Giuseppe Martinelli: Contador already better than Armstrong (and Indurain)

[spalco]

I don't know about Indurain, but better than Armstrong yes. If Contador didn't have the Clinic issues, who could doubt he would be a huge favourite in any GT he enters for many years to come? And that's with focusing on more than just one race a year. I'm not seeing any challengers

 

[Angliru]

I'm thinking it's not doing Contador any favors by making such statements, which in my opinion are a bit over the top. Saying he'll top Merckx is really bordering on the ridiculous. Contador is the pre-eminent stage racer of his era and is potentially one of the best of all time.

In comparing him to Indurain, he isn't even beyond Indurain's accomplishments yet:
-The first to win 5 consecutive Tour de France's
-Won his 2 Giro the same year as his first 2 Tour's
-TT World Champion
-Olympic Champion

and Armstrong:
-7 Tours
-WC road race
-Fleche Wallone
-San Sebastian

I'm not even going to try to list Merckx's palmares.

Contador could surpass the quality of Indurain and Armstrong's records but let us give him a chance to do so. This is not to mention riders like Coppi and Hinault that Martinelli failed bring into this equation.

Personally I'm just going to enjoy what is left of Contador's career, hope he stays healthy and has the same luck in avoiding major injuries/crashes/setbacks that Armstrong had prior to his 2009 return to the sport and after his bout with cancer.

 

[janraaskalt]

I don't know about Indurain, but better than Armstrong yes. If Contador didn't have the Clinic issues, who could doubt he would be a huge favourite in any GT he enters for many years to come? And that's with focusing on more than just one race a year. I'm not seeing any challengers

That's not the point. If Contador would retire today, how would we look back at his carreer 10 years from now? Bigger than Armstrong's? No way, not even close.

 

[VeloCity]

Do cycling fans want to see another reign of a dominant individual (speaking strictly in terms of GTs)? Personally I found both the Indurain and Armstrong years as kind of boring in their processional, year-after-year repetition, and I'm a little concerned that it's going to be the same with Contador over the next few years. True, Contador seems a little more vulnerable than did Indurain or Armstrong - last year's TdF, for eg - and Andy S is not that far off Contador and still improving and there's Basso and Evans still and maybe Nibali and Sanchez and Gesink might continue to improve, but on the other hand Contador hasn't reached his peak yet, either.

I guess I just find GTs more interesting when there isn't a single dominant rider who's expected to win and it's no surprise when he does win.

 

[Angliru]

Don't say that. It was always exciting...
Those were great times.

Half of Germany preparing for the first mountainstage, barbecue and TV in garden or along the roads of TdF, all the Wurst and meat bruzzling on the grill, cold beer.....this year, Armstrong will bonk for sure....ah, ok....next year then.....grill cold again, all the meat lying there and half emptied, warm beers everywhere....silence....next try next year then.

But 2003 was a real party - while then getting maximum penalty in 2005 and party over before it started

It wasn't just Germany. I was hoping upon hope every year that Jan would get the better of him and yes, 2003 was a highlight that only cemented Jan onto my list of all time favorites.

 

[Sophistic]

In 1-2 months Conti will most likely lose a TDF and probably a Giro victory, so he will be left with: 2 TDF, 1 Giro and 1 Vuelta win, of which he dominated only one. He is nowhere close to Indurain and Armstrong NOW.

 

[Konfronto]

Contador should do the Giro-Tour double at least once before he will be worthy of polishing Indurain's bicycle.

Martinelli is full of crap as usual.

I noticed there is an opinion among commentators, that Martinelli is sort of a bad guy. Some guy called him a snake. What is the reason for thinking so? Why do you reckon he is full of crap?

P.S. I just do not him well, am I missing something?

 

[El Pistolero]

Well, Armstrong is 10 seasons ahead right now. Let's see in 10 years.

 

[Angliru]

If Contador wins this Giro, he's won 6 GTs in a row, over five years (with the fifth year still ongoing). And he's only done 7 GTs so far. Armstrong has won the Tour 7 times, but didn't he also ride the Vuelta at least once, supporting Heras? That would break his winning streak.

