Giro d'Italia Giro d'Italia 2024 Stage 2: San Francesco al Campo – Santuario di Oropa (Biella), 161.0 km

[Libertine Seguros]

There was no 'normal' road and GT career path from Cardiff to a Tour de France podium when Thomas was growing up or Wiggins from London, nothing existed like in France, Italy or Spain in terms of a career path to it really until Sky. ANC Halfords really didn't count for much and not all riders want to do a Simpson, Kelly or Millar and basically become another nationality to have a road career internationally in GTs
The point is, physiology uphill or in a GT is really no different than endurance track pursuit physiology and history proves it. Of course you will have to transform if you only had track racing to pay the bills racing Olympic track, there's no choice other than to transform to go and race road!

What are you talking about, Ganna has done way more in the mountains than Thomas before 2015.

Well, ACTUALLY, Red Rick, Thomas was good at the 4k pursuit just like Ganna, but Ganna doesn't have that British work ethic and morality to work hard (for 3-4 months a year) and discover how to climb at an elite level when already pushing 30.

You see, nationality is important to road cycling, but in track cycling, nationality has no bearing on success because every nation in the world puts the exact same amount of money into track cycling, so all the great GT winners came from Team Pursuit. Just look at Tadej Pogačar and Jonas Vingegaard's records in the team pursuit - they're absolutely peerless!

 

[samhocking]

Also there are more than 2 muscles in the human leg.

Makes no difference to being fast at endurance cycling, it's two main muslces used in the stroke down, you've either got muscles suited to doing that more powerfully than another rider be it on the track and uphill like your Wiggins, Thomas, Mercks, Coppi etc or you haven't. A crank on the track is basically identical to one used to go uphill and muscles are not gradient-sensitive and neither is ability to clear lactate or move oxygen to those muscles.

 

[samhocking]

Well, ACTUALLY, Red Rick, Thomas was good at the 4k pursuit just like Ganna, but Ganna doesn't have that British work ethic and morality to work hard (for 3-4 months a year) and discover how to climb at an elite level when already pushing 30.

Well, ACTUALLY, Red Rick, Thomas was good at the 4k pursuit just like Ganna, but Ganna doesn't have that British work ethic and morality to work hard (for 3-4 months a year) and discover how to climb at an elite level when already pushing 30.

You see, nationality is important to road cycling, but in track cycling, nationality has no bearing on success because every nation in the world puts the exact same amount of money into track cycling, so all the great GT winners came from Team Pursuit. Just look at Tadej Pogačar and Jonas Vingegaard's records in the team pursuit - they're absolutely peerless!

You see, nationality is important to road cycling, but in track cycling, nationality has no bearing on success because every nation in the world puts the exact same amount of money into track cycling, so all the great GT winners came from Team Pursuit. Just look at Tadej Pogačar and Jonas Vingegaard's records in the team pursuit - they're absolutely peerless!

The point is in UK when Thomas and Wiggins were progressing in cycling there was no Road to winning a GT, it just wasn't on anyone's radar. There were no GT winning UK teams, there were not even teams at all from the UK really at the top level so nobody believed anyone from UK could ever win a Grand Tour until Sky really.

The point about Nationality being important is one of opportunity. On the Track, because it's an Olympic Sport, there was a pathway riders could take in UK, could make money even, could be discovered as pure endurance specialists. To find the same on road in the 90's 00's, there wasn't a path, you would have to literally move to a different Country and transform yourself into a foreign team in your early years like say Millar, there were maybe 2 or 3 riders from UK at all! Do you think Anquetil had to become Australian to be successful? of course not, there was a local French system, a pathway to getting from his bedroom dreaming of winning a Tour, to then winning a Tour de France and evidence it was possible. But the overall point is he was a damn good Track Pursuiter too, Physiology doesn't allow fakes at that level.

 

[Lequack]

G interview

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gBxFGgtIJJg

 

[titan31]

You could basically argue UAE or Jumbo are often employing exactly the same mountain train as Sky. Teams race like them or even Postal in GTs because it works. Yes, Pogacar can attack earlier or even attack at will because he's by far the strongest individual rider, a train isn't the only way to win a mountain finish, but UAE still essentially created a Sky train today that lasts long-enough and hard enough to begin dropping second level GC riders weakens podium level and then launch Pogacar. This is exactly how Sky and Jumbo do it too when they have the strongest rider in the race.

Reading your comments, you rants generally seem to focus on team or rider nationality. I mean are you complaining Quintana has never faced the wind in his entire career as a wheel sucker and even more boring than Thomas? Maybe you have, but your posts seem more about nationality bias or some mythical style of racing that you think would be more entertaining when in reality it would be less effective so will never be realised.

Id disagree on UAE being a train today. Pogacar basically only had Majka who really broke it up a bit. Ineos/Sky, US Postal, Jumbo (more with Roglic than Vingegaard) would set a really strong tempo and you'd go the peleton 5k from the finish and it's be 15 guys with 5 of them being from the same team.

