GB Track Team

[Wallace and Gromit]

Thanx, that put a nice smile on my face.

You're welcome. You frequently make me laugh as well.

No Olympic medalist at rowing had ever won a medal at cycling until Romero did. This is actually a lower "conversion rate" than of world class pursuiters to GT contenders. By the logic applied to Wiggo, I assume you are sure that Romero doped her way to success in Beijing?

 

[RownhamHill]

errrmm....no that's not what I said at all, that's what you thought because you can't come to grips with a simple concept.

Actually, that is exactly what you said - you said the others were outright champions in whichever pursuit they chose to perform in.

No dispute Wiggo was an outright champion on the track. No dispute he is TdF winner and now Olympic ITT gold medallist.

And would he be the outright champion of the 2012 TdF or not?

The point is these were not at the same time, unlike all the other names mentioned.

That may have been the point you meant to make, but it's not the point you made in the post I was responding to (apologies if you've made that point in a separate post earlier in the thread, I haven't seen it).

Once again no explanation how he went from one discipline to the other when essentially nobody else has accomplished it (and almost not even really in any other sport either). The one or two people who have were champs at everything at the same time.

There's a pretty simple explanation of how he went from one discipline to the other though isn't there. He stopped concentrating on one, and started concentrating on the other.

Whether or not he used drugs on the track, whether or not he used drugs on the road (staring in 2009? or in 20011?), or whether or not he's done the whole thing clean (or whether indeed Mercx, Coppi, Moser or Gerbaisse did any of their stuff clean) is kind of irrelevant to your particular post (either of them) - the point is that it's a matter of fact that he has changed focus, and has become an outright champion in both disciplines.

The logic I'm following in your posts is that he must be on drugs because no one else has ever swapped focus, and when people say well people have, you say well they were champions who did it all at the same time, so they don't count somehow. So it's possible to be a champion on the road and the track at the same time. And it's possible to be a champion on the track OR on the road. But it's not possible to be in between those two extremes and be a champion in one discipline and then later another.

It's obvious nonsense, and doesn't take us any closer to any real evidence of whether Wiggins dopes or not. It just shows that in your opinion he must be doping, because you personally don't like to think of him as an 'outright champion'.

 

[the big ring]

You're welcome. You frequently make me laugh as well.

No Olympic medalist at rowing had ever won a medal at cycling until Romero did. This is actually a lower "conversion rate" than of world class pursuiters to GT contenders. By the logic applied to Wiggo, I assume you are sure that Romero doped her way to success in Beijing?

If she went from 4 minute rowing races to 3 week GTs the comparison would be far more valid.

Fact is she went from ~5 minute (~ 6:15.60 +/- 10 seconds) rowing races to ~5 minute (3:27.703) pursuit races.

So her athletic "aerobic endurance" requirements were halved.

I personally have no issue with this, given the rower women I know and how large and powerful they and their physiologies are.

 

[sittingbison]

If it's so simple, why hasn't it ever been done before? The only guy to do it was Coppi, who was both at the same time. Moser was a blood doper, with a cheat course. Merckx and Indurain did Hour while they were GT champs.

BTW the discussion has never been about swapping sports, that's quite common. It's about disciples within a sport.

You are correct, this notion has been done to death on both threads. Thats enough for me, as like you I am not satisfied with the responses (or usually a lack of). Weight loss bla bla bla, perhaps a read of the 5000 Sky posts will show you the skepticism on that and other issues.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You're welcome. You frequently make me laugh as well.

No Olympic medalist at rowing had ever won a medal at cycling until Romero did. This is actually a lower "conversion rate" than of world class pursuiters to GT contenders. By the logic applied to Wiggo, I assume you are sure that Romero doped her way to success in Beijing?

You really are a funny man, I believe 'the big ring' sums it up nicely.

Really, u should do stand up comedy, actually.

Keep on spinning those wheels Sky/BC fans.

One thing is for sure, she ain't a Connie Carpenter. Go find her on wiki, mate.

 

[Morbius]

There is a difference between a possible Sky and BC programme.
I could accept the possibility of a small group of people taking PEDs together over 1-2 years (though I'm not convinced this happened).

I cannot accept that two entire Olympic track teams could be on a programme, with a four year gap between. It is simply too big to keep quiet - just consider all the people who got dropped somehwere along the line. There would have to be more than 20 riders involved, plus assorted back-room staff. Wouldn't someone take the opportuntiy to make a financially rewarding 'tearful confession'?

