Geraint Thomas, the next british hope

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Interesting comments from Brian Holme who said Rod Ellingworth told him when Cavendish was riding for T-Mobile which would have been 2007/8 I guess, that Thomas would win Tour de France one day. Interesting that this was known long before Team Sky existing, suggesting at least BC knowing Thomas had the numbers as a u23 accademy rider I thought.

You could compile a list of all the riders that were ever touted as future Tour winners, read it and laugh your pants off.

Yes, but how many were track cyclist at the time in that list?

This guy off the top of my head.

Anyway, Thomas wasn't a "track cyclist" per se. He did both. He was racing plenty on the road. Full seasons, including GTs. And none of this changes the fact that you're reading waaaay too much into what might have been a one-off comment by a fellow British rider and which probably didn't go beyond "this guy got class and I'm too British to think of other venues than the Tour de France for class to shine properly".

You actually believe this comment was made?

This isn't like with Kennaugh or any of the other 100 nobodies that were touted to win the Tour de France based on nothing where there is actually an article or clip from the time of some idiot saying the rider would win the tdf (though of course said person could have made that comment about a hundred other riders- spray and pray)

This is an alleged comment no one has ever mentioned for 10 years that just happens to be coincidentally brought up by an attention seeker the same weekend Thomas is about to win the Tour.

 

[samhocking]

Holme said it in yesterdays cycling podcast who went around various teams and riders asking about what they thought about Thomas about to win Tour. Why would Holme make it up he knew he might win and say Ellingworth told him he could in 2007? Holme didn't say he can't believe it, he said he did believe it and others did too. The general consensus was it was only a matter of time for Thomas.

 

[brownbobby]

So now that Thomas might ridiculously win the tour de France, some guy who likes Thomas (no motivation to lie right?) claims that some other guy at some unclear point of time said that Thomas would win the Tour de France one day.


The arguments for Sky are so weak its amazing. On the one hand reject as "no evidence" the idea that doping exists in cycling. On the other hand accept as gospel absolutely unverifiable heresay from dodgy sources like the above, as long as it backs the desired viewpoint.


I had a dream that Nostradamus said that a Welsh a Kenyan and a Brit would won day truimph in France. When can I get on ITV to retell this important story proving that Sky are clean?

some folks have an amazing capacity of looking at any sky-related things in two angles: sceptical and toxicly sceptical.

Cycling/ Sport. Not "Sky". And its a real sleight of hand to paint - those believing that TDF winners dope (after the sceptics were proved right time and time again) as "toxicly sceptical".

why should the tour be won by a rider with a perfect perfomance trajectory and credible development?

I never said it should.

why do gt winners have to be clean?

never said they should.

where does such an immense commitment to cleanliness transparency come from?

Well in Sky's case its probably their claims that they are the most transparent team in history that brings the mockery towards their lack of transparency.

why not just to reconcile with thomas winning the tour

Who said I wasn't reconciled?

Just because i point out flaws in fantastically weak arguments, doesn't mean any of the assumptions you made above are true.

Do you not agree that the argument of "some guy just said that at some point in the past this other guy told him Thomas would win the Tour" is weak? Its not even worth posting. I could say that some guy told me 10 years ago that Thomas would dope.

But you're not Rod Ellingworth....you can question his integrity as much as you like, but you cannot dismiss him as 'just some guy'.

 

[The Hitch]

Re:

Holme said it in yesterdays cycling podcast which who went around various teams and riders asking about what they thought about Thomas about to win Tour. Why would Holme make it up he knew he might win, because Ellingworth told him he could in 2007? Holme didn;t say he can't believe it, he said he did believe it,

Do you mean Brian Holm? Caught cheat and liar from the 90's and career omertarist?

Thats who you look to for truth?

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

So you're now arguing Thomas did have potential to win, or just the potential because he did race road?

What? No, I'm not arguing that. I'm arguing Thomas looked like a class rider, but that doesn't mean he had potential for the GC of GTs.