 

[Netserk]

The point is, physiology uphill or in a GT is really no different than endurance track pursuit physiology

So Ganna is totally the next Italian Giro winner?

 

[SafeBet]

Tiberi had a mechanical/puncture at the start of the climb, Giada Borgato reported it live from one of the Rai motos.

Not one but two.
He first punctured a few hundred meters after Pogacar. Then had a mechanical on his spare bike and had to change bikes again.
He never bridged back and probably exploded because he went too deep at the beginning of the hard part. Let's see how he fares in the TT and Prati di Tivo. Things like this happen to any GC rider, growing pains.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

The point is in UK when Thomas and Wiggins were progressing in cycling there was no Road to winning a GT, it just wasn't' on anyone's radar. There were no GT winning teams, there were not even GT teams at all from the UK really, nobody believed anyone from UK could ever win a Grand Tour until Sky really.

The point about Nationality being important is one of opportunity. On the Track, because it's an Olympic Sport, there was a pathway riders could take in UK, could make money even. To do the same on road in the 90's 00's, there wasn't one, you would have to literally move to a different Country and transform yourself into a foreign team in your early years like say Millar. Do you think Anquetil had to become Australian to be successful? of course not, there was a French system, a pathway to getting from his bedroom dreaming of winning a Tour, to then winning a Tour de France, but the point is he was a damn good Track Pursuiter too, Physiology doesn't allow fakes at that level.

Thomas was on a ProTour team as a stagiare at 19.

And then on one of the strongest ProConti teams at 20. He did Grand Tours at 20 (the Tour) and 21 (the Giro). He was on Barloworld, not like Rapha-Condor or Plowman Craven. He had some pretty strong climbers to learn from there, like Félix Cardenas, Alex Efimkin or even Juan Mauricio Soler.

When Team Sky was founded, he was 23. He was one of the most hyped young riders, but he wasn't one of the main names mooted as potential future GT winners (though more people named him than Froome, in fairness). The most hyped prospect at that time was Kennaugh, who also did the Team Pursuit, but actually had some results in the mountains, having been 3rd in the Girobio.

British cyclists did have limited pathways at the time, yes, but Barloworld wasn't a bad pathway in terms of opportunities by any stretch of the imagination. But he didn't have results like Kennaugh's to point to to suggest aptitude for the mountains until he'd already been riding on the road at an elite level, at a team ranking in the top 25 in the World for almost a continuous decade.

 

[Red Rick]

The point is in UK when Thomas and Wiggins were progressing in cycling there was no Road to winning a GT, it just wasn't' on anyone's radar. There were no GT winning teams, there were not even GT teams at all from the UK really, nobody believed anyone from UK could ever win a Grand Tour until Sky really.

The point about Nationality being important is one of opportunity. On the Track, because it's an Olympic Sport, there was a pathway riders could take in UK, could make money even. To do the same on road in the 90's 00's, there wasn't one, you would have to literally move to a different Country and transform yourself into a foreign team in your early years like say Millar. Do you think Anquetil had to become Australian to be successful? of course not, there was a French system, a pathway to getting from his bedroom dreaming of winning a Tour, to then winning a Tour de France, but the point is he was a damn good Track Pursuiter too, Physiology doesn't allow fakes at that level.

The Yates bro's came from track initially and showed promise in climbing races on the road from the get go

 

[tobydawq]

Well, ACTUALLY, Red Rick, Thomas was good at the 4k pursuit just like Ganna, but Ganna doesn't have that British work ethic and morality to work hard (for 3-4 months a year) and discover how to climb at an elite level when already pushing 30.

You see, nationality is important to road cycling, but in track cycling, nationality has no bearing on success because every nation in the world puts the exact same amount of money into track cycling, so all the great GT winners came from Team Pursuit. Just look at Tadej Pogačar and Jonas Vingegaard's records in the team pursuit - they're absolutely peerless!

Yes, going from the 4K to GC rider is much more farfetched than going from ski jumper to GC rider

 

[Libertine Seguros]

To be fair, though, this entire discussion has been:

Person A: "why do people dislike Thomas?"
Person B: "here are some reasons people dislike Thomas"
Person C: "actually I think you'll find everybody loves Thomas and disagrees with all of those reasons, why would you ever post that?"
Person B: "I was asked why people dislike Thomas?"
Person C: "What is dislike? What is the meaning of people? It's your responsibility, person B, to define these terms so that I can redefine them around the argument I want to make"

Me and AnotherArmchair, who originally asked the question, have long since laid the discussion to rest mutually and respectfully, but Sam is a dog with a bone.

 

[AmRacer]

dog with a bone

Is it same as a trolling troll? 🤣

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Is it same as a trolling troll? 🤣

He's got what he wants and he won't let go

 

[Brullnux]

Not one but two.
He first punctured a few hundred meters after Pogacar. Then had a mechanical on his spare bike and had to change bikes again.
He never bridged back and probably exploded because he went too deep at the beginning of the hard part. Let's see how he fares in the TT and Prati di Tivo. Things like this happen to any GC rider, growing pains.

