Giro d'Italia 2017 rumours - Il Centesimo

[Gigs_98]

Re:

Funny how there are basically no western alps next year. Apart from Oropa. No Fauniera or Finestre, or Aosta.

Problem is that Finestre has been used only 2 years ago, the streets of Fauniera and Sampeyre are probably in a very bad condition, I think Cervinia is the only place in Aosta which still wants to host Giro stages, since the last Aosta stage which didn't finish there is already a very long time ago, and to make the other climbs in the west interesting you have to go to France in most cases. It's really a pity, since I like the western Italian Alps much more.

Let's focus on the positive things, it means that the Mortirolo will be closer to the final.

Well, if they don't go over the Gavia and the Mortirolo is in the stage which finishes on the Stelvio, they will probably make a stage like in 2012. In that stage there was only some false flat between the Mortirolo and the Stelvio while the Mortirolo would be more far away from the finish if they would also go over the Gavia. Or didn't I understand the rumors correctly

 

[Eshnar]

Re: Re:

Well, if they don't go over the Gavia and the Mortirolo is in the stage which finishes on the Stelvio, they will probably make a stage like in 2012. In that stage there was only some false flat between the Mortirolo and the Stelvio while the Mortirolo would be more far away from the finish if they would also go over the Gavia. Or didn't I understand the rumors correctly

The rumours were Gavia - Mortirolo (-Aprica), not Mortirolo - Gavia.

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

agreed. Also, it's clear by now that Stelvio "beat" Aprica. That's the worst part of the news

Well I think it kind of makes sense. We've had Mortirolo-Aprica in 2015 and it would be lame to use the combination again only two years later, so they decide to use it again but with a completely different finish (basically the same thing they did in 2012 after Mortirolo-Aprica was already used in 2010). However ofc. from a racing perspective the stage would be better with an Aprica finish. Is there a chance that the stage to the Stelvio also goes over the Gavia? Mortirolo-Gavia-Stelvio still wouldn't really be satisfying since a Stelvio mtf is always lame, but it would at least be one hell of a stage.

Edit: And ofc I also agree that a Sulden mtf would be awesome and the stage would be a lot like stage 20 of my Race Design Challenge giro, which I would personally find cool too

They go over Mortirolo every other year. If they wanted to do something else than the classical Mortirolo-Aprica, they could have gone over Padrio after Mortirolo and descended down to Aprica.

 

[Eshnar]

Re: Re:

They go over Mortirolo every other year. If they wanted to do something else than the classical Mortirolo-Aprica, they could have gone over Padrio after Mortirolo and descended down to Aprica.

Well to be fair, they went over the proper Mortirolo (can we just please all forget about 2012) in 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010 and 2015 this century. That's not so much.

 

[staubsauger]

Wow. Gavia pass - Mortirolo - Stelvio Pass would've been epic savageness! Too bad it ain't worked out!

 

[Vesica]

Can somebody please explain to me what's lame about the Stelvio? (as a MTF?)

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

They go over Mortirolo every other year. If they wanted to do something else than the classical Mortirolo-Aprica, they could have gone over Padrio after Mortirolo and descended down to Aprica.

Well to be fair, they went over the proper Mortirolo (can we just please all forget about 2012) in 2004, 2006, 2008, 2010 and 2015 this century. That's not so much.

I don't think it's too much, it was a reply to " it would be lame to use the combination again only two years later", as it really wouldn't be something new for it to be used again two years after.

And if you include 2012, every other time they do the classical Mortirolo-Aprica, while they varied it in '04, '08 & '12, so it's not a surprise that they were going to mix it up again next year, though Padrio or Santa Cristina would be far better to vary it with.

 

[staubsauger]

Re:

Can somebody please explain to me what's lame about the Stelvio? (as a MTF?)

I guess there's simply too much flat between the Mortirolo and the Stelvio pass. So unless someone does an all-in AIDS attack like De Gendt did in 2012, there ain't no big action out of the favorites group. At least that's what happened in 2012 as well. And we just ain't in the 90's anymore where pals like Pantani & il diablo went on long-range attacks.

With the Gavia pass prior to the Mortirolo followed up by a mtf on the Stelvio pass there at least would've been good chances for big entertainment out of the breakaway group. With potentially a pure climber like Dombrowski producing a Michel Rasmussen be like mountain stage victory, going over all cols on his own.

