a different rider altogether, but that is perfectly in line with the rest of the squad. They are all on another level, so whatever is going on (be it clean or not), I am certain it's on a team-wide level.

And yes. Laura Trott is cute.

 

[blackcat]

I reckon the Aussies would like to ask the US swim team WT*#%€ is going on.
So much for the duel in the pool.

Shane Perkins said on Aus tv about the GB team doing all the right things and the one-percenters

he wants to be the Burson Marstellar for Dave Brailford

may have a future there Perko. My nick for him is Perko goes beserko, ie dont get him liquored up, or liquored up at your peril

also, see photos of Leigh Howard and Perko five years ago. They were not brothers or remotely similar. Now they have the same (natural) shape skull, but their heads have morphed to a separated at birth, and the individual features have receded. Its ok, cos they are good mates :d

 

[BigBoat]

I'm not sure what the motivations for cutting many events and reducing the competitors. What is clear is that a lot of serious talent has been left behind and the overal quality of the field isn't as strong as a Worlds. I doubt they did it to reduce the success of one particular country.

Because if you wanted to do that you wouldn't axe the Madison and squash the Points race into the Omnium, where 6 Days riders and road riders can have more of an impact and results are far more unpredictable.

And yes, the poor showing of the Aussies is curious, their pursuit teams have gone backwards since the worlds in particular

I think the IOC probably thought mountain bike & BMX was taking up enough 'space'.

Baugé's echoing what many are thinking.....how is GB 'tweaking it' I mean their vehicle setup? he he he

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl5RxhLZ5U

 

[the big ring]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MIl5RxhLZ5U

Hilarious the closing scene of his training finishing.... at night. Uh huh.

10-4 is 6 hours. Never trained a day of his life after 5pm.

 

[ferryman]

Not if you like seeing one's representatives dishing it out to the Jonny Foreigners,

FFS the Queen meets Boris Johnson

which is the true purpose of international sport.


Enough said about you

 

[The Cobra]

IF there is a doping strategy for the entire GB track squad, the sad truth is that it will never possibly come to light.

The PR damage would simply be too great, millions of pounds will go down the drain, etc. My guess is that IF they are using something, it's either untraceable or they are conspiring with the authorities so that no positives will come up, ever.

If there is team wide doping I would be very confident that it would come to light eventually. When we look back, who in the long term has really got away with it, almost no one. Lance's days of claiming to be clean are almost done, everyone in Puerto, Frankie Schleck, Contador the list goes on and on.

When you think about the huge number of people involved in the GB track to team to seriously suggest that everyone is involved in a massive doping conspiracy and that they are all so morally bankrupt and without a conscious that they will be able to keep it a secret until the day they die is laughable. Way too many people involved, there's always someone who will have a grudge or the living a lie will become too much of a burden. IF IF IF there is a doping scandal to be had, it will come out. Personally I find it very hard to believe they would be that stupid.

 

[blackcat]

II like Bauges moxy tho, unless they are at the Paris Olympics he is on a hiding to nothing

 

[lemoogle]

Have we heard from the French about their swimmers, or indeed about their WR in the Team Sprint?

Erm , the French 50,100,200m freestyle has been getting stronger for the last 10 years and they have been on top of the 100m discipline for over 4 years ( only to be dominated this year on times by Australia's new generation).

They have been long due to win a 4x100m only to lose out multiple times to Team USA.They haven't set a single world record and not even agnel dominated all his races.
Lacourt was a clear favourite and was off form in the backstroke and ended up winning nothing. Muffat has been dominating for a while and her performance was not out of this world, she won her main event and did well in the 200m.

You might have a case about Florent Manaudou although let's be fair on a 50m freestyle it's always very open. I would think if he was juiced up to the roof then at least he'd share that with his sister and not let her look so weak in the heats.

 

[Parrot23]

Out of interest, what sort of dope do you think is involved? Given the build of the GB ladies, I would think that there's not much testosterone going their way. Jason Kenny is also curiously skinny.

Pendleton is certainly no monster Hulk Hogan either.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Erm , the French 50,100,200m freestyle has been getting stronger for the last 10 years and they have been on top of the 100m discipline for over 4 years ( only to be dominated this year on times by Australia's new generation).

It was a tongue in cheek comment. I don't think there's that much suspicious about the GB track performance relative to 2004 and 2008 given the amount of cash that has been thrown at the programme. Good luck to the French swimmersas well.

It's worth repeating that the men's TP world record advances 1.9s from Beijing to London, which is hardly the stuff of legends.

 

[blackcat]

If there is team wide doping I would be very confident that it would come to light eventually. When we look back, who in the long term has really got away with it, almost no one. Lance's days of claiming to be clean are almost done, everyone in Puerto, Frankie Schleck, Contador the list goes on and on.

