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I wish to add Michael Rasmussen. A KOM specialist few regarded as a genuine Grand Tour contender until suddenly in 2007 he was on his way to winning the TdF until his team pulled him after he won the Aubisque stage 16. Some say he was hard done by. I think he bet the house and lost.
Singer01
BANNED
first ballot should be Lance, Ricco and either Floyd or Riis. For me a positive test or an admission is crucial.
Re:
First, the clowns that got caught or came clean - Armstrong, Landis, Ricco, Riis, etc.
Second, the unrepentant fraudsters that continue to ride the wave of glory because they never got caught - Indurain, Froome, Jensie, Cancellara, etc.
One could also argue there should be a third category for caught or admitted dopers who still make a living off of cycling by being a part of a pro team or the media - Rasmussen, Vino, Vaughters, etc.
For me, the guys in the second category are the worst until they face the day of reckoning and join the ranks of the clowns in category one.
It should be split into at least two categories.Singer01 said:
First, the clowns that got caught or came clean - Armstrong, Landis, Ricco, Riis, etc.
Second, the unrepentant fraudsters that continue to ride the wave of glory because they never got caught - Indurain, Froome, Jensie, Cancellara, etc.
One could also argue there should be a third category for caught or admitted dopers who still make a living off of cycling by being a part of a pro team or the media - Rasmussen, Vino, Vaughters, etc.
For me, the guys in the second category are the worst until they face the day of reckoning and join the ranks of the clowns in category one.
My assessment of Lemond: Exceptionally talented cyclist who abused PEDs that were en vogue during the 80s. Did not graduate to the oxygen vector doping as its abuse proliferated the peloton during the early 90s.
My opinion is supported by Lemonds success from the inception of his career. That, coupled with the fact that his decline was due to the increased wattage of his opponents while he maintained a linear performance level.
Is this not the general consensus?
My opinion is supported by Lemonds success from the inception of his career. That, coupled with the fact that his decline was due to the increased wattage of his opponents while he maintained a linear performance level.
Is this not the general consensus?
Re:
Why wouldn't LeMond have graduated to oxygen vector doping had he willingly taken PEDs in during the 80s? If he was a prolific doper he surly would have known about EPO and its magnificent benefits as it emerged in the peloton. Are you suggesting he quit doping cold turkey or simply refused to use the more powerful substances available in the 90s? Why? Because of the hunting accident?
Amazinmets87 said:
Why wouldn't LeMond have graduated to oxygen vector doping had he willingly taken PEDs in during the 80s? If he was a prolific doper he surly would have known about EPO and its magnificent benefits as it emerged in the peloton. Are you suggesting he quit doping cold turkey or simply refused to use the more powerful substances available in the 90s? Why? Because of the hunting accident?
Re: Re:
I don't know, but what is your explanation of the unusual career progress that coincidates with the introduction of blood manipulation in the peloton? Maybe he was scared of doing something that thickens your blood. You know, EPO was a research chemical until 1989 and in the early 90s you had this stories of young guys dying (true or not) and guys setting the alarm for the middle of the night.
LegendRider said:
I don't know, but what is your explanation of the unusual career progress that coincidates with the introduction of blood manipulation in the peloton? Maybe he was scared of doing something that thickens your blood. You know, EPO was a research chemical until 1989 and in the early 90s you had this stories of young guys dying (true or not) and guys setting the alarm for the middle of the night.
Re: Re:
Further evidence is Fignon's response to the introduction of EPO. A fellow rider in his early-mid 30s, already boasting an impressive palmares chose to simply climb off his bike rather than manipulate his blood to remain competitive. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume Lemond had a similar viewpoint.
Anyway, speaking of career arcs and oxygen vector doping, stunning that Rominger is older than Lemond. I have no doubt Lemond could have remained a Tour contender into the mid-90s under the tutelage of a Ferrari or Conconi.
