Has Team Sky lost its mojo?

[Vonn Brinkman]

But will Wiggins be going for the GC of the Giro? Like last year, he may just want to lay low and build up, maybe help Lovkvist and EBH.
Last years' results showed that the top of the Giro did badly in the Tour, and Wiggins did not show himself much and got 4th in the tour. I think he could maybe get a stage but think he will not have the form or the will to get high up the GC of the Giro.

 

[ingsve]

But will Wiggins be going for the GC of the Giro? Like last year, he may just want to lay low and build up, maybe help Lovkvist and EBH.
Last years' results showed that the top of the Giro did badly in the Tour, and Wiggins did not show himself much and got 4th in the tour. I think he could maybe get a stage but think he will not have the form or the will to get high up the GC of the Giro.

Neither Löfkvist or EBH will be at the giro but there may be others that he could help. Way back they mentioned riding for Cioni in the Giro but who knows if that's still the plan.

 

[maltiv]

While the 2 "winners" on the team, Henderson and EBH, have done pretty well all things taken in consideration, it is the supposedly consistent riders such as Löfkvist and Gerrans who have "failed" in my opinion. They should both be able to be top 10 in the hilly classics, while Löfkvist also should be able to challenge for the overall in 1 week races - which he unfortunately hasn't even been close to. For example last year he did pretty well at Tirreno, both at the time trial and at the climbs, while this year he wasn't even close. Both his time trial skills and climbing seems to have been seriously weakened since last year, based on what we have seen so far anyway.

With its otherwise weak squad when it comes to climbing, Sky has put its faith in Gerrans and Löfkvist to deliver in these kinds of races. Because they didn't, Team Sky as a whole has pretty much looked like a joke in every slightly hilly race. They have however done quite well in the cobbled classics and flat courses in general.

 

[theyoungest]

Fair point, his results in the longer stages of the Giro were very disappointing?

Where do these group-think opinions come from? Wishful thinking? I've heard this one so many times, but it doesn't become any less baseless. Go and look at the evidence for his apparently suspect 200K+ engine.

A 240 k Giro stage is something else entirely than a 260 k classic. The racing isn't nearly as hard and the nervousness isn't as high.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Fair point, his results in the longer stages of the Giro were very disappointing?

Where do these group-think opinions come from? Wishful thinking? I've heard this one so many times, but it doesn't become any less baseless. Go and look at the evidence for his apparently suspect 200K+ engine.

a 200+ k stage in a grand tour is much different than in a classic and I said I have my doubts I'm not ruling him out

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

You've forgotten Gerdemann.

oh yes, but I don't think/hope anyone is expecting anything from him anymore

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

a 200+ k stage in a grand tour is much different than in a classic and I said I have my doubts I'm not ruling him out

You didn't say classic, you just said 200K+, and you still haven't explained where these doubts come from, other than that it seems to be a popular opinion around here which has no evidential basis.

The guy won a 244Km stage the day after coming 2nd in a 248km stage. THE ONLY CONCLUSION TO BE DRAWN IS HE COPES WITH DISTANCE EXTREMELY WELL, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING HIS AGE.

Sorry to sink to pharmstrong troll levels of punctuation, but I just can't understand the pigheaded determination to call black white on this one.

 

[theyoungest]

You didn't say classic, you just said 200K+, and you still haven't explained where these doubts come from, other than that it seems to be a popular opinion around here which has no evidential basis.

The guy won a 244Km stage the day after coming 2nd in a 248km stage. THE ONLY CONCLUSION TO BE DRAWN IS HE COPES WITH DISTANCE EXTREMELY WELL, ESPECIALLY CONSIDERING HIS AGE.

Sorry to sink to pharmstrong troll levels of punctuation, but I just can't understand the pigheaded determination to call black white on this one.