When you think about the huge number of people involved in the GB track to team to seriously suggest that everyone is involved in a massive doping conspiracy and that they are all so morally bankrupt and without a conscious that they will be able to keep it a secret until the day they die is laughable. Way too many people involved, there's always someone who will have a grudge or the living a lie will be too become too much of a burden. IF IF IF there is a doping scandal to be had, it will come out. Personally I find it very hard to believe they would be that stupid.

not living a lie, they are on the same terms as everyone else. So ex athletes would need to make the jump to this counter logic.

everyone in the olympic track team will have existential invesment. Unless someone dies cos of doping, it would make a hard case for athletes or coaches to turn their backs on their life, their career, their competition, and a major existential component of self.

Wont happen for these philosophical reasons.

 

[lemoogle]

If there is team wide doping I would be very confident that it would come to light eventually. When we look back, who in the long term has really got away with it, almost no one. Lance's days of claiming to be clean are almost done, everyone in Puerto, Frankie Schleck, Contador the list goes on and on.

When you think about the huge number of people involved in the GB track to team to seriously suggest that everyone is involved in a massive doping conspiracy and that they are all so morally bankrupt and without a conscious that they will be able to keep it a secret until the day they die is laughable. Way too many people involved, there's always someone who will have a grudge or the living a lie will be too become too much of a burden. IF IF IF there is a doping scandal to be had, it will come out. Personally I find it very hard to believe they would be that stupid.

The "they wouldn't be so stupid to dope" defence is getting old, think of it more as "they're smart enough and organized enough to dope better than everyone else and to make sure they don't get caught"
There are things that have happened in the world and politics that are 10 times more scandalous than a team-wide doping program and we'll never find out let's be clear about that ( and I'm not a conspiracy theorist , just a realist )

 

[JimmyFingers]

The "they wouldn't be so stupid to dope" defence is getting old, think of it more as "they're smart enough and organized enough to dope better than everyone else and to make sure they don't get caught"
There are things that have happened in the world and politics that are 10 times more scandalous than a team-wide doping program and we'll never find out let's be clear about that ( and I'm not a conspiracy theorist , just a realist )

And yet you defend the French swimming team

 

[Parrot23]

Bauge is right to question Kenny's performance, check the VAM calculation for that last sprint, incredible.

Ha, ha! It's all the EPO, transfusions he is on (and perhaps he has Eyetalian connections too).

Too high a cadence too--or maybe it's too low--or maybe it's not changed at all, LOL.

 

[The Cobra]

The "they wouldn't be so stupid to dope" defence is getting old, think of it more as "they're smart enough and organized enough to dope better than everyone else and to make sure they don't get caught"
There are things that have happened in the world and politics that are 10 times more scandalous than a team-wide doping program and we'll never find out let's be clear about that ( and I'm not a conspiracy theorist , just a realist )

But when you look at the biggest names in cycling over the last 20 years how many have unblemished records with regards to doping? Very very few. Its almost impossible to keep it a secret forever. I can beleive that Sky had a select 5 or 6 guys hidden away on top of a mountain in Tenerife getting up to no good. Thats plausible. But the entire track team, all the riders, all the coaches and you seriously believe no one will ever talk?? That is ofcourse ignoring the obvious possiblity of being busted by the police or going positive. It cant be done long term, impossible. The truth, whatever that is will come out.

 

[lemoogle]

But when you look at the biggest names in cycling over the last 20 years how many have unblemished records with regards to doping? Very very few. Its almost impossible to keep it a secret forever. I can beleive that Sky had a select 5 or 6 guys hidden away on top of a mountain in Tenerife getting up to no good. Thats plausible. But the entire track team, all the riders, all the coaches and you seriously believe no one will ever talk?? That is ofcourse ignoring the obvious possiblity of being busted by the police or going positive. It cant be done long term, impossible. The truth, whatever that is will come out.

I am not saying they have the same program, or even if it's biological doping or mechanical or anything, I am not an expert on that, but we'd be stupid not to doubt the GB track team's performance. The difference in their performance now compared to 4 months ago at the worlds is too high, not to mention the last 3 years. 4 years ago in Beijing was suspicious already but everyone had to accept it ( I did too ) , but after 3 years of under-performing (mostly talking Sprint here although there is still a massive gap in performance in Pursuit with all the new World records and the suddenly huge gap with the competition), this performance is way too suspicious.

Also , you have to consider, Brailsford went from tremendous success at Track in Beijing to Road (+ track ). If you can believe that they are doping now on the road, then the two must come together, or none at all.

 

[Franklin]

But when you look at the biggest names in cycling over the last 20 years how many have unblemished records with regards to doping? Very very few.