The point of what Holme has said, is not what was said, but that it was said in 2007 and that rider is achieving that a decade later. If you're now arguing Thomas in his first year at Barloworld in 2007 would be in a list of riders touted as the next Tour winner, i'm not sure many would believe it, regardless of him doping or using doping to justify why they placed him in that list. In 2007 we now know everyone was doping more or less so in that context it's suggesting rider transformation was at least within BC and Ellingworth's understanding, possible for Thomas, otherwise Ellingworth wouldn't have been trying to get Thomas into T-Mobile via Holme saying he could win Tour.

People say stuff like that all the time, but especially when trying to get a team to sign some rider.

You actually believe this comment was made?

This isn't like with Kennaugh or any of the other 100 nobodies that were touted to win the Tour de France based on nothing where there is actually an article or clip from the time of some idiot saying the rider would win the tdf (though of course said person could have made that comment about a hundred other riders- spray and pray)

This is an alleged comment no one has ever mentioned for 10 years that just happens to be coincidentally brought up by an attention seeker the same weekend Thomas is about to win the Tour.

I have no particular reason not to believe some British guy once looked at Thomas and said "this guy is good, he'll win the Tour", because people say stuff like that all the time, particularly about their countrymen. But that's not the point. It is 100% immaterial whether anyone ever said that. It doesn't change anything. It is spectacularly irrelevant, and therefore I'm not wasting my time disputing that point. Happy to concede because it doesn't matter: all the alleged early promise in the world wouldn't suddenly validate any wins achieved 10 years later with nothing in between, because what those intervening years scream is not "Finally! He's a champion alright!" but "We sure overestimated his potential back when he was a youngster, and now this is coming out of nowhere". Well, not nowhere, because Thomas had already started his digievolution a couple of years ago, but it was unbelievable back then at 29 and it is even more so now that he's taken at least another two steps forward at 32 (hello Riis).

 

[samhocking]

Do you need to be clean to relay on what someone told in you in 2007 in 2018 then for it to be true?

 

[The Hitch]

So now that Thomas might ridiculously win the tour de France, some guy who likes Thomas (no motivation to lie right?) claims that some other guy at some unclear point of time said that Thomas would win the Tour de France one day.


The arguments for Sky are so weak its amazing. On the one hand reject as "no evidence" the idea that doping exists in cycling. On the other hand accept as gospel absolutely unverifiable heresay from dodgy sources like the above, as long as it backs the desired viewpoint.


I had a dream that Nostradamus said that a Welsh a Kenyan and a Brit would won day truimph in France. When can I get on ITV to retell this important story proving that Sky are clean?

some folks have an amazing capacity of looking at any sky-related things in two angles: sceptical and toxicly sceptical.

Cycling/ Sport. Not "Sky". And its a real sleight of hand to paint - those believing that TDF winners dope (after the sceptics were proved right time and time again) as "toxicly sceptical".

why should the tour be won by a rider with a perfect perfomance trajectory and credible development?

I never said it should.

why do gt winners have to be clean?

never said they should.

where does such an immense commitment to cleanliness transparency come from?

Well in Sky's case its probably their claims that they are the most transparent team in history that brings the mockery towards their lack of transparency.

why not just to reconcile with thomas winning the tour

Who said I wasn't reconciled?

Just because i point out flaws in fantastically weak arguments, doesn't mean any of the assumptions you made above are true.

Do you not agree that the argument of "some guy just said that at some point in the past this other guy told him Thomas would win the Tour" is weak? Its not even worth posting. I could say that some guy told me 10 years ago that Thomas would dope.

But you're not Rod Ellingworth....you can question his integrity as much as you like, but you cannot dismiss him as 'just some guy'.

A failed professional cyclist and nowaday behind the scenes coach- one of many. He pretty much is just some guy. I doubt too many people outside of bikeradar know who he is, few of you even would recognize him on the street or probably name his equivalent on any other team.

 

[samhocking]

Ellingworth formed and ran U23 Academy Thomas came though. Cavendish came through, Stannard came through etc etc.

