General Doping Thread.

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Re:

Norks74 said:
PY: Is it because they're all thinner?

AP: That's a theory that our doctor has. He says that they're too thin and don't rest in the winter. We did running in winter and did some gym work. Now it seems like every crash leads to bones being broken. Did you ever break anything?

PY: No, I always bounced.

AP: I didn't either. They have helmets that withstand so much now.

Steroids affecting bone density perhaps? Or is there just less cushion from the impact due to being so lean?
They had steroids in the 80s too, you know. They probably used them more then than they do now.

Not everything is related to doping.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
Norks74 said:
PY: Is it because they're all thinner?

AP: That's a theory that our doctor has. He says that they're too thin and don't rest in the winter. We did running in winter and did some gym work. Now it seems like every crash leads to bones being broken. Did you ever break anything?

PY: No, I always bounced.

AP: I didn't either. They have helmets that withstand so much now.

Steroids affecting bone density perhaps? Or is there just less cushion from the impact due to being so lean?
They had steroids in the 80s too, you know. They probably used them more then than they do now.

Not everything is related to doping.
The comments were about riders being thinner. Riders have never been this thin, least of all in the 80s.

Not every post that points out the obvious about Sky needs a response.
 
Re: Re:

red_flanders said:
Parker said:
Norks74 said:
PY: Is it because they're all thinner?

AP: That's a theory that our doctor has. He says that they're too thin and don't rest in the winter. We did running in winter and did some gym work. Now it seems like every crash leads to bones being broken. Did you ever break anything?

PY: No, I always bounced.

AP: I didn't either. They have helmets that withstand so much now.

Steroids affecting bone density perhaps? Or is there just less cushion from the impact due to being so lean?
They had steroids in the 80s too, you know. They probably used them more then than they do now.

Not everything is related to doping.
The comments were about riders being thinner. Riders have never been this thin, least of all in the 80s.

Not every post that points out the obvious about Sky needs a response.
And Norks74's comment was suggesting it was steroids. Try reading next time.
 
Re: Re:

Parker said:
red_flanders said:
Parker said:
Norks74 said:
PY: Is it because they're all thinner?

AP: That's a theory that our doctor has. He says that they're too thin and don't rest in the winter. We did running in winter and did some gym work. Now it seems like every crash leads to bones being broken. Did you ever break anything?

PY: No, I always bounced.

AP: I didn't either. They have helmets that withstand so much now.

Steroids affecting bone density perhaps? Or is there just less cushion from the impact due to being so lean?
They had steroids in the 80s too, you know. They probably used them more then than they do now.

Not everything is related to doping.
The comments were about riders being thinner. Riders have never been this thin, least of all in the 80s.

Not every post that points out the obvious about Sky needs a response.
And Norks74's comment was suggesting it was steroids. Try reading next time.
Obviously I saw that. My comment stands.
 
Is it just being thinner? Aren't they also racing at faster speed and taking more risks? I would think that entire combination of things helps to lead to more serious injuries.
In this sense you can look at American football. There are a lot more injuries, serious injuries in the past few years than there were for decades before. (Not talking about concussion in this instance, but about torn ACL's and broken bones) In that sense this isn't just a cycling issue, this seems to be a sports issue in general. In football it's thought that it's because the athletes are bigger, stronger, faster AND in better shape year round that is leading to a higher number of injuries. So it would make some sense the same could be true in cycling.
 
Sep 15, 2016
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Re: Re:

Parker said:
Norks74 said:
PY: Is it because they're all thinner?

AP: That's a theory that our doctor has. He says that they're too thin and don't rest in the winter. We did running in winter and did some gym work. Now it seems like every crash leads to bones being broken. Did you ever break anything?

PY: No, I always bounced.

AP: I didn't either. They have helmets that withstand so much now.

Steroids affecting bone density perhaps? Or is there just less cushion from the impact due to being so lean?
They had steroids in the 80s too, you know. They probably used them more then than they do now.

Not everything is related to doping.
Not all steroids cause negative changes in bone density (testosterone has the opposite effect actually), but corticoids are known to cause osteporosis with long term usage. Combine that with being super thin and it makes a lot of sense. Especially when thinness can be linked to corticoid abuse.
 
Re:

GraftPunk said:
My take on US football is that the doping science is ahead of cycling (although different because they're seeking muscle mass and explosive power as well as recovery), and the testing is way behind. So much gets swept under the rug and no one GAF, see Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and the number of players who go to miracle cure docs in Florida...

The excuses are also about 10 years behind pro cycling. The old "I've never doped it was a tainted supplement" seems pretty laughable. Though, since suspensions are so pitiful (4 games???) better to take your medicine, as it were, and get back out there...if the first-offense penalty was a whole season, we'd see some really creative excuses as well as lots more lawyering up and fighting the procedures etc.
 
Sep 6, 2016
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Re: Re:

Bolder said:
GraftPunk said:
My take on US football is that the doping science is ahead of cycling (although different because they're seeking muscle mass and explosive power as well as recovery), and the testing is way behind. So much gets swept under the rug and no one GAF, see Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and the number of players who go to miracle cure docs in Florida...

The excuses are also about 10 years behind pro cycling. The old "I've never doped it was a tainted supplement" seems pretty laughable. Though, since suspensions are so pitiful (4 games???) better to take your medicine, as it were, and get back out there...if the first-offense penalty was a whole season, we'd see some really creative excuses as well as lots more lawyering up and fighting the procedures etc.

I think the assumption that the NFL wants to have clean sport is faulty. How does that benefit the NFL? The public either thinks the NFL is clean (doubtful) or doesn't care. Think about AP coming back from an acl tear and nearly setting the NFL's single season rushing record. People loved that. Do PEDs help athletes recover from injuries more quickly? Yep!
 
