Geert Leinders

[Caruut]

well, he's obviously a specialists in infectious diseases. That's why they got him after the death of Gonzalez, right?

Does anyone else find it just weird that they hire a guy whose specialty is blood doping after the soigneur dies from complications from sepsis?

Yes, I do.

If Brailsford's use of González's death to justify hiring a doping doctor wasn't quite so disgusting it would almost be funny that he even dared to trot that BS out.

Bacterial infection is obviously serious, but I can't see quite how cycling teams are particularly at risk; let alone enough at risk to justify hiring medical staff to deal with it. In actual fact, I would have thought that regular GPs might even be better for such things than guys who have spent the past 25 years in sport.

This incident was the one that really made me feel that Sky had descended into a situation where the ends justified the means.

 

[goggalor]

Yates is just as dodgy as Leinders. He tested positive in 89 (Sky hired him already in 2009, so much for not signing dopers), but more interesting is his time as a DS at Disco/Astana. We know that team (or at least its predecessor) had a doping program, might be time for cycling journos to ask Yates about something other than stage profiles.

 

[131313]

Yes, I do.

If Brailsford's use of González's death to justify hiring a doping doctor wasn't quite so disgusting it would almost be funny that he even dared to trot that BS out.

Bacterial infection is obviously serious, but I can't see quite how cycling teams are particularly at risk;

think about the bacterial infection in question, then think about what you just wrote above...

I know, I'm going to sound like a bit of a conspiracy nut, but what the hell. At this point I think anything is possible. Testing the half-life of various protocols on someone close to the team? It wouldn't be the first time.

 

[Runitout]

Do share!

Sorry hrotha, I can't do that.

And I don't have objective means to test its veracity, in any event.

 

[UlleGigo]

the actual guru remains unknown.

 

[Caruut]

think about the bacterial infection in question, then think about what you just wrote above...

I know, I'm going to sound like a bit of a conspiracy nut, but what the hell. At this point I think anything is possible. Testing the half-life of various protocols on someone close to the team? It wouldn't be the first time.

The reporting at the time was quite confused - there was a separate viral infection that many of the team were suffering from (the kind of thing one could reasonably argue an experienced cycling doctor would be useful for) as well as the bacterial one that González tragically died from.

To be honest, I hadn't really thought that TG's death might be doping-related until now. It is possible, although I still think it unlikely. What other known cases are there of team staff testing products? Voet is the only one I can think of.

 

[Franklin]

I get the impression (and this is mildly funny) that Leinders seems to be small fish. The kind who's there mostly to make sure their riders won't trip any wires, rather than the doping guru type. Not a Del Moral. I mean, if you're going to take the risk of hiring a dodgy doctor, at least get one of the highly-priced ones!

Of course I could be completely wrong about Leinders. Maybe inside the peloton he's seen in a different light. After all, I hadn't heard of Ibarguren until this season.

Considering he was part of the Rabobank team management triumvirate and as such shown as having commited sporting fraud by lieing about the whereabouts of Michael Rasmussen (court ruling in the Rabo vs MR case!) he most certainly is not "small fry". Furthermore there is a clear and open allegation that he got "carte blanche" on making it medically possible to produce a GT winner.

- The Rabobank team is a very large, well funded and well organized team. Anyone of the management team is very much a big shot in cycling.
- The fraud allegation never was pursued... but it was never ever even handwaved by those involved. Not a squeak of libel or an attempt at poohpoohing.
- The implied charge that he ran a program to produce a GT winner.... was never ever even handwaved by those involved. Not a squeak of libel or an attempt at poohpoohing.

The silent acknowledgment of the charges is very, very clear here. And this is what makes it all the more odd that Brailsford, mr "dotting the i" ad no clue who he was hiring. Leinders is more than a rumored bad guy, his name turns up in court orders (doping fraud) and in testimonies of him getting the direct order to start a program.

Hes managed to stay low as he only worked for his team, but the allegations make it crystal clear. He is not a fall guy, he's someone who is expert at running a ring and making sure the riders don't test positive. He actually got away with it with Michael Rasmussen if we discount the late predated test for Dynepo*. "Never tested positive".

In Leinders case we have a lot of smoke... and definite signs of fire.