Add to that "several stage races" from Contador each year, as compared to Armstrong winning "only" one or two per year.

I have to say that yes, Contador is already better than Armstrong.

He never rode a grand tour in support of anyone as far as I know, especially not in 2009! He and Heras weren't on the same team until like 2003 I believe so he definitely wasn't riding in support of Heras in 1998. That was the Vuelta where Bruyneel decided that Armstrong could eventually win the Tour (he finished 4th at that Vuelta).

 

[Publicus]

I'm thinking it's not doing Contador any favors by making such statements, which in my opinion are a bit over the top. Saying he'll top Merckx is really bordering on the ridiculous. Contador is the pre-eminent stage racer of his era and is potentially one of the best of all time.

In comparing him to Indurain, he isn't even beyond Indurain's accomplishments yet:
-The first to win 5 consecutive Tour de France's
-Won his 2 Giro the same year as his first 2 Tour's
-TT World Champion
-Olympic Champion

and Armstrong:
-7 Tours
-WC road race
-Fleche Wallone
-San Sebastian

I'm not even going to try to list Merckx's palmares.

Contador could surpass the quality of Indurain and Armstrong's records but let us give him a chance to do so. This is not to mention riders like Coppi and Hinault that Martinelli failed bring into this equation.

Personally I'm just going to enjoy what is left of Contador's career, hope he stays healthy and has the same luck in avoiding major injuries/crashes/setbacks that Armstrong had prior to his 2009 return to the sport and after his bout with cancer.

+100. I want his story to be fully told before we start arguing his place in cycling history.

 

[SiAp1984]

Good joke of Martinelli. Leaving aside that both Indurain and Armstrong never risked to be stripped of 1 (or 2) GT titles, they dominated the Tour far more than AC (only one clear TdF-victory in 2009. 2007: gift by Bruyneel and Rabo; 2010: Schleck at least equal, if not better. AC suffered at Tourmalet, and I'm not even mentioning Chain Gate).

In addition, their opponents - at least in my memory - were (for whatever reason) stronger in average than ACs (Indurain: Guys like Berzin, Jalabert, Riis, Zülle, Rominger, Dufaux, etc. Lance: Ullrich, Puerto-Basso, Zülle, Escartin, young Vinokourov (much stronger than the nowadays edition), Pre-Crash-Beloki, Pantani, etc. AC: Well, A. Schleck. Oh, and Evans, in 2007 (should we count Ricco, who was faaar ahead of AC on the Giro-climbs 2008?).

AC has yet to accomplish a grand tour like Lance did in 2004 (six stagewins?).

OK, AC won all three GTs, that's a plus. But Lance (road) and Mig (ITT) both took World Championships. Olympic Medal-wise, they are better (Mig) or equal (Lance) to AC. Lance even enjoyed decent success in one-day-races in his pre-cancer-days, something AC is completely lacking.



This being said, AC is never going to equal Merckx. Not only because he is likely to be suspended for two years - but because the cannibal just took such an awful lot of victories in classics, (Grand)-tours etc., that he is too far ahead of everybody after him...

 

[Archibald]

If Contador wins this Giro, he's won 6 GTs in a row, over five years (with the fifth year still ongoing). And he's only done 7 GTs so far.

Conti's won every GT he's entered so far, so which is his 7th?

IF contador wins this Giro, it'll be 6GTs vs 7GTs vs 7GTs
The fact that both mig and contador have won other GTs than the Tour puts them ahead of LA, as does the other races they've won...
When it's 7GTs each, then he'll be ahead of both LA and Indurain through the sheer number of other stage races that he's won.

I think it's a matter of "very close, but not yet"

 

[VeloCity]

The remarkable thing about Contador is that there was no real GT buildup - Indurain and Armstrong rode several GT's before their winning streaks began but Contador finished his first TdF in 30th or so and has won every GT he's started since then.