Re: Re:

Bolder said:
...if the first-offense penalty was a whole season, we'd see some really creative excuses as well as lots more lawyering up and fighting the procedures etc.
This is exactly what I do like about Pro Football's doping stance (and that's about it) and dislike about cycling. Football players by and large take their suspensions and move on. The next offense is a season I believe, then later a lifetime ban I think after 4 offenses.

I think that ratchets down all the legal nonsense, and punishes repeat offenders appropriately. Sure you could adjust or modify, etc.

To be clear their testing regime is a joke and they have no legitimate interest in stopping doping. They are pretty good at stopping bad press about doping, however.
 
Re: Re:

Bolder said:
GraftPunk said:
My take on US football is that the doping science is ahead of cycling (although different because they're seeking muscle mass and explosive power as well as recovery), and the testing is way behind. So much gets swept under the rug and no one GAF, see Brett Favre, Peyton Manning and the number of players who go to miracle cure docs in Florida...

The excuses are also about 10 years behind pro cycling. The old "I've never doped it was a tainted supplement" seems pretty laughable. Though, since suspensions are so pitiful (4 games???) better to take your medicine, as it were, and get back out there...if the first-offense penalty was a whole season, we'd see some really creative excuses as well as lots more lawyering up and fighting the procedures etc.
I remember talking to someone who quit amateur rugby because he came up against too many roiders. He said if you don't take drugs in athletics you lose, if you don't take them in rugby you end up in hospital. Same choice, plus a bit, with US football.
 
Administering sodium bicarbonate to horses on race day - Bicarbonate is used to help prevent the build-up of lactic acid but cannot be administered within one clear day of a horse racing.
https://www.smh.com.au/sport/racing/trainer-denies-involvement-in-race-day-treatments-as-aquanita-inquiry-continues-20180501-p4zcpc.html
Queensland trainer Liam Birchley has denied being involved in giving horses race day treatments or knowing about a "circle of trust" of people behind the practice that allegedly extended to Melbourne Cup runners.

Racing Victoria stewards allege horses were given "top-ups" of bicarbonate over seven years, charging five trainers and three stablehands connected to management company Aquanita Racing at Caulfield.

Birchley, Smerdon, Nelligan and five others were charged under an Australian racing rule dealing with dishonest, corrupt or fraudulent, improper or dishonourable action.

Stewards allege Birchley was a party to the administration on three occasions during the 2011, 2012 and 2015 Melbourne spring carnival.
more at
https://www.sportsnews.com.au/horse-racing/aquanita-racing-inquiry-gets-underway/430860
 
CERA seems to be the in thing in South America, after those Colombian busts too, and Giovanny Báez before that. It really highlights how far behind the testing is a lot of the time down there, as CERA became more or less useless as soon as it was testable, because of its extremely long half-life compared to first-gen EPO or second-gen (darbopoietin). Apart from the di Luca positives in 2009 - which because of their inconsistency with only some tests positive and others not suggested this was to do with blood doping and probably not getting the timings right so some CERA was still present in the blood in the bags - and maybe the Liberty Seguros triple positive at the 2009 Volta, there's almost a complete halt on CERA use in Europe at that point. AFLD keeping the CERA test secret was one of the biggest coups in anti-doping.
 
Dec 28, 2010
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Re:

Escarabajo said:
Najar positive with CERA!!
What took them so long to find out? we knew it in the same day when he won the stage! :cool:

This is one of the most obvious positives out there along with the Tour of Turkey, Mustafa Sayar.
It's almost Gabrovski levels of obviousness :D
 
Jun 27, 2013
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Re:

Dekker_Tifosi said:
Gigs_98 said:
Najar is positive for CERA? I've never been less shocked about a doping case :lol:
I for one am SHOCKED. I'm sure he won because he knew the local roads so well. :(
Technical ability was extremely important on that dead straight mountain highway. Obviously the drugs were just a small factor
 
Dec 28, 2010
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pastronef said:
Libertine Seguros said:
Gigs_98 said:
Najar is positive for CERA? I've never been less shocked about a doping case :lol:
To add to the Törku riders mentioned above, I'd like to also add this fellow:

I had to check procyclingstats to know who he is :confused:
The guinea pig for Kohl & Schumacher :D
 
Jun 27, 2013
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pastronef said:
Libertine Seguros said:
Gigs_98 said:
Najar is positive for CERA? I've never been less shocked about a doping case :lol:
To add to the Törku riders mentioned above, I'd like to also add this fellow:

I had to check procyclingstats to know who he is :confused:
Francesco de Bonis, for anyone wondering.

A while back when I went on a mental remembrance Tour through all the blatantly doped performances over the years, it's amazing how many Gerolsteiners I eventually came up with. Holczer was truly a champion of clean cycling.
 
Anybody who doesn't remember de Bonis, he's the guy that Gerolsteiner took off the road because they thought he was too obvious. He didn't turn pro until he was almost 26 and he was Rebellin's protégé, which is how he got the ride at Gerolsteiner. He achieved absolutely bupkiss until Romandie, when he won the stage to Zinal in hilarious style, being in the break that was caught, then launching another attack, being caught by Triki Beltrán, then when they were caught and Gadret went for the stage, de Bonis gave it a Volta a Portugal sprint to catch and pass the Frenchman despite having been in the break all day and started the final climb with only about 30 seconds advantage and ridden almost the whole thing solo.

He then didn't ride again all year, before moving with Rebellin to Savio's squad and quietly having his career erased for biopassport violations followed by a CERA positive.
 

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