 

[Random Direction]

... his name turns up in court orders (doping fraud) and in testimonies of him getting the direct order to start a program.

If you or someone else could provide a links to and/or images of the court orders and testimonies, it would be really appreciated. Build up the facts, have them in one place.

Would love one of the non-Murdoch rags to go to town on this one.

p.s. Franklin, location Flatland - you in Manitoba?

 

[zlev11]

Did Rasmussen ever actually test postive for CERA? I thought it was Dynepo?

 

[JRanton]

Yes, I do.

If Brailsford's use of González's death to justify hiring a doping doctor wasn't quite so disgusting it would almost be funny that he even dared to trot that BS out.

Bacterial infection is obviously serious, but I can't see quite how cycling teams are particularly at risk; let alone enough at risk to justify hiring medical staff to deal with it. In actual fact, I would have thought that regular GPs might even be better for such things than guys who have spent the past 25 years in sport.

This incident was the one that really made me feel that Sky had descended into a situation where the ends justified the means.

Is there a direct quote from Brailsford where he actually refers to the death of Gonzalez in relation to the hiring of Leinders? All I've seen is a journalist reference the death of Gonzalez alongside the Sky riders falling ill at the start of that Vuelta.

 

[Race Radio]

Anyone heard what luigi Cecchini is up to these days?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Did Rasmussen ever actually test postive for CERA? I thought it was Dynepo?

Like most I don't think he ever tested positive for anything. IDK if it was Dynepo or something else, but early history when he was a MTB pro had him trying to get a fellow pro/roommate(?) to bring a shoebox back to Europe in his luggage which was allegedly full of PEDs.

 

[Franklin]

If you or someone else could provide a links to and/or images of the court orders and testimonies, it would be really appreciated. Build up the facts, have them in one place.

Would love one of the non-Murdoch rags to go to town on this one.

p.s. Franklin, location Flatland - you in Manitoba?

I'm Dutch

There is a ton of info in Dutch on this case:

First of there is the newspaper reporting
http://www.trouw.nl/tr/nl/4324/nieu...aan-het-adres-van-ploegleiding-Rabobank.dhtml

Then there is the judicial case which Michael Rasmussen (at least partly) won.

http://www.marinusvromans.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/12/Sport-en-Recht-Rasmussen-Rabo.pdf

Lazy google translate:

On June 6, 2007 Rasmussen in Italy Breukink, also general manager of Rabobank, meet and between them is the preparation for the Tour de France 2007 are discussed.
On June 8, 2007, Rasmussen was sent from Italy to the Anti-Doping Commission informed of a visit to Mexico from 4 June to 12 June.
On 12 June, Rasmussen a letter from Mexico to the post made ​​to the UCI to informto 28 June 2007 that he would remain in Mexico. The UCI received that letter on 29 June 2007.
On 15 June 2007, Rasmussen asked Breukink to send the routes of the Alps to Stages by mail, the next day by the DS de Rooij sent those to Rasmussen at his home address in Italy by fax. From 25 to 29 June 2007, Rasmussen with Rabo trained in the Pyrenees. Team manager De Rooij this training Rabo telephoned to the UCI.

Add the warnings of the Danish union etc. The management team (Breukink, de Rooij, Leinders) knew alright. The correspondence between Rasmussen and the team also shows that this was all really in the open and without any holding back.

When later the management team claimed to have "forgotten" the judge probably bust a vessel

 

[Hugh Januss]

Anyone heard what luigi Cecchini is up to these days?

IDK, does he work for Liquigas? If so he should be fired, he's obviously way behind the curve.

 

[TubularBills]

Is there a direct quote from Brailsford where he actually refers to the death of Gonzalez in relation to the hiring of Leinders? All I've seen is a journalist reference the death of Gonzalez alongside the Sky riders falling ill at the start of that Vuelta.

Here is the original story:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-1308967/Team-Sky-withdraw-riders-Tour-Spain-death-assistant.html

& the more recent Brailsford reference and quotes:

The Times (London)

July 11, 2012 Wednesday


Brailsford explained that Sky had employed Leinders in extreme circumstances after the Vuelta in 2010. Sky had initially made it their policy to employ only medical staff who were British and who had no history in professional cycling, as part of an effort to make a concerted break from the sport's dirty past.

