Geert Leinders

[Netserk]

How about reading the article I took the time to link and that has direct quotes, the "butter", the "most protected", etc...

Those were the words of Leinders (to Rasmussen). I doubt those were objective.

 

[neineinei]

Butter on the head seams like bad a choice of words when one is talking to someone called the Chicken

All the more satisfying to see Leinders roasted by Rasmussen in the end.

 

[MarkvW]

Again Rasmussen was never destined to win anything big.
When he suddenly looked like becoming a major star based on a doping program he found himself without serious friends.

ASO not interested
Rabobank wasn't really that interested
UCI not interested

Only Denmark (not all parties) and some fans were interested.

No money and powerful people thought it was better to get rid of him.

I wonder if they regret some of these decisions today.

Maybe, but Rasmussen wasn't an isolated target. Rabobank blew up the whole team shortly after Rasmussen's departure.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Butter on the head seams like bad a choice of words when one is talking to someone called the Chicken

All the more satisfying to see Leinders roasted by Rasmussen in the end.

hehehehe

ironic too, given the nickname for EPO stored in the fridge by the USPS cadre.

 

[blackcat]

Butter on the head seams like bad a choice of words when one is talking to someone called the Chicken

All the more satisfying to see Leinders roasted by Rasmussen in the end.

tikka masala?

tikka chicken?

 

[D-Queued]

Dave isn't arguing that USPS was worse than Rabo, he's arguing that USPS was unique. That's ridiculous.

I don't think that being a more successful cheat is "worse" than being an unsuccessful cheat. The moral offense is the same.

And as far as "ruining careers" goes, that is bad--but it didn't make him go faster on the bike.

Okay, a couple more examples:

Cancer Jesus, pocketing all those appearance fees and never donating a dime. Unique.
Lobbying to compete in triathlon post lifetime ban. Unique.*

Look, you love Lance. Face it. He was unique. That makes USPS unique.

*Add that a member of the sponsor cadre assembled to 'assist Lance' as he re-embarked in triathlon recently noted in a private conversation, "testing isn't as rigorous in triathlon as it is cycling".

Now, was that a cynical statement, a projection, or a common understanding within the group?

Whichever way you interpret it, it goes back to character. Unique.

A character well understood by all those closest to him. Unique.

And Rabo exposing Rasmussen? If you are right, then that undermines your entire argument that Rabo was anywhere near as bad as USPS.

Postal was a masterpiece of choreographed deception. Apparently, as you suggest, Rabo was not.

Too bad. Maybe Leinders is/was better than we think. If so, Rabo sold him short too.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

Okay, a couple more examples:

Cancer Jesus, pocketing all those appearance fees and never donating a dime. Unique.
Lobbying to compete in triathlon post lifetime ban. Unique.*

Look, you love Lance. Face it. He was unique. That makes USPS unique.

*Add that a member of the sponsor cadre assembled to 'assist Lance' as he re-embarked in triathlon recently noted in a private conversation, "testing isn't as rigorous in triathlon as it is cycling".

Now, was that a cynical statement, a projection, or a common understanding within the group?

Whichever way you interpret it, it goes back to character. Unique.

A character well understood by all those closest to him. Unique.

And Rabo exposing Rasmussen? If you are right, then that undermines your entire argument that Rabo was anywhere near as bad as USPS.

Postal was a masterpiece of choreographed deception. Apparently, as you suggest, Rabo was not.

Too bad. Maybe Leinders is/was better than we think. If so, Rabo sold him short too.

Dave.

Please forget Lance for a couple of minutes. I know it is very difficult for you, but you will soon be able to return to your complacent, self-satisfied, hate.

Maybe then, if only for a fraction of a second, you might be able to glimpse just how filthy professional cycling is.

 

[neineinei]

The other Rabo doc Rasmussen talks about, Jan-Paul van Mantgem, is he still in cycling? Or retired?

 

[D-Queued]

Please forget Lance for a couple of minutes. I know it is very difficult for you, but you will soon be able to return to your complacent, self-satisfied, hate.

Maybe then, if only for a fraction of a second, you might be able to glimpse just how filthy professional cycling is.

OMG!



These eyes are cryin'

Dave.

 

[thehog]

Please forget Lance for a couple of minutes. I know it is very difficult for you, but you will soon be able to return to your complacent, self-satisfied, hate.

Maybe then, if only for a fraction of a second, you might be able to glimpse just how filthy professional cycling is.

Agreed. "Choreographed deception"? Jesus. It was a bunch uneducated sports guys injecting themselves with sludge. It was cash in envelopes, midnight trips across borders and blood transfusions in hotels with the keyholes taped up.