Might still happen, but with only Mortirolo - Stelvio pass the breakaway is much easier to control. SO we like ain't gonna see no big battle. Just Astana controlling it for Aru to do his business as usual 3k to go attack. With the Gavia pass in like I said they'd either be forced to let a lone wolf in front go or drill it hard right from the start until the favorites slaughter each other right from the bottom of the Mortirolo!

 

[Eshnar]

Re:

Can somebody please explain to me what's lame about the Stelvio? (as a MTF?)

The same thing that's lame about any other hard MTF. It kills any real gc action before it. And in this specific case, it also comes after a long false flat (the only real chance would be the Gavia, but as I said it's out). Plus they will use again the easy side of the Stelvio, neglecting its best one since 2005.

 

[Netserk]

Yep, fair enough if they want a hard MTF, but why waste two great passes? Zonc or Montecampione are both great if you want an iconic and hard MTF.

 

[Nirvana]

Local newspapers have just confirmed stage 16 as Stelvio MTF. Apparently via Mortirolo, although they don't say which side. I would think it will be the one from Monno (the one with the Contador ramp). The following stage will start from Tirano.
The official reveal of the Grande Partenza will be on Sept.14th.

Mortirolo before Stelvio it's a non-sense, anyone will try nothing on Mortirolo knowing that there is Stelvio after
Mortirolo should be used with a realatively easy finale to encourage attack. If will be confirmed i hope for snow on the summit so they will be forced to cut the Stelvio and change the last part of the stage.

 

[Gigs_98]

It's better than what is rumored but still the idea to do Gavia-Mortirolo-Stelvio is incredibly stupid. You have 3 of the greatest passes in europe and use all of them from it's easiest side. Gavia from Bormio isn't even HC, There is a pretty hard way to use the mortirolo from Monno, but still not comparable to it's two hardest sides from the west and Stelvio from south is also much easier. IIrc someone in the Race Design Challenge made a stage with Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia, and then a descent finish in Bormio. That way you basically have all 3 climbs from their best side but unfortunately today every gt organizer seems to have an obsession with mtf's

 

[railxmig]

IIrc someone in the Race Design Challenge made a stage with Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia, and then a descent finish in Bormio. That way you basically have all 3 climbs from their best side but unfortunately today every gt organizer seems to have an obsession with mtf's

I'm a very strong advocate of Stelvio - Mortirolo - Gavia and if gavia is unusable then finish on Passo Tonale. Aprica finish with Padrio or Santa Christina is rather boring. It was a good novelty back in 2010-2011 but now i think it kind of weared off. Interesting that they didn't decided to try an MTF on Stelvio from it's harder side and on the next day do a homage to the amaizing 1994 stage via Mortirolo and Santa Christina. If i remember Santa Christina is in a quite good quality for Giro. Padrio may be too narrow (but there were no problems with Cazon de Lanza). Maybe the lap around Aprica is too small, idk.

I'm now actually scanning Velowire for Tour de France rumours. It seems there is some propability for finally a Serre Chevalier valley finish (Briançon is a bit too far from Galibier for my liking). It could be either Monêtier-les-Bains or La Salle-les-Alpes (max 27km from Galibier). Combined with Madeleine north it could be a fine sunday alpine stage before the first rest day. There are rumored PDBF of course (overuse allert), Belfort via Ballon d'Alsace, Peyragudes (overuse allert), Luz Ardinen for Pyrenees and an ITT in Dordogne (Lascaux) just before Paris.

 

[Brullnux]

It's better than what is rumored but still the idea to do Gavia-Mortirolo-Stelvio is incredibly stupid. You have 3 of the greatest passes in europe and use all of them from it's easiest side. Gavia from Bormio isn't even HC, There is a pretty hard way to use the mortirolo from Monno, but still not comparable to it's two hardest sides from the west and Stelvio from south is also much easier. IIrc someone in the Race Design Challenge made a stage with Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia, and then a descent finish in Bormio. That way you basically have all 3 climbs from their best side but unfortunately today every gt organizer seems to have an obsession with mtf's

If you do Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia then all (proper) attacks will probably be left until the last climb because that side if Gavia is so hard, so then you may as well have an MTF because the difference between it with a downhill finish in Bormio and as an MTF is minimal.