On that Vuelta, however, many riders suffered from vomiting and the team withdrew after the death of one of the soigneurs, Txema Gonzalez, from a virus. Brailsford said: "We had all these riders sick going: 'What is going on? This isn't good enough.' And you think: 'We're putting these guys at risk here.' We sat down afterwards and we said: 'We do not know enough about looking after people in extreme heat and extreme fatigue.' " It was soon afterwards that Brailsford decided that his principles were no longer workable. "We needed some experience," he said. "That's why we decided to go and get him. Has he been a good doctor? Brilliant. The guy really understands. It's not about doping, it's about genuine medical practice."

 

[Ferminal]

Anyone heard what luigi Cecchini is up to these days?

Probably still coaching Cancellara and a raft of other "clean" riders.

 

[Franklin]

Anyone heard what luigi Cecchini is up to these days?

If he was behind the Rabo deal it would have been a direct link with OP. The problem is that this seems tenuous at best. We can attempt to link two riders (Dekker and Boogerd) by their nicknames, but that's as far as I get. Also, the only one truly linked with Luigi was Thomas Dekker (who even lived next to him). Whereas the Humanplasma connection is clearly teamwide doping.

So I'm not convinced Checcini was involved with teamwide "advices", though he certainly "helped" individuals

The lack of positives and the proof of teamwide doping (Human Plasma, testimonies of Leinders ordered to set up a doping structure) show that the rabo certainly had their business discreety but profesionally set up. the results were rather good too (4 GT's, counting MR).

The lack of outside links is indicative of in house actions. Note that Leinders surely has enough knowledge and acces to this knowledge to mock up an efficient scheme. Even if we disregard the fraud allegations, he is the 800 pound gorilla in the corner. He's by far the most likely executor of the scheme. And if he wasn't the mastermind he must have known the details(and if he didn't he's criminally incompetent^^).

And before someone starts:

In this case we are talking about evidence and proof. This is NOT innuendo.

 

[TubularBills]

Anyone heard what luigi Cecchini is up to these days?

The databases go dark after this in 2008, Kimmage on David Millar:

In the summer of 2005 he turned the corner. Brailsford had encouraged him to start training again, he was dating a wonderful girl, and he was suddenly counting the days until the end of his ban. A year later, his return to the big stage was the prologue of the Tour, but he still seemed confused about who he wanted to be.

How, for example, could he claim to be clean and associate with a coach like Luigi Cecchini, whose former clients included Bjarne Riis (confessed doper), Tyler Hamilton (banned doper) and Ivan Basso (banned doper)? The critics showed no mercy.

Weekend Australian

July 12, 2008 Saturday
1 - All-round Country Edition

Jail, depression and leaving the Brotherhood of the Needle

BYLINE: Paul Kimmage

SECTION: SPORT; Pg. 58

LENGTH: 2683 words

aka:

The doper's redemption
Paul Kimmage
The Sunday Times Published: 06 July 2008 More sport
In May 2004, on the eve of a race in northern France, I walked into the lobby of David Millar’s team hotel and left...Procycling (magazine) you expressed your frustration at the lack of coverage you’ve been getting in the...

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

If he was behind the Rabo deal it would have been a direct link with OP. The problem is that this seems tenuous at best. We can attempt to link two riders (Dekker and Boogerd) by their nicknames, but that's as far as I get. Also, the only one truly linked with Luigi was Thomas Dekker (who even lived next to him). Whereas the Humanplasma connection is clearly teamwide doping.

So I'm not convinced Checcini was involved with teamwide "advices", though he certainly "helped" individuals

The lack of positives and the proof of teamwide doping (Human Plasma, testimonies of Leinders ordered to set up a doping structure) show that the rabo certainly had their business discreety but profesionally set up. the results were rather good too (4 GT's, counting MR).

The lack of outside links is indicative of in house actions. Note that Leinders surely has enough knowledge and acces to this knowledge to mock up an efficient scheme. Even if we disregard the fraud allegations, he is the 800 pound gorilla in the corner. He's by far the most likely executor of the scheme. And if he wasn't the mastermind he must have known the details(and if he didn't he's criminally incompetent^^).