It was basically college. Just swap out the beer for EPO and cheating in cycling to cheating on exams.

Choreographed deception, my ***.

 

[burning]

Maybe, but Rasmussen wasn't an isolated target. Rabobank blew up the whole team shortly after Rasmussen's departure.

Shortly= 5 years?

I always feel sad about Rasmussen, he definitely deserved to be on the podium in Paris.

 

[D-Queued]

Agreed. "Choreographed deception"? Jesus. It was a bunch uneducated sports guys injecting themselves with sludge. It was cash in envelopes, midnight trips across borders and blood transfusions in hotels with the keyholes taped up.

It was basically college. Just swap out the beer for EPO and cheating in cycling to cheating on exams.

Choreographed deception, my ***.

College? Or High School?

I heard that some guys chased down, did the zip lips thing as some sort of threat and even spat on another cyclist because he came forward about some doping doctor.

Can you believe that?

It's just like these guys thought they ran things or something.

Dave.

 

[MarkvW]

And any honest discussion of the "uniqueness" of sports cheats needs to address Saiz' treatment of Jesus Manzano. What did anyone do to top that?

 

[42x16ss]

And any honest discussion of the "uniqueness" of sports cheats needs to address Saiz' treatment of Jesus Manzano. What did anyone do to top that?

How about destroying someone's entire public reputation, tearing down their business and poisoning all of their business relationships?

 

[ChewbaccaD]

How about destroying someone's entire public reputation, tearing down their business and poisoning all of their business relationships?

How about giving information about the doping practices to the UCI for former teammates? While you were doped to the gills...

But it was Totes McGoats level playing field. I didn't think things could get dumber than when the Lance fanboys were in full effect while he was riding, but I was so wrong. So wrong.

 

[MarkvW]

How about destroying someone's entire public reputation, tearing down their business and poisoning all of their business relationships?

Beats nearly killing someone? I think not.

 

[42x16ss]

How about giving information about the doping practices to the UCI for former teammates? While you were doped to the gills...

But it was Totes McGoats level playing field. I didn't think things could get dumber than when the Lance fanboys were in full effect while he was riding, but I was so wrong. So wrong.

Oh yeah, completely level

Any rider could have done it.

 

[42x16ss]

Beats nearly killing someone? I think not.

Tip: not all harm done has to be physical.

Also, Manzano was a victim of negligence, not outright sociopathic maliciousness.

 

[MarkvW]

Tip: not all harm done has to be physical.

Also, Manzano was a victim of negligence, not outright sociopathic maliciousness.

You're killing me! Apparently recklessly almost killing someone hardly even begins to factor into the scheme of how really bad things are in professional cycling!

 

[42x16ss]

You're killing me! Apparently recklessly almost killing someone hardly even begins to factor into the scheme of how really bad things are in professional cycling!

I thought we were debating how Lance Armstrong is/isn't a unique character, but ok, shift those goalposts...

 

[MarkvW]

I thought we were debating how Lance Armstrong is/isn't a unique character, but ok, shift those goalposts...

Your argument doesn't hold water. You can't make Lance unique without whitewashing the professional peloton.

 

[42x16ss]

Your argument doesn't hold water. You can't make Lance unique without whitewashing the professional peloton.

Since when does pointing out Armstrong's corrupt, sociopathic tendencies and behaviour whitewash the peloton? What he did was so much worse that he needs to be approached differently to everyone else.

If you struggle to see why, then maybe you need to reassess your stance on certain aspects of human behaviour.

 

[MarkvW]

Since when does pointing out Armstrong's corrupt, sociopathic tendencies and behaviour whitewash the peloton? What he did was so much worse that he needs to be approached differently to everyone else.

If you struggle to see why, then maybe you need to reassess your stance on certain aspects of human behaviour.

Now who is changing the goalposts? This is not about Lance's punishment. I fully agree that his punishment is appropriate. My problem with your argument is that you view Lance as an aberration, while I view him as a direct (albeit extreme) descendant of Eddy Merckx.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Since when does pointing out Armstrong's corrupt, sociopathic tendencies and behaviour whitewash the peloton? What he did was so much worse that he needs to be approached differently to everyone else.

If you struggle to see why, then maybe you need to reassess your stance on certain aspects of human behaviour.

Don't try to talk sense with the fanboys. They can't be swayed. Armstrong was just another doper, and you'll never convince them differently...because cognitive dissonance is incurable.

 

[simo1733]

How does Leinders happen to fall within USADA Juristiction?