To add to this, I think people find Oropa a difficult climb to pace. Even among the main GC group there was a lot of moving up and down throughout the final 5km, much more than a normal climb where a hierarchy emerges and then sticks.

 

[topcat]

Checking out of this race for a week. Can’t stand sprinting

The next week is so bad I'm going to Vancouver hiking and fishing.

 

[MartinGT]

To be fair, though, this entire discussion has been:

Person A: "why do people dislike Thomas?"
Person B: "here are some reasons people dislike Thomas"
Person C: "actually I think you'll find everybody loves Thomas and disagrees with all of those reasons, why would you ever post that?"
Person B: "I was asked why people dislike Thomas?"
Person C: "What is dislike? What is the meaning of people? It's your responsibility, person B, to define these terms so that I can redefine them around the argument I want to make"

Me and AnotherArmchair, who originally asked the question, have long since laid the discussion to rest mutually and respectfully, but Sam is a dog with a bone.

He's a Sky/Ineos Sychophant Troll. Best thing is don't reply. They can't see the wood for the trees.

I mean to go on about no path for road cycling and thinking BC had a superb track team since time forgot is mad too.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

He's a Sky/Ineos Sychophant Troll. Best thing is don't reply. They can't see the wood for the trees.

I mean to go on about no path for road cycling and thinking BC had a superb track team since time forgot is mad too.

Oh, I know. He's even brought out the "gradient doesn't matter" bait too, albeit subtly.

 

[kingjr]

To be fair, though, this entire discussion has been:

Person A: "why do people dislike Thomas?"
Person B: "here are some reasons people dislike Thomas"
Person C: "actually I think you'll find everybody loves Thomas and disagrees with all of those reasons, why would you ever post that?"
Person B: "I was asked why people dislike Thomas?"
Person C: "What is dislike? What is the meaning of people? It's your responsibility, person B, to define these terms so that I can redefine them around the argument I want to make"

Me and AnotherArmchair, who originally asked the question, have long since laid the discussion to rest mutually and respectfully, but Sam is a dog with a bone.

That's extremely rich coming from you. In fact, it's downright laughable.

 

[samhocking]

Oh, I know. He's even brought out the "gradient doesn't matter" bait too, albeit subtly.

You can link to the evidence that gradient affects rider physiology or even Induvial Pursuit champions like Moser, Coppi, Merck, Anquetil couldn't possibly have this dual physiology to win on Track and Mountains naturally? I mean Moser beat Fignon in 1984 Giro a few months after his Hour Record in Mexico and even 3rd placed Moreno Argentin came from Track Pursuit championships in his youth.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

You can link to the evidence that gradient affects rider physiology or even Induvial Pursuit champions like Moser, Coppi, Merck, Anquetil couldn't possibly have this dual physiology to win on Track and Mountains naturally? I mean Moser beat Fignon in 1984 Giro a few months after his Hour Record in Mexico and even 3rd placed Moreno Argentin came from Track Pursuit championships in his youth.

Ivan Sosa is a great climber, he should try the hour record.

 

[Extinction]

I mean Moser beat Fignon in 1984 Giro

But only with scandalous help from the Giro organization, which eliminated the Stelvio stage and a helicopter.

 

[samhocking]

Ivan Sosa is a great climber, he should try the hour record.

History shows the climbers that were also the best pursuiters, TT or hour record riders did not ever come in at 58kg, but I'd love him to give it a go haha!

 

[samhocking]

But only with scandalous help from the Giro organization, which eliminated the Stelvio stage and a helicopter.

Yeah there's never been such skulduggery in the history pro cycling ever before or after 1984 haha! Come on man the history of the sport is entirely about skulduggery, cheating, twisting advantage, disadvantaging others, designing a race that suits the rider of the moment etc etc. This Giro is ideally suited and openly known to have been designed to attract Pogacar to race it when his main goal is obviously Le Tour, this is the history of the Giro and part of it.
The point is, multiple Individual Pursuit specialists have won or podiumed in Grand Tours over the decades, nothing unique about Thomas or Wiggins doing it really.

 

[pastronef]

So basically no gauge used, just someone's opinion here but you generally seem to agree with them? Or are you saying Thomas is popular? It just seems if you're hoping Thomas would race in a supercharged Contador or Pantani style it would be the dumbest strategy for Ineos to use with Thomas. It would be the dumbest thing even for UAE to employ, we saw how Sky's tactics relatively easily overcame a Contador or Pantani approach to winning GTs and you can't possibly expect teams today to race in ways that would only ensure less success.
The focus on how Ineos race just seems a waste of energy to be looking at bike racing like that, the Festina days are over, racing isn't like that anymore. We saw today, it was one UAE train, one gentle attack - boom! race won, Contador would have attacked 136 times, got caught several times and then probably eventually been beaten by Froome anyway lol!

it's even before the racing style. I've argued with Libertine before because he says Thomas has no place in stage racing cause he was a track rider and somehow he usurped and went on to win the TDF and win stage races

 

[staubsauger]

Bardet must be sick. He's past his prime, but not this bad.