I'd rather have, though, an MTF on Stelvio on that side as it's easier and wouldn't completely prohibit attacks beforehand on the Mortirolo, than the other which counts as on of the hardest climbs in the world. As a pass then 100% the hard side, but as an MTF I'm not sure, because the easy side is still definitely hard enough to create large gaps, while allowing for a De Gendt attack.

 

[Brullnux]

IIrc someone in the Race Design Challenge made a stage with Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia, and then a descent finish in Bormio. That way you basically have all 3 climbs from their best side but unfortunately today every gt organizer seems to have an obsession with mtf's

I'm a very strong advocate of Stelvio - Mortirolo - Gavia and if gavia is unusable then finish on Passo Tonale. Aprica finish with Padrio or Santa Christina is rather boring. It was a good novelty back in 2010-2011 but now i think it kind of weared off. Interesting that they didn't decided to try an MTF on Stelvio from it's harder side and on the next day do a homage to the amaizing 1994 stage via Mortirolo and Santa Christina. If i remember Santa Christina is in a quite good quality for Giro. Padrio may be too narrow (but there were no problems with Cazon de Lanza). Maybe the lap around Aprica is too small, idk.

*profanity*

First rule of Giro d'Italia rumours thread: you only talk about Giro, not that other race.

Kidding of course. That though does remind me, do we have a Tour rumours thread yet? Might be time

 

[Gigs_98]

It's better than what is rumored but still the idea to do Gavia-Mortirolo-Stelvio is incredibly stupid. You have 3 of the greatest passes in europe and use all of them from it's easiest side. Gavia from Bormio isn't even HC, There is a pretty hard way to use the mortirolo from Monno, but still not comparable to it's two hardest sides from the west and Stelvio from south is also much easier. IIrc someone in the Race Design Challenge made a stage with Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia, and then a descent finish in Bormio. That way you basically have all 3 climbs from their best side but unfortunately today every gt organizer seems to have an obsession with mtf's

If you do Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia then all (proper) attacks will probably be left until the last climb because that side if Gavia is so hard, so then you may as well have an MTF because the difference between it with a downhill finish in Bormio and as an MTF is minimal.

I'd rather have, though, an MTF on Stelvio on that side as it's easier and wouldn't completely prohibit attacks beforehand on the Mortirolo, than the other which counts as on of the hardest climbs in the world. As a pass then 100% the hard side, but as an MTF I'm not sure, because the easy side is still definitely hard enough to create large gaps, while allowing for a De Gendt attack.

The easier side of the Stelvio is still harder than the hard side of the Gavia though. Moreover the eastern side of the Mortirolo also isn't very hard so I doubt anyone would attack there with the Stelvio still coming.

 

[Gigs_98]

Kidding of course. That though does remind me, do we have a Tour rumours thread yet? Might be time

Someone made a thread but it was ignored and all the rumors about the tdf route where posted in the thread which originally was only about the grand depart.

 

[Eshnar]

The easier side of the Stelvio is still harder than the hard side of the Gavia though. Moreover the eastern side of the Mortirolo also isn't very hard so I doubt anyone would attack there with the Stelvio still coming.

The standard eastern side isn't hard, but if they take the straight version that was rumoured in 2015 it is no joke, like 9 km at 11%.

 

[Gigs_98]

The easier side of the Stelvio is still harder than the hard side of the Gavia though. Moreover the eastern side of the Mortirolo also isn't very hard so I doubt anyone would attack there with the Stelvio still coming.

The standard eastern side isn't hard, but if they take the straight version that was rumoured in 2015 it is no joke, like 9 km at 11%.

It's hard but I don't think hard enough to encourage attacks. The climb from 2012 was clearly harder.

Edit: and generally in my original comment I only wrote that I find it strange that they wanted to use all three climbs from their easier side and the eastern mortirolo side is definitely still easier than the western side.

 

[Eshnar]

The easier side of the Stelvio is still harder than the hard side of the Gavia though. Moreover the eastern side of the Mortirolo also isn't very hard so I doubt anyone would attack there with the Stelvio still coming.

The standard eastern side isn't hard, but if they take the straight version that was rumoured in 2015 it is no joke, like 9 km at 11%.

It's hard but I don't think hard enough to encourage attacks. The climb from 2012 was clearly harder.

well, as for encouraging attacks, that one didn't work either

 

[Gigs_98]

The easier side of the Stelvio is still harder than the hard side of the Gavia though. Moreover the eastern side of the Mortirolo also isn't very hard so I doubt anyone would attack there with the Stelvio still coming.