The problem with surviving the 200 k threshold in a classic isn't so much the distance as the toughness. If you stick in a 240 k stage in the Eneco Tour (God forbid) EBH would probably win it as well. But that's because the racing isn't as hard.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

The problem with surviving the 200 k threshold in a classic isn't so much the distance as the toughness. If you stick in a 240 k stage in the Eneco Tour (God forbid) EBH would probably win it as well. But that's because the racing isn't as hard.

And the giro is a parking lot crit.

Please explain to me what evidence you have for this weakness - what exactly is a 22 year old cyclist supposed to have done to demonstrate this ability you see lacking.

Go back and look at the list of names he beat in those Giro stages. I'm just really struggling to understand how demonstrable excellence in the very longest of GT stages, and a win at GW is outweighed by some gut instinct people have but can't explain.

Does he have to have won PR by age 22 or we assume he hasn't got the legs/heart/whatever characteristic you're questioning?

 

[pmcg76]

And the giro is a parking lot crit.

Please explain to me what evidence you have for this weakness - what exactly is a 22 year old cyclist supposed to have done to demonstrate this ability you see lacking.

Go back and look at the list of names he beat in those Giro stages. I'm just really struggling to understand how demonstrable excellence in the very longest of GT stages, and a win at GW is outweighed by some gut instinct people have but can't explain.

Does he have to have won PR by age 22 or we assume he hasn't got the legs/heart/whatever characteristic you're questioning?

I think the point is, EBH does have a lot of potential as shown by his wins but has yet to show he can manage the longer distances and be a winner. Maybe it is due to his age as you point out but until he demonstrates that ability, there will be the question mark of going from potential star to the real deal.

He is not the first rider to have this theory lobbed at him, a few seasons back people were saying the same thing about Philip Gilbert even after he had won Het Volk the first time. Of course, Gilbert has stepped up and shown he can manage the longer distances very well. EBH has to do the same thing.

Charly Mottet was another rider who this was said of in major GTs, capable of being up there in the shake-up for a Tour de France but missing that extra bit to last the distance and be a winner. Take into account Mottet won 3 Dauphines, Tour of Romandy, 4 Days of Dunkirk etc.

I too agree that winning a 200km+ stage in a major Tour is not in the same league as winning a major Classic unless its a mountain stage we are talking about.

I personally have nothing against EBH or SKY but when you constantly hear about EBH being the next big thing, it does add the pressure to deliver. Maybe not the Norwegians fault but that is the way it works.

In general SKY are perfroming as I expected, good but nowhere near as good as the hype surrounding them suggested. To me, only Hayman, Downing and maybe Cummings are performing above what was expected. The rest are going as expected or worse in Gerrans case. People were hyping up guys like Froome and Augustyn and I just didnt get it. SKY do look like a weak support team for a Tour contender. Stage winning potnetial yeah but not a good support team for the mountains.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

I think the point is, EBH does have a lot of potential as shown by his wins but has yet to show he can manage the longer distances and be a winner(As we have already discussed - wrong.. Maybe it is due to his age as you point out but until he demonstrates that ability, there will be the question mark of going from potential star to the real deal.

He is not the first rider to have this theory lobbed at him, a few seasons back people were saying the same thing about Philip Gilbert even after he had won Het Volk the first time. Of course, Gilbert has stepped up and shown he can manage the longer distances very well. EBH has to do the same thing.

Charly Mottet was another rider who this was said of in major GTs, capable of being up there in the shake-up for a Tour de France but missing that extra bit to last the distance and be a winner. Take into account Mottet won 3 Dauphines, Tour of Romandy, 4 Days of Dunkirk etc.

I too agree that winning a 200km+ stage in a major Tour is not in the same league as winning a major Classic unless its a mountain stage we are talking about.

I personally have nothing against EBH or SKY but when you constantly hear about EBH being the next big thing, it does add the pressure to deliver. Maybe not the Norwegians fault but that is the way it works.