My evidence is his performance. There was no discernable increase in Lemonds wattage between 1990 and 92, yet he was asphyxiated by supercharged rivals. If he used EPO why didn't his average wattage increase? Poor responder isn't a plausible explanation in an environment which permitted unfettered EPO abuse.LegendRider said:
Further evidence is Fignon's response to the introduction of EPO. A fellow rider in his early-mid 30s, already boasting an impressive palmares chose to simply climb off his bike rather than manipulate his blood to remain competitive. It seems perfectly reasonable to assume Lemond had a similar viewpoint.
Anyway, speaking of career arcs and oxygen vector doping, stunning that Rominger is older than Lemond. I have no doubt Lemond could have remained a Tour contender into the mid-90s under the tutelage of a Ferrari or Conconi.
As someone who lived through it, Lemond had all the signs of being a true champion. He started winning as a teenager as soon as he picked up the sport and was dominant. Within a few short years he was a pro and again racking up the wins. At 16 he won the junior national road title. AT 17 he was 3rd at world's time trial. At 18 he was junior world's road champ. At 19 he was a neopro. At 20 he was on the podium at Dauphine Libere and Route du Sud. At 21 he was excelling at one week races and came 2nd at Worlds! At the tender age of 22 he won the Worlds and was racking up wins. At 23 he was introduced to GT's and pulled off a podium at the Tour. Another successful year at age 24 and then he was winning the Tour.
This my friends, Is the career arc of a champion. If drugs were taken, they weren't needed. And given Greg's anti-doping stance and aversion to needles in an era where both were widely accepted (getting caught for some stuff would only get you a time penalty), I'd say it's highly likely Greg was cycling's last true champion. Clean too.
John Swanson
This my friends, Is the career arc of a champion. If drugs were taken, they weren't needed. And given Greg's anti-doping stance and aversion to needles in an era where both were widely accepted (getting caught for some stuff would only get you a time penalty), I'd say it's highly likely Greg was cycling's last true champion. Clean too.
John Swanson
Small correction, just because I see it said so often and it's incorrect: His Tour podium was not his GT debut. He'd ridden the Vuelta before that season.
People just don't remember it because he didn't do very well.
Anyway, as for the main message of your post, I was with you until this part where you started proselitizing
There's no need to demean every rider that came afterwards just because you're a fan of LeMond. What even is a "true champion"?
We don't know what he did or didn't do, he admits to doing cocaine but not any other PEDs.
And we'll never know definitively whether he was clean because it's been 30 years and you can't prove a negative.
People just don't remember it because he didn't do very well.
Anyway, as for the main message of your post, I was with you until this part where you started proselitizing
ScienceIsCool said:
There's no need to demean every rider that came afterwards just because you're a fan of LeMond. What even is a "true champion"?
We don't know what he did or didn't do, he admits to doing cocaine but not any other PEDs.
And we'll never know definitively whether he was clean because it's been 30 years and you can't prove a negative.
Re: Re:
I agree. My post was questioning the contention that LeMond abused PEDs in the 80s. His career arc suggests the opposite - exceptionally talented; beat riders who doped prior to oxygen vector stuff; and suddenly became pack fodder when unregulated EPO hit the scene.
Amazinmets87 said:
I agree. My post was questioning the contention that LeMond abused PEDs in the 80s. His career arc suggests the opposite - exceptionally talented; beat riders who doped prior to oxygen vector stuff; and suddenly became pack fodder when unregulated EPO hit the scene.
Re: Re:
Ah, apologies for the misinterpretation. My skepticism of truly clean GT winners stems from my knowledge of recovery over a grueling 3-week cycle race. Based on my knowledge performances such as Lemond on Champs-Élysées exceed human physiological limits without the use of performance enhancing substances. I am far less skeptical of performances in one day (and to a lesser degree one week) races.
Perhaps a clinic member more knowledgeable than I could shed insight on reduction of RBCs and muscle fatigue after 20 days racing with an average 405 watt expenditure?