Indurain - started 25(?) total, won 7 total, rode 15 GT's before first GT win
Armstrong - started 15 total, won 7 total, rode 5 GT's before first GT win
Contador (so far) - started 6 (not including the current Giro), won 5, rode 1 GT before first GT win

 

[rzombie1988]

I can't believe that it was suggested that Contador is better than Merckx. No one is ever going to repeat what Merckx did. I think it's physically impossible in this day.

Contador may have won alot of GT's, but he's only won 3 TdF's and those count the most.

If we are ranking them right now(out of those 4 mentioned), I'd say:
1: Merckx - Won everything including the hour record, but is missing a medal. However, he only competed in 1 olympics
2: Indurain - Got a medal and a world championship plus 5 TdF's and 2 Giro's. Is missing a Vuelta win though.
3: Lance - 7 TdF's and a world championship
4: Alberto

If we are ranking people all time then Alberto has too much catching up to do including trying to catch Anquetil and The Badger. I do think that even though I hate Alberto, he's probably the best rider out there now. If he doesn't get suspended, he should be ruling over everyone for the next few years. I think he's maybe even capable of the triple too, which I know someone is going to do someday.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Conti's won every GT he's entered so far, so which is his 7th?

IF contador wins this Giro, it'll be 6GTs vs 7GTs vs 7GTs
The fact that both mig and contador have won other GTs than the Tour puts them ahead of LA, as does the other races they've won...
When it's 7GTs each, then he'll be ahead of both LA and Indurain through the sheer number of other stage races that he's won.

I think it's a matter of "very close, but not yet"

That "other GT greater" thing is just your opinion, man, and you seem to have missed or just ignore much when its about Lance palmares and (stage)wins in other (stage)races, one day races, classics, olympics and worlds.



I guess people who voted "yes" are very young or just haters. lol
Check your facts.

Before 2004, there are mostly just the wins listed.
http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/teams_fahrer_819.php

 

[Angliru]

Good joke of Martinelli. Leaving aside that both Indurain and Armstrong never risked to be stripped of 1 (or 2) GT titles, they dominated the Tour far more than AC (only one clear TdF-victory in 2009. 2007: gift by Bruyneel and Rabo; 2010: Schleck at least equal, if not better. AC suffered at Tourmalet, and I'm not even mentioning Chain Gate).

In addition, their opponents - at least in my memory - were (for whatever reason) stronger in average than ACs (Indurain: Guys like Berzin, Jalabert, Riis, Zülle, Rominger, Dufaux, etc. Lance: Ullrich, Puerto-Basso, Zülle, Escartin, young Vinokourov (much stronger than the nowadays edition), Pre-Crash-Beloki, Pantani, etc. AC: Well, A. Schleck. Oh, and Evans, in 2007 (should we count Ricco, who was faaar ahead of AC on the Giro-climbs 2008?).

AC has yet to accomplish a grand tour like Lance did in 2004 (six stagewins?).

OK, AC won all three GTs, that's a plus. But Lance (road) and Mig (ITT) both took World Championships. Olympic Medal-wise, they are better (Mig) or equal (Lance) to AC. Lance even enjoyed decent success in one-day-races in his pre-cancer-days, something AC is completely lacking.



This being said, AC is never going to equal Merckx. Not only because he is likely to be suspended for two years - but because the cannibal just took such an awful lot of victories in classics, (Grand)-tours etc., that he is too far ahead of everybody after him...

Dufaux???? You really lost me there!

If you look at the riders that Contador competed against and defeated, including a surprisingly spry Armstrong, Menchov (3 grand tour wins), Sastre (1 Tour, multiple podiums), Andy Schleck (multiple grand tour podiums), Evans (multiple grand tour podiums, WC), Valverde (Vuelta winner, Vuelta podiums),
it's not to be sneezed at and this could be argued at mid point of his career.