Can anyone point to an organised programme of this size and duration that existed at any time in any sport outside a totalitarian country?

 

[sittingbison]

USA sprinters?

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Is there any meat on the bones of the handwaving?

Can you name one country owning a cycling discipline that has afterwards not have been shown related to doping?

Otherwise all your posing is clearly the illogical position.

So the logical position is that the only reason GB is in this position is because of doping? THAT'S logic?

No. The logical thing is to say:-

1. GB are dominating cycling...
2. Is there any evidence (or even rumour) that there's ANY doping...
3. There's never been any rumour...
Therefore
4. They are doing this clean.

This isn't posing. This is asking you doubters to front-up to your doping slurs. But you can't. So - If you've got nothing to give then THAT, my friends, makes it 74 pages of hot air.

We are winning. We are winning clean. Deal with it.

 

[red_death]

Did you listen to the commentator for the 1500m last night Jimmy? Ok he didn't come out and say he thought the winner was a drug cheat but he did everything but. Gatlan was another they targeted and rightly so but no pointing the finger at Farrar, Ohuruogu or ANY GB athlete that I've watched.

Ohurugu has been done to death in the UK. Gatlin was fair game. No idea what you are implying about Mo Farah.

Just out of curiosity, why oh why did Brailsford select David Millar then if the UK cycling and BOC are so vehemently anti-doping? He could have just left him out.

It's funny that Millar wasn't kosher for Sky but is apparently fine for the national team which is run by the same guy. Something tells me Brailsford wishes he hadn't said certain things so that he could sign Millar - that would be more in line with his current views on the sport.

It was quite simple on Millar - given that Millar was now available Brailsford felt he had to pick the best team available for the UK. You are right he could have left him out and reduced the chances of winning. For Sky he made the choice not to pick athletes that have been banned for doping (though I take the point that athletes that may have grounds for suspicion is more of a grey area). Millar is clear in his autobiography that he would loved to have ridden for Sky but was told it wasn't going to happen.

From a few tenth worse than bauge to a few tenth better, that is not a small difference on a 10 second event.
The UK also improved their team sprint time from april by about 1 second. If you follow the sport as you say , this is a MASSIVE difference, a new 1 will make a couple tenths of difference but what we're talking about here is ridiculous.

Absolute nonsense (that it is ridiculous) unless you happen to be French in which case carry on thinking that GB must have cheated - easier than facing reality.

Bauge, you must take up with the relevant French federation.

Ohurogu, take up with the relevant British Federation

Rasmussen got banned for 18months by the Danish Cycling federation according to WADA rules. Fact.

That the various sporting bodies do it differently, well the devil is in the details and the politics of each situation

Your point being what? You said missed test = failed test, you were wrong according to the WADA code. Fact...

 

[red_death]

So the logical position is that the only reason GB is in this position is because of doping? THAT'S logic?

No. The logical thing is to say:-

1. GB are dominating cycling...
2. Is there any evidence (or even rumour) that there's ANY doping...
3. There's never been any rumour...
Therefore
4. They are doing this clean.

This isn't posing. This is asking you doubters to front-up to your doping slurs. But you can't. So - If you've got nothing to give then THAT, my friends, makes it 74 pages of hot air.

We are winning. We are winning clean. Deal with it.

+1. I love the accusations of hand waving....whilst providing absolutely nothing except delusions, slurs and magic wheels....

 

[King Boonen]

+1. I love the accusations of hand waving....whilst providing absolutely nothing except delusions, slurs and magic wheels....

8 year old wheels at that!

 

[red_death]

I cannot accept that two entire Olympic track teams could be on a programme, with a four year gap between. It is simply too big to keep quiet - just consider all the people who got dropped somehwere along the line. There would have to be more than 20 riders involved, plus assorted back-room staff. Wouldn't someone take the opportuntiy to make a financially rewarding 'tearful confession'?

Can anyone point to an organised programme of this size and duration that existed at any time in any sport outside a totalitarian country?

It isn't just 2008 and 2012 though is it. If they are going to do it properly [the false accusations] then they have to go back to the root of it and include 92 (Boardman), 2000 (Queally, Team Sprint, Team Pursuit, Women's Ind Pursuit) and 2004...makes it an even longer time period to keep things quiet!