You may see him as a nobody, but he's been as influential as Brailsford for getting British riders into World Tour.
He showed his class the other day where he walked down the finish line after Thomas won his MTF to wait for Cavendish to finish last, because he recognised it was a big moment for Cavendish. Cavendish's own coach wasn't there cheering him, but Ellingworrth was cheering him because he knew Cavendish wouldn't give up because he told him never to give up and honour the race when he coached him as a U23 rider and wanted to experience the moment with Cavendish.

 

[brownbobby]

So now that Thomas might ridiculously win the tour de France, some guy who likes Thomas (no motivation to lie right?) claims that some other guy at some unclear point of time said that Thomas would win the Tour de France one day.


The arguments for Sky are so weak its amazing. On the one hand reject as "no evidence" the idea that doping exists in cycling. On the other hand accept as gospel absolutely unverifiable heresay from dodgy sources like the above, as long as it backs the desired viewpoint.


I had a dream that Nostradamus said that a Welsh a Kenyan and a Brit would won day truimph in France. When can I get on ITV to retell this important story proving that Sky are clean?

some folks have an amazing capacity of looking at any sky-related things in two angles: sceptical and toxicly sceptical.

Cycling/ Sport. Not "Sky". And its a real sleight of hand to paint - those believing that TDF winners dope (after the sceptics were proved right time and time again) as "toxicly sceptical".

why should the tour be won by a rider with a perfect perfomance trajectory and credible development?

I never said it should.

why do gt winners have to be clean?

never said they should.

where does such an immense commitment to cleanliness transparency come from?

Well in Sky's case its probably their claims that they are the most transparent team in history that brings the mockery towards their lack of transparency.

why not just to reconcile with thomas winning the tour

Who said I wasn't reconciled?

Just because i point out flaws in fantastically weak arguments, doesn't mean any of the assumptions you made above are true.

Do you not agree that the argument of "some guy just said that at some point in the past this other guy told him Thomas would win the Tour" is weak? Its not even worth posting. I could say that some guy told me 10 years ago that Thomas would dope.

But you're not Rod Ellingworth....you can question his integrity as much as you like, but you cannot dismiss him as 'just some guy'.

A failed professional cyclist and nowaday behind the scenes coach- one of many. He pretty much is just some guy. I doubt too many people outside of bikeradar know who he is, few of you even would recognize him on the street or probably name his equivalent on any other team.

When it comes to inside knowledge of British Cycling over the past decade Rod Ellingworth is far from 'just some guy'......only someone with a deep personal bias would try to argue such. Being recognised on the street is not a measure of relevance.

 

[Mamil]

Re:

Interesting comments from Brian Holme who said Rod Ellingworth told him when Cavendish was riding for T-Mobile which would have been 2007/8 I guess, that Thomas would win Tour de France one day. Interesting that this was known long before Team Sky existing, suggesting at least BC knowing Thomas had the numbers as a u23 accademy rider I thought.

I completely fail to see the worth of this throw-away comment, allegedly made a decade ago but which no-one seems to have even tried to act upon until last year. Words are meaningless unless anyone believes enough to actually act on them.

It's not complicated really. Thomas is just the latest mediocre British road racer with a half-decent engine and track pedigree to have now been given the A-grade prep by Sky. A little luck, a tiring Froome, and Bob's your uncle. Once Froome and Thomas have moved on, they'll pluck someone else out for the same special treatment and carry on. Hopefully it's Bernal, so at least it's a rider with genuine natural climbing talent.

 

[Angliru]

During the height of the jiffy bag drama, Brailsford occasionally referenced the fans on social media that were less than complimentary about him, British Cycling and Team Sky. This of course before he went dark to avoid the media all together only to rise again when things at the Giro turned in a positive way for Sky, feeling empowered again enough to face the media swarm.

 

[OldCranky]

The funniest thing about this supposed endorsement of GT's err... GT provenance from 2007 is that if it was actually said, it wouldn't have been the most ridiculous possible prediction about a potential GT winner from the ranks of that 2007 Barloworld team...