 

[Mellow Velo]

Even a "hater" like me doesn't know how to go about figuring this out.
I don't think it's clear cut, either way.
It depends upon how much emphasis on Tour wins, over everything else.
Certainly, when you compare Bertie's total palmares over the last 3 or 4 years, to any 3 or 4 year's you care to pick for Armstrong, it is Contador who wins easily, on sheer volume.
However, if you feel consistency over 7 years in the biggest race equates to a pinnacle of performance, then Lance still comes out top.

If you compare the best stages ridden by both in Grand Tours, then again, Lance still has the edge, but of course, we can select from his whole career, whereas Bertie's should only be reaching his prime. Perhaps this Giro and Tour will firmly tip the scales in the Spaniard's favour...........or not.

Maybe we should review this conundrum after CAS?

 

[theswordsman]

Just did a bit of math after the Eurosport guys discussed this.

At the age of 28 years, 311 days, Lance Armstrong won his second Tour de France

On May 29, the last day of the Giro, Contador will be 28 years, 174 days old.

If he wins, he'll have a Vuelta, two Giros, and one more Tour de France win than Lance, with another Tour to be contested before he reaches that same age. If he wins seven grand tours younger than Armstrong won two, this conversation gets serious.

 

[UpTheRoad]

That "other GT greater" thing is just your opinion, man, and you seem to have missed or just ignore much when its about Lance palmares and (stage)wins in other (stage)races, one day races, classics, olympics and worlds.



I guess people who voted "yes" are very young or just haters. lol
Check your facts.

Before 2004, there are mostly just the wins listed.
http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/teams_fahrer_819.php

AC is much younger and at first glance scrolling down to the bottom takes as long, if not longer...

http://www.radsport-news.com/sport/teams_fahrer_503.php

 

[Scirea]

Good joke of Martinelli. Leaving aside that both Indurain and Armstrong never risked to be stripped of 1 (or 2) GT titles, they dominated the Tour far more than AC (only one clear TdF-victory in 2009. 2007: gift by Bruyneel and Rabo; 2010: Schleck at least equal, if not better. AC suffered at Tourmalet, and I'm not even mentioning Chain Gate).

In what twisted universe Contador suffered on Tourmalet last year? He went easy there, following Andy without any problems. He could have win it if he wanted to and that was him out-of-form.

 

[rhubroma]

Seven consecutive TdF wins for Armstrong places him miles ahead of Contador. Even participating in the most important bike race in the world 7 times in a row is difficult.

Hands down Contador is the purer talent. And that goes for Indurain as well.

He wins from March to October. He started winning grand tours very young.

If he doesn't get taken out for doping, by the end of his career he'll have 10 grand tours under his belt and who knows how many other races.

Before Armstrong hooked up with Bruyneel, he was a half-accomplished classics rider, afterward he was a Tour champion and nothing else.

Lance was just lucky that Contador came in the next generation, because he would have beaten LA in his prime otherwise.

Contador is simply that good. And we don't even know to which heights he may yet arrive, because we haven't seen the best of him so far.

 

[Angliru]

What I did love of what Martinelli said was his calling Pantani "an abstract artist". Classic!

 

[BeachBum]

Poll is worded '...already better..' so I voted no, but as somebody else said, 'not yet' should've been a voting option. Wait 5 years and ask the question again.

How does AC vs LA stack up in terms of GT stage wins? Lance has,what, 20-something? How many does Bertie have?

 

[pmcg76]

I think it all depends on how this is judged.

On results overall, it would be Armstrong tied with Indurain> Contador.

If its based on their respective career's up to the age Contador is now, it would be Contador>>>>>>, Indurain, Lance.

If it was based on season round competitive/winning ability, it would be Contador> Indurain> Lance.

If its based on natural ability I think it would be Contador>>Indurain, Lance.

Lance had pretty much 2 different careers, pre and post cancer. Its like two completely different riders. There is no way he would have pulled out all those results if he had a regular career like Indurain or Contador. Either classics or Tours would have been lost.

 

[isayic]

Lance only won the Tour de France. Alberto already showed that he can win different GTs and other races during a season.
I feel sick when Martinelli compared Pantani and Contador. Pantani wasn't an abstract artist but mentally ill. It's sad but true.