In general SKY are perfroming as I expected, good but nowhere near as good as the hype surrounding them suggested. To me, only Hayman, Downing and maybe Cummings are performing above what was expected. The rest are going as expected or worse in Gerrans case. People were hyping up guys like Froome and Augustyn and I just didnt get it. SKY do look like a weak support team for a Tour contender. Stage winning potnetial yeah but not a good support team for the mountains.

Still waiting for someone to tell me what he has done to deserve the herd opinion he can't win long races. In the meantime, I'll continue to look through his palmares, which demonstrates a clear preference for longer races in bad weather.

 

[theyoungest]

And the giro is a parking lot crit.

Please explain to me what evidence you have for this weakness - what exactly is a 22 year old cyclist supposed to have done to demonstrate this ability you see lacking.

Go back and look at the list of names he beat in those Giro stages. I'm just really struggling to understand how demonstrable excellence in the very longest of GT stages, and a win at GW is outweighed by some gut instinct people have but can't explain.

Does he have to have won PR by age 22 or we assume he hasn't got the legs/heart/whatever characteristic you're questioning?

Once (only once) figuring in a 260 k race will demonstrate this ability. He hasn't done so, yet. I'm sure he will in the future. But to use a Giro stage as proof that he's already capable of competing in the classics is BS.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Once (only once) figuring in a 260 k race will demonstrate this ability. He hasn't done so, yet. I'm sure he will in the future. But to use a Giro stage as proof that he's already capable of competing in the classics is BS.

Don't try to turn this round - I'm pleased you've now conceded you expect him to compete in future - that was all I ever argued if you care to refer to my first post in this thread.

The OP stated he didn't think BH could cope with long stages - I gave clear evidence showing why this was at best unfounded, and at worst disproved.

The argument was then conveniently changed to classics races. I continued to maintain that outstanding results, concentrated in longer stages, together with a GW win age 21 provides plenty of reason to believe he should be more than capable (you now seem to agree), and simply asked someone, anyone, to explain where this opinion that he can't cope comes from, because it is a very widely held opinion on this board, but I've never had the origin explained to me.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Still waiting for someone to tell me what he has done to deserve the herd opinion he can't win long races. In the meantime, I'll continue to look through his palmares, which demonstrates a clear preference for longer races in bad weather.

my god can you even read?? I said I have doubts whether he has the engine to go 200k+ just like kirchen and other guys have that problem that are great riders despite that.

so far he hasn't shown anything in a 200+k classic race and I'm not counting those giro stages because they are not one day races where the pressure and racing is much harder. he won those stages in a long break for crying out loud.

 

[pmcg76]

Once (only once) figuring in a 260 k race will demonstrate this ability. He hasn't done so, yet. I'm sure he will in the future. But to use a Giro stage as proof that he's already capable of competing in the classics is BS.

Yeah, that is why I included Gibert in my point, he was questioned about his capabilities and it wasnt really until last year that Gilbert showed he could compete and win the big races. Even though he had won 2 Het Volk and Paris-Tours, people still doubted his ability in races like Flanders, P-R, Liege etc. As you say once EBH proves he can, the unfair question will disappear.

Would EBH have won or been competing for the win at Flanders, P=R this year? possibly but we dont know for sure.

 

[Anonymous]

Man utd are second in the league, out of the fa cup and out of europe

And sky hasn't done that well on a comparative scale*. How is Wigan doing?






*Hey, it was Wigans who made the comparison, not me.

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

my god can you even read?? I said I have doubts whether he has the engine to go 200k+ just like kirchen and other guys have that problem that are great riders despite that.

so far he hasn't shown anything in a 200+k classic race and I'm not counting those giro stages because they are not one day races where the pressure and racing is much harder. he won those stages in a long break for crying out loud.

No need to be rude - It's evident you can read but can not comprehend.

I am perfectly aware what YOU have said about the doubts that YOU have.

My question is whether you have any basis whatsoever for your doubts beyond BH not yet having won a 200+Km classic (by which I presume you mean PR or RVF).

Please confront the sillyness of this - most 22 year old cyclists have barely turned pro