 

[roundabout]

2000, eh.

4 medals in 12 events. Scary dominant.

The "root" as you put it should be when GB decided that there are "easy" medals for the taking on the track as I keep reading here. Certainly couldn't have been 1992, although some joker here told me that having Boardman is a sign of a long GB track cycling tradition.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Can anyone point to an organised programme of this size and duration that existed at any time in any sport outside a totalitarian country?

Don't want to get into politics but isn't the UK a sick big brother police state? Not to offend English here, but what's the difference with the former state of East Germany when big brother is watching everything through CCTV on almost every corner of the street?

Just mentioning.

When you owe somenone in cycling they own you, that is how omerta works...

We are winning. We are winning clean. Deal with it.

So why is the clean part so important to you? Brits have a conscious?

That said, still congrats to Chris Hoy. Don't matter if he is part of any dope program. Me being a hypocrite

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Well excuse my hyperbole, but you can say whatever you like but I distinctly remember Miss Balding on the BBC (mainstream enough?) no less questioning the exploits of Ye in relation to possible illicit methods. Now I could be mistaken, but I do not seem to remember any such questions being asked in the Velodrome. There it was more hooray's and Britannia rules the waves all the way.

Regards
GJ

China has 4 times as many failed dope tests for swimming than any other nation. They recently had a 16 year old banned for EPO use. They are a controlled totalitarian state. They have had entire squads banned. They came from nowhere to dominate women's distance running and once athletes started getting caught, just as quickly disappeared again. Their history on doping absolutely stinks. Balding was absolutely right to at the very least ask the question of an outlying performance.

What's GB Track Cycling's history on doping? Nothing. No failed tests, just a consistent winning record with a team that since Boardman has run to hundreds of people, none of whom have ever 'squeeled'. Not one shred of evidence that even suggests doping. You think The Guardian or The Daily Telegraph wouldn't want to put one over on Murdoch, even if it meant destroying the sport? So we are well within our rights to give it hoorays and Britannia rules the waves, cause in certain sports, we do.

 

[red_death]

Don't want to get into politics but isn't the UK a sick big brother police state? Not to offend English here, but what's the difference with the former state of East Germany when big brother is watching everything through CCTV on almost every corner of the street?

When you owe somenone in cycling they own you, that is how omerta works...

So why is the clean part so important to you? Brits have a conscious?

That said, still congrats to Chris Hoy. Don't matter if he is part of any dope program. Me being a hypocrite

Quick tin foil helmets time chaps...they are monitoring our every move. If you knew anything about either the UK or East Germany you would realise how offensive you are being to the both (trivialising what the East Germans went through and making out that we have a Stasi-like state).

Omerta gets broken time after time - history has shown us that.

Why is it important to be clean, because the majority of people accept that sport is a game and that for the game to work you can't accept cheating.

 

[Hawkwood]

2000, eh.

4 medals in 12 events. Scary dominant.

The "root" as you put it should be when GB decided that there are "easy" medals for the taking on the track as I keep reading here. Certainly couldn't have been 1992, although some joker here told me that having Boardman is a sign of a long GB track cycling tradition.

A sort of long GB track tradition, for years it was the one branch of cycling were Britain won the odd medal, think Reg Harris, Beryl Burton, Tony Doyle, Sean Yates, and mainly in the pursuit. Also the number of cycle tracks that either used to exist or still do suggests that this branch of the sport used to be popular. See the following link for a 600m track about 20kms from where I live http://www.dover.gov.uk/council_property/parks__open_spaces/key_sites/crabble_athletic_ground.aspx
Few people know about this track, and fewer still use it. Grass track racing still continues, and it has been a professional sport in the Highland Games for years.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Don't want to get into politics but isn't the UK a sick big brother police state? Not to offend English here, but what's the difference with the former state of East Germany when big brother is watching everything through CCTV on almost every corner of the street?

Just mentioning.

I hope you're not seriously comparing the UK to East Germany because of our CCTV cameras? And suggesting that because of these CCTV cameras we are similar to a totalitarian state and morally bankrupt enough to employ a state-sponsored doping programme for our athletes?

Oh hang on, you said not to offend the English, that's ok then, phew, because if you were trying to be offensive you would have managed it.