 

[The Hitch]

[quote="
some folks have an amazing capacity of looking at any sky-related things in two angles: sceptical and toxicly sceptical.

Cycling/ Sport. Not "Sky". And its a real sleight of hand to paint - those believing that TDF winners dope (after the sceptics were proved right time and time again) as "toxicly sceptical".

why should the tour be won by a rider with a perfect perfomance trajectory and credible development?

I never said it should.

why do gt winners have to be clean?

never said they should.

where does such an immense commitment to cleanliness transparency come from?

Well in Sky's case its probably their claims that they are the most transparent team in history that brings the mockery towards their lack of transparency.

why not just to reconcile with thomas winning the tour

Who said I wasn't reconciled?

Just because i point out flaws in fantastically weak arguments, doesn't mean any of the assumptions you made above are true.

Do you not agree that the argument of "some guy just said that at some point in the past this other guy told him Thomas would win the Tour" is weak? Its not even worth posting. I could say that some guy told me 10 years ago that Thomas would dope.

But you're not Rod Ellingworth....you can question his integrity as much as you like, but you cannot dismiss him as 'just some guy'.

A failed professional cyclist and nowaday behind the scenes coach- one of many. He pretty much is just some guy. I doubt too many people outside of bikeradar know who he is, few of you even would recognize him on the street or probably name his equivalent on any other team.

When it comes to inside knowledge of British Cycling over the past decade Rod Ellingworth is far from 'just some guy'......only someone with a deep personal bias would try to argue such. Being recognised on the street is not a measure of relevance.

Personal bias against Ellingworth? Now that I think about it i realise i know nothing about him.

Ive come accross his name a few times, and in all case it was someone else telling a mostly useless anecdote about him. Brailsford about him being one of the witnesses who saw Froome in "sandshoes". Walsh about him pulling out Virenque pictures. This latest one about him saying Thomas would win the Tour.

That's it. I know nothing about the guy.

I'm just pointing out he's not much. The fact that you had to stipulate "british cycling over the last decade" to make him seem somewhat relevant shows that. Its a minority sport. In Britain (one country with less than 1% of the worlds population) its an even smaller sport. He's probably not even one of the ten most important figures in that deeply narrowed down catergory and most people would struggle to name 2.

Most people know who Froome and Armstrong are. Some people know who Brunyeel and Brailsford are (but far less). by the time you go down ten rings to the likes of Ellingworth you are dealing with people that even most cycling fans don't know exist.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Some great comments here:

During the height of the jiffy bag drama, Brailsford occasionally referenced the fans on social media that were less than complimentary about him, British Cycling and Team Sky. This of course before he went dark to avoid the media all together only to rise again when things at the Giro turned in a positive way for Sky, feeling empowered again enough to face the media swarm.

The funniest thing about this supposed endorsement of GT's err... GT provenance from 2007 is that if it was actually said, it wouldn't have been the most ridiculous possible prediction about a potential GT winner from the ranks of that 2007 Barloworld team...

Interesting comments from Brian Holme who said Rod Ellingworth told him when Cavendish was riding for T-Mobile which would have been 2007/8 I guess, that Thomas would win Tour de France one day. Interesting that this was known long before Team Sky existing, suggesting at least BC knowing Thomas had the numbers as a u23 accademy rider I thought.

I completely fail to see the worth of this throw-away comment, allegedly made a decade ago but which no-one seems to have even tried to act upon until last year. Words are meaningless unless anyone believes enough to actually act on them.

It's not complicated really. Thomas is just the latest mediocre British road racer with a half-decent engine and track pedigree to have now been given the A-grade prep by Sky. A little luck, a tiring Froome, and Bob's your uncle. Once Froome and Thomas have moved on, they'll pluck someone else out for the same special treatment and carry on. Hopefully it's Bernal, so at least it's a rider with genuine natural climbing talent.

 

[Saint Unix]

Didn't Chris Comical say to a young Wonderboy that he would win the Tour one day?