If we use the logic of the Sky fans that list would be surprisingly short. Positive tests are absent (except Floyd). Some other salient points:

1. Until this data lance and USPS are still to be considered clean. It took a herculean effort to get it where it is now.
2. Basso only said het attempted to dope. And that came to light due to police action.
3. Alberto Contador has been convicted on a technicality (contaminated supplements are the riders responsibility) on an incredibly low treshold. His OP connection is denied.
4. Telekom is implicated, but never proven to be issing team wide doping.
5. Beloki was cleared by his federation
6. Botero was cleared by his federation.
7. The Human Plasma case didn't lead to a follow up at all. Not the UCI, not the national federations.

The risk for using dope, being caught and then paying a significant price is absolutely not in balance with the possible gains.

And to drive this one home with a clad-iron mallet: The majority of high profile cases are not related to a positive test.

So on the one hand you yourself argue that the biggest names in cycling are implicated. Yet we are idiots to think the same of Sky. You even demand an evidence which is absolutely ridiculous considering the reality of the inadequacies in testing. Let's face it, if you use your own logic you shouldn't trust Sky and the GB track team. You have to do some soul searching why you are so illogical about this.

 

[dougzz99]

I, too, wonder how did J. Kenny improve so much since the last WC. I mean, it was clear there that Bauge was stronger than him, and now, he beat the Frenchman convincingly. I think Bauge's question is legitimate - it's all too good to be true for the Brits.

Although, differences in funding compared to their competitors might explain this in a more plausible way than on the road. I don't know.

Off-topic: Laura Trott is cute

Yeah, she must have had plastic surgery right?
Win= Dope
Pretty = Plastic Surgery
This place is mad

 

[The Cobra]

If we use the logic of the Sky fans that list would be surprisingly short. Positive tests are absent (except Floyd). Some other salient points:

1. Until this data lance and USPS are still to be considered clean. It took a herculean effort to get it where it is now.
2. Basso only said het attempted to dope. And that came to light due to police action.
3. Alberto Contador has been convicted on a technicality (contaminated supplements are the riders responsibility) on an incredibly low treshold. His OP connection is denied.
4. Telekom is implicated, but never proven to be issing team wide doping.
5. Beloki was cleared by his federation
6. Botero was cleared by his federation.
7. The Human Plasma case didn't lead to a follow up at all. Not the UCI, not the national federations.

The risk for using dope, being caught and then paying a significant price is absolutely not in balance with the possible gains.

And to drive this one home with a clad-iron mallet: The majority of high profile cases are not related to a positive test.

So on the one hand you yourself argue that the biggest names in cycling are implicated. Yet we are idiots to think the same of Sky. You even demand an evidence which is absolutely ridiculous considering the reality of the inadequacies in testing. Let's face it, if you use your own logic you shouldn't trust Sky and the GB track team. You have to do some soul searching why you are so illogical about this.

I didnt say that all the big names in cycling had tested positive. I asked if they had unblemished records. If you look at Lance's case or that of Valverde or Basso that is as good as nailed on evidence of doping. There is not anything even remotely close to that at the moment for the GB track team. If something like that comes out then fair enough. My point was it is almost impossible to keep a huge team wide doping operation completely quiet long term. There will always be a leak from somewhere. From a doctor, from a police investigation, from a coach, a bitter rider or someone with a guilty conscious. If in 20 years from now the ''evidence'' against the track team never goes further than what is in this thread thats as good as clean for me.

 

[Stueyy]

It is near on impossible to win the sprint without doping. To beat equally talented riders who are on the gear clean just by hard work isn't going to happen, as guys on the gear can train harder, recover faster and do it over and over again and reap the benefits of being able to train harder and more often than someone who is clean. That is where you gain so much of an advantage by doping for the sprints. Kenny did it so easily in the final so to suggest there is anyway he could be clean is really funny. If you want to believe fine but at least educate yourself on the benefits of doping and then ask yourself is it plausible that a clean rider of approximately the same natural talent could beat someone who is doped...

 

[gheizhwinder]

I think there is a team wide doping strategy, yes.

I don't really want to speculate

Haha, good one.

 

[The Cobra]

It is near on impossible to win the sprint without doping. To beat equally talented riders who are on the gear clean just by hard work isn't going to happen, as guys on the gear can train harder, recover faster and do it over and over again and reap the benefits of being able to train harder and more often than someone who is clean. That is where you gain so much of an advantage by doping for the sprints. Kenny did it so easily in the final so to suggest there is anyway he could be clean is really funny. If you want to believe fine but at least educate yourself on the benefits of doping and then ask yourself is it plausible that a clean rider of approximately the same natural talent could beat someone who is doped...

Could you educate us then on what completely undectable drug Kenny is taking to improve his sprint?

 

[Tei6chai]

If you want to believe fine but at least educate yourself on the benefits of doping and then ask yourself is it plausible that a clean rider of approximately the same natural talent could beat someone who is doped...

The problem with this statement is that there has never been, nor will there ever be, a measure for "the same natural talent".

If we take that fantasy metric out of consideration, we are left with the simple question: can a clean rider beat a doped rider?

To which the self-evident answer is, yes.