LegendRider said:
Ah, apologies for the misinterpretation. My skepticism of truly clean GT winners stems from my knowledge of recovery over a grueling 3-week cycle race. Based on my knowledge performances such as Lemond on Champs-Élysées exceed human physiological limits without the use of performance enhancing substances. I am far less skeptical of performances in one day (and to a lesser degree one week) races.
Perhaps a clinic member more knowledgeable than I could shed insight on reduction of RBCs and muscle fatigue after 20 days racing with an average 405 watt expenditure?
Re:
While i dont know if he was clean or not (never looked at those discussion) you are using the same arguments you rightly help put down with other riders, when you say "if drugs were taken they weren't needed".
If drugs were taken then they made him stronger hence were needed. You can't really tell how strong someone will be from their youth. Some young riders peak in the teenage years and never improve. Others are crap and improve later. Its not like you can extrapolate an average arch and say - this rider would definately make it.
ScienceIsCool said:
While i dont know if he was clean or not (never looked at those discussion) you are using the same arguments you rightly help put down with other riders, when you say "if drugs were taken they weren't needed".
If drugs were taken then they made him stronger hence were needed. You can't really tell how strong someone will be from their youth. Some young riders peak in the teenage years and never improve. Others are crap and improve later. Its not like you can extrapolate an average arch and say - this rider would definately make it.
Re:
Horner is my very first inductee. The very fact that not a single WC team wanted him after he won the goddam Vuelta says it all. They could feel the glow from a mile away. In fact, winning the Vuelta might have been the worst career move ever for him.
After Horner, you pick 'em. I nominate Basso/Hamilton for being the "good guys" who proved that supposed character has nothing to do with clean racing. In fact, Hamilton's positive was when the veil was finally, irrevocably pulled from my eyes.
LA, well, that's too easy a target.
Scarponi said:
Horner is my very first inductee. The very fact that not a single WC team wanted him after he won the goddam Vuelta says it all. They could feel the glow from a mile away. In fact, winning the Vuelta might have been the worst career move ever for him.
After Horner, you pick 'em. I nominate Basso/Hamilton for being the "good guys" who proved that supposed character has nothing to do with clean racing. In fact, Hamilton's positive was when the veil was finally, irrevocably pulled from my eyes.
LA, well, that's too easy a target.
Re: Re:
Judging by performane alone Horner set off less red flags than Froome did two years earlier. Horner at least had shown decent climbing ability previously, even though the foundation for that ability was obviously rampant useof doping given the teams he rode for. The biggest differences between the two was that Horner was old and on he brink of retiring anyway and also had the Armstrong connection. Everyone, including the casual viewers, knew what was going on there. Froome still had the benefit of being able to spin his story as being a young up-and-comer for self-proclaimed paragons of clean cycling Team Sky.
Horner's career was all but finished anyway. The guy was almost 42.Bolder said:
Judging by performane alone Horner set off less red flags than Froome did two years earlier. Horner at least had shown decent climbing ability previously, even though the foundation for that ability was obviously rampant useof doping given the teams he rode for. The biggest differences between the two was that Horner was old and on he brink of retiring anyway and also had the Armstrong connection. Everyone, including the casual viewers, knew what was going on there. Froome still had the benefit of being able to spin his story as being a young up-and-comer for self-proclaimed paragons of clean cycling Team Sky.
Re: Re:
One thing weve seen with Froome and other British stars like that athlete who clearly doped but got off on statute of limitations, is that even if Froome had spent 5 years on US Postal and was 40 years old at the time of his transformation, SLoberingham and co would still have spun it as - proof cycling is now clean
Saint Unix said:
One thing weve seen with Froome and other British stars like that athlete who clearly doped but got off on statute of limitations, is that even if Froome had spent 5 years on US Postal and was 40 years old at the time of his transformation, SLoberingham and co would still have spun it as - proof cycling is now clean
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