 

[Bolder]

Re: Re:

This is nothing more, nothing less than an Internet message board. The UCI, WADA, British Cycling and above all Dave Brailsford don't give a toss what goes on in here. It's purely banter and speculation. If you shut down the other side it's not even entertaining anymore.

I read this dozens of times from the old Lance fans and from martinvickers and his future sockpuppets here

The counter argument is the same as always.

1 No one here has ever claimed that these people care what we post. In fact we don't like the Brunyeels and Brailsfords of this world so impressing them is not the motivation for posting.

2 These people also don't care what YOU post.

Which probably grates you more. Because for us we don't want to impress Brailsford or Brunyeel.

But you hold them in high regard. You would probably be shakinf with anxiety if you ever found yourself in a room with Dave Brailsford in a room. That almost certainly none of your contributions will ever be aknowledged by him must hurt you more than it does us. Probably why you guys try to use this argument so often.

Its always hillarious to see the FANS of athletes mock the sceptics as fat, loser keyboard warriors etc. But what are you? You are just a fan too. Sorry to break it to you but being a diehard fan of Chris froome does not make you Chris Froome.

If we are losers, you are a loser just like us.

Only worse because we live our own lives. The only happines you guys ever have is when some guy you never meet wins an event you see on tv.

It's the barely literate ad hominem attacks like this one that destroy the credibility of posters such as yourself. When something is posted that you don't like, it's like Donald Trump fat-fingering Twitter at 5 a.m. after binge-watching Fox & Friends. Seriously, that's the best you got? That I wish I was Chris Froome?

For the record, I wish I was Romain Bardet, but he seems to have gone missing lately.

Not that you wish you were Chris Froome but that you mistake his successes for your own.

Its always hillarious to see the diehard fans use the "you are just jealous of my favourite athlete", or "my favourite athlete is more famous than you" insult attempt.

As if you were the one winning the TDF and getting booed. You are not. Sorry to remind you of that.

I'm sorry, I wasn't aware...sitting on my couch I can ALMOST feel the booing as I grind up the Tourmalet. Teh fanz, they are grabbing at me...but I do look good in yellow, don't I?

I am not and never have been a Sky/Froome fan any more than you are -- you are welcome to use some of your copious free time to parse my 400-odd posts; no doubt you'll find a nugget of indecision that proves I'm Brailsford's sock puppet. I would have been much happier had Froome not entered the TdF and even better, if Sky had been implicated in team-wide doping thus preventing Thomas from starting too... (to keep this thread marginally on topic)

 

[Rollthedice]

It's coming. The biggest shock in cycling after Froome and Wiggo. Geraint Thomas TdF winner.

His GT placements until now, he is 32:

140
118
67
31
80
140
22
15
69
15
DNF
DNF

 

[yaco]

I love how one can post some ill-conceived opinions about Rod Ellingworth with such limited knowledge - The worst thing is some support this post.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

It's coming. The biggest shock in cycling after Froome and Wiggo. Geraint Thomas TdF winner.

His GT placements until now, he is 32:

140
118
67
31
80
140
22
15
69
15
DNF
DNF

To add to the hilarity, cycling powerhouses Belgium, France and The Netherlands have produced two GT wins between them in the last 30 years, and it's not due to a lack of talent. UK (and Team Sky) have just crapped out their eighth win in just six years, spread across three riders who all showed no GT potential until their mid-20's.

Because cleans. Obviously.

Oh, one more thing. We never actually saw Thomas show the extent of his powers this year. He built up a buffer by avoiding crashes in the first week and sneaking bonus seconds, and then just sucked wheel in the mountains, but he clearly had way more left in the tank based on how he covered or rode back every attack with ease and shattered the others in the sprints. Tomorrow's TT might show us how nuclear he truly is, but it feels like he won this Tour without having to get out of second gear.

 

[Escarabajo]

Frankenstein is complete!

 

[hrotha]

Re: Re:

three riders who all showed no GT potential until their mid-20's.

One rider who showed no GT potential until his mid-20s, two who didn't do that until they were 29.