 

[lemoogle]

It's not a game when some countries pour hundreds of thousands into tech for the sport. Even if you really want to believe Team GB's track team isn't doped , can't you see what their own british media is saying about their domination? all I see is articles about how they're ahead technologically etc. etc.
Even brailsford said something about their cutting edge skin suits after beijing , only to retract that after the UCI investigated when he said he destroyed the suits.
Even if we listen to the British media's excuses for their sudden domination, this isn't a game anymore, it's Formula 1.
At least in Formula one, the technology is regulated and you can't dope the drivers ( yet ).

 

[Markyboyzx6r]

Don't want to get into politics but isn't the UK a sick big brother police state? Not to offend English here, but what's the difference with the former state of East Germany when big brother is watching everything through CCTV on almost every corner of the street?

Just mentioning.

When you owe somenone in cycling they own you, that is how omerta works...

So why is the clean part so important to you? Brits have a conscious?

That said, still congrats to Chris Hoy. Don't matter if he is part of any dope program. Me being a hypocrite

I take it you don't live in the UK. I do. It's a wonderful country and we are putting on a brilliant Olympics. If you think it's a "sick big brother police state" you really should come visit and look around the place, it's lovely.

I'm really rather proud of our dear old country. We don't get it right all the time and we have our problems, but when we do get it right we get it really right - like these Olympics, for instance.

 

[JimmyFingers]

Even brailsford said something about their cutting edge skin suits after beijing , only to retract that after the UCI investigated when he said he destroyed the suits.

OMG you are so badly informed. The skinsuits they used in Beijing were essentially rubber and have since been outlawed by the UCI. There was a popular rumour that they were destroyed after the games but it was rubbish, doesn't stop you regurgitating it here.

Our tech is within UCI rules, end of story. Oh apart from our magic flying wheels

 

[Lanark]

Can anyone point to an organised programme of this size and duration that existed at any time in any sport outside a totalitarian country?

The university of Ferrara (Conconi) and Freiburg were running doping programmes for athletes, which pretty much constitutes state sponsored doping.

Of course, for large scale and long term organised doping programmes you can look at pretty much any cycling team between (say) 1992 an 1998, probably a lot sooner and later as well.

 

[roundabout]

A sort of long GB track tradition, for years it was the one branch of cycling were Britain won the odd medal, think Reg Harris, Beryl Burton, Tony Doyle, Sean Yates, and mainly in the pursuit. Also the number of cycle tracks that either used to exist or still do suggests that this branch of the sport used to be popular. See the following link for a 600m track about 20kms from where I live http://www.dover.gov.uk/council_property/parks__open_spaces/key_sites/crabble_athletic_ground.aspx
Few people know about this track, and fewer still use it. Grass track racing still continues, and it has been a professional sport in the Highland Games for years.

I don't really disagree. But as it was a bit (well actually quite a lot in some cases) before my time, I got the impression that the athletes you mentioned were outstanding individuals and the overall team performance wasn't anywhere near as good as today.

When I got into following cycling 15 or so years ago, Australia, France, Germany, Netherlands were to my mind better teams. Of course it could be that it was a low point in British track cycling, so my perception is a bit clouded.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Omerta gets broken time after time - history has shown us that.

When? Who? What were the consequences?

Put them up for me please.

 

[Benotti69]

China has 4 times as many failed dope tests for swimming than any other nation. They recently had a 16 year old banned for EPO use. They are a controlled totalitarian state. They have had entire squads banned. They came from nowhere to dominate women's distance running and once athletes started getting caught, just as quickly disappeared again. Their history on doping absolutely stinks. Balding was absolutely right to at the very least ask the question of an outlying performance.

What's GB Track Cycling's history on doping? Nothing. No failed tests, just a consistent winning record with a team that since Boardman has run to hundreds of people, none of whom have ever 'squeeled'. Not one shred of evidence that even suggests doping. You think The Guardian or The Daily Telegraph wouldn't want to put one over on Murdoch, even if it meant destroying the sport? So we are well within our rights to give it hoorays and Britannia rules the waves, cause in certain sports, we do.

And that can be mirrored in the handling of Fuyu's positive test for Clen and Contador's positive test for Clen.

One heard it through the media and the other was part of an attempted cover up!

The Guardian/Telegraph will probably be the ones to break the story of the TeamGB/Sky systematic doping.

Patience.