And before someone starts:

In this case we are talking about evidence and proof. This is NOT innuendo.

Based on the current, emotionally charged climate, this should be a sticky.

Great post, thanks!

 

[Cobblestones]

I know, I'm going to sound like a bit of a conspiracy nut, but what the hell. At this point I think anything is possible. Testing the half-life of various protocols on someone close to the team? It wouldn't be the first time.

If this is near the truth, then cheating their way to win a few silly bike races is the least of their problems. Stuff like that carries long time prison terms.

 

[Darryl Webster]

If you or someone else could provide a links to and/or images of the court orders and testimonies, it would be really appreciated. Build up the facts, have them in one place.

Would love one of the non-Murdoch rags to go to town on this one.

p.s. Franklin, location Flatland - you in Manitoba?

This is exactly my thinking. If the journalists aint gonna do there job maybe we can do it for them. By building up a profile on the dirty docs, putting all the "evidence" , past and present, " were are they now" etc we can find in one place it makes it easy for em. The fans of clean cycling have to fight back.

Perhaps call it "Doc Watch"

 

[sniper]

do we know who broke the story on Leinders' Sky contract?
how much did Sky try to keep this a secret?
on their website there is no section for the medical staff, whereas most other pro-teams' websites do have such a section, simply listing the members of the medical staff.

 

[Darryl Webster]

do we know who broke the story on Leinders' Sky contract?
how much did Sky try to keep this a secret?
on their website there is no section for the medical staff, whereas most other pro-teams' websites do have such a section, simply listing the members of the medical staff.

Thats a very interesting point because it would appear that for 3 years it was kept out of the public domain . 3 whole years yet Brailsford descibes him as "brilliant".
What exactly is he brilliant at?

 

[Franklin]

Darryl, there already is such a website, in Dutch:

Dopingzaak.nl

I advice everyone to go there, they simply state the facts and list who are employed where and who they trained. It's shocking. And even then they missed out people like Menuet (medic of Coppel) who was implicated in the Cofidis scandal,

Thats a very interesting point because it would appear that for 3 years it was kept out of the public domain . 3 whole years yet Brailsford descibes him as "brilliant".
What exactly is he brilliant at?

That's obvious and I'm not kidding around:

He's obviously brilliant at keeping his riders testing negative.

Keep in mind that under his watch there were no positives except retroactively. He worked with alledged dopers as, Jans Koerts Thomas Dekker and Michael Rasmussen. He managed Menchov to remain uncaught (and yes, I 100% assume he is guilty due to his passport and involvement in Human Plasma). We can add Boogerd, Weening and Posthuma if the Austrian police is a trustworthy source

Jans Koerts, the one of the saline tablets actually admitted that indeed he was using Epo (hahaha for his natural high Hema). A success for Leinders and one of which we have first hand testimony of his involvement in passing the tests.

And before anyone even remotely downplays his skills: When he managed the medical team at Rabo they won three GT's and it's really not unfair to say he had a hand in the fourth, the Giro. He was fired before that, but he had managed Mencov until he hit that level.

A third thing he should be noted for is that while he managed the medical team at Rabo The Chicken could transform as a skinny guy into a powerful decent timetrialist.... and still not gaining a kilo. It's the other way around of Wiggo, but the paralel imagery: insanely low fat, high power certainly is there.

I agree with Brailsford, Geert certainly had a brilliant career at Rabo. But it isn't one that befits a clean cycling team and it certainly warrants big red flags.

 

[Runitout]

Thats a very interesting point because it would appear that for 3 years it was kept out of the public domain . 3 whole years yet Brailsford descibes him as "brilliant".
What exactly is he brilliant at?

What's interesting is that he was supposedly hired as a result of a staff member's death, yet no announcement was made that might have given succour to the riders, press and grieving family that this would not happen again. Seems unlike Sky. Particularly if he is 'brilliant'. If a warm-down and periodisation are each marginal gains capable of making one win the Tour (in that case my u/10s footy team were all underachievers), then why not trumpet this?

As stated, I had heard that one of their riders was using help of a different stripe entirely for his training plans, so I don't quite know who to believe.