In some ways Froome is the most unbelievable of the three because Wiggins and Thomas both had shown they had class from a young age (just for completely different applications). However, at least Froome was still semi-young when he transformed, and he didn't actually change the basic type of rider he was, so in that regard he's the most believable of the three. But then he's the one who'll go down in history with an amazing GT record if nothing changes, and that again makes him the most unbelievable of the three. But on the other ha– ARRRGH I CAN'T KEEP GOING.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re: Re:

One rider who showed no GT potential until his mid-20s, two who didn't do that until they were 29.

In some ways Froome is the most unbelievable of the three because Wiggins and Thomas both had shown they had class from a young age (just for completely different applications). However, at least Froome was still semi-young when he transformed, and he didn't actually change the basic type of rider he was, so in that regard he's the most believable of the three. But then he's the one who'll go down in history with an amazing GT record if nothing changes, and that again makes him the most unbelievable of the three. But on the other ha– ARRRGH I CAN'T KEEP GOING.

None of it makes any sense. Best to just smile and nod and pretend like everything is fine.

 

[roundabout]

Sometimes it's a shame that I don't gamble, because it was almost foreseeable

viewtopic.php?p=1257358#p1257358

 

[Rollthedice]

Re: Re:

It's coming. The biggest shock in cycling after Froome and Wiggo. Geraint Thomas TdF winner.

His GT placements until now, he is 32:

140
118
67
31
80
140
22
15
69
15
DNF
DNF

To add to the hilarity, cycling powerhouses Belgium, France and The Netherlands have produced two GT wins between them in the last 30 years, and it's not due to a lack of talent. UK (and Team Sky) have just crapped out their eighth win in just six years, spread across three riders who all showed no GT potential until their mid-20's.

Because cleans. Obviously.

Oh, one more thing. We never actually saw Thomas show the extent of his powers this year. He built up a buffer by avoiding crashes in the first week and sneaking bonus seconds, and then just sucked wheel in the mountains, but he clearly had way more left in the tank based on how he covered or rode back every attack with ease and shattered the others in the sprints. Tomorrow's TT might show us how nuclear he truly is, but it feels like he won this Tour without having to get out of second gear.

Agree that he had more in the tank if needed but don't get fooled, he casually did 6+ W/kg for extensive amounts of time. The way he put the hammer down on La Rosiere was from the Movement For Incredible Cycling.

Another thing, he also won the Dauphine and it really says a lot. In the last decades after Indurain once and Lance twice, only Sky marginal gains strategy made it possible for a rider to win both Dauphine and Tour, a loooong peak, no problemo. Wiggins, Froome and now Thomas did it.

 

[Saint Unix]

Re:

"To add to the hilarity, cycling powerhouses Belgium, France and The Netherlands have produced two GT wins between them in the last 30 years"

... perhaps this shows that those "cycling powerhouses" are not "all that".

On other matters, I see that the clinic's most supercilious blow hard is on form. Ignorance is strength apparently.

That can't be it, because they've scraped together hundreds of wins between them in other types of WorldTour races in that 30 year period. It shows there's a depth of talent in all three countries. At least a pool of talent with more depth and diversity than the UK track scene, that just suddenly produced two GT winners in no time at all after decades and decades of sweet nothing in that respect.

And then there's the historical evidence of countries that host big international sporting competitions going above and beyond to ensure victory for their athletes at any cost. We know how Russia did well in Sochi, and there's a lot of evidence against the Chinese doing exactly the same in Beijing. It doesn't take a genius to look at the massive increase in British performance at the Olympics since London was selected as host city for the 2012 games and then put two and two together.

A lot of that success has come from the track too, where Great Britain have taken 22 out of their total of 32 gold medals in just the three Games held since London was selected in 2005. Since the GB track team and Team Sky are practically sister teams it's easy to draw conclusions on how they've achieved their success on the road, considering they're using those very same individuals (athletes, coaches and managers) that suddenly popped out of the woodwork just in time to be the pride of the nation on their home turf.