The standard eastern side isn't hard, but if they take the straight version that was rumoured in 2015 it is no joke, like 9 km at 11%.

It's hard but I don't think hard enough to encourage attacks. The climb from 2012 was clearly harder.

well, as for encouraging attacks, that one didn't work either

De gendt?

 

[Brullnux]

It's better than what is rumored but still the idea to do Gavia-Mortirolo-Stelvio is incredibly stupid. You have 3 of the greatest passes in europe and use all of them from it's easiest side. Gavia from Bormio isn't even HC, There is a pretty hard way to use the mortirolo from Monno, but still not comparable to it's two hardest sides from the west and Stelvio from south is also much easier. IIrc someone in the Race Design Challenge made a stage with Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia, and then a descent finish in Bormio. That way you basically have all 3 climbs from their best side but unfortunately today every gt organizer seems to have an obsession with mtf's

If you do Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia then all (proper) attacks will probably be left until the last climb because that side if Gavia is so hard, so then you may as well have an MTF because the difference between it with a downhill finish in Bormio and as an MTF is minimal.

I'd rather have, though, an MTF on Stelvio on that side as it's easier and wouldn't completely prohibit attacks beforehand on the Mortirolo, than the other which counts as on of the hardest climbs in the world. As a pass then 100% the hard side, but as an MTF I'm not sure, because the easy side is still definitely hard enough to create large gaps, while allowing for a De Gendt attack.

The easier side of the Stelvio is still harder than the hard side of the Gavia though. Moreover the eastern side of the Mortirolo also isn't very hard so I doubt anyone would attack there with the Stelvio still coming.

But not much harder. My point was I'd rather have an MTF on easy side of Stelvio than harder side, and that MTF/Downhill finish won't make too much difference in this case.

The 'easy' side of the Mortirolo is ridiculously underrated though:

12.9km vs 12.1km, average percentage of 10.3% vs 10.8%, maximum of 18.8% vs 18%. The numbers are very similar. And this side is more irregular too which is a bonus. This will be the one they use, I imagine. It's the same as 2012.

Cyclingcols actually rates this side harder than the other, 1485 vs 1451. Debatable sure, but it is an absolute beast of a climb nonetheless.

 

[Eshnar]

De gendt?

didn't he attack on the descent?

 

[Eshnar]

Brullnux, that's the Tovo side... the easier side is from Monno.

 

[Gigs_98]

It's better than what is rumored but still the idea to do Gavia-Mortirolo-Stelvio is incredibly stupid. You have 3 of the greatest passes in europe and use all of them from it's easiest side. Gavia from Bormio isn't even HC, There is a pretty hard way to use the mortirolo from Monno, but still not comparable to it's two hardest sides from the west and Stelvio from south is also much easier. IIrc someone in the Race Design Challenge made a stage with Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia, and then a descent finish in Bormio. That way you basically have all 3 climbs from their best side but unfortunately today every gt organizer seems to have an obsession with mtf's

If you do Stelvio-Mortirolo-Gavia then all (proper) attacks will probably be left until the last climb because that side if Gavia is so hard, so then you may as well have an MTF because the difference between it with a downhill finish in Bormio and as an MTF is minimal.

I'd rather have, though, an MTF on Stelvio on that side as it's easier and wouldn't completely prohibit attacks beforehand on the Mortirolo, than the other which counts as on of the hardest climbs in the world. As a pass then 100% the hard side, but as an MTF I'm not sure, because the easy side is still definitely hard enough to create large gaps, while allowing for a De Gendt attack.

The easier side of the Stelvio is still harder than the hard side of the Gavia though. Moreover the eastern side of the Mortirolo also isn't very hard so I doubt anyone would attack there with the Stelvio still coming.

But not much harder. My point was I'd rather have an MTF on easy side of Stelvio than harder side, and that MTF/Downhill finish won't make too much difference in this case.

The 'easy' side of the Mortirolo is ridiculously underrated though:

12.9km vs 12.1km, average percentage of 10.3% vs 10.8%, maximum of 18.8% vs 18%. The numbers are very similar. And this side is more irregular too which is a bonus. This will be the one they use, I imagine. It's the same as 2012.

Cyclingcols actually rates this side harder than the other, 1485 vs 1451. Debatable sure, but it is an absolute beast of a climb nonetheless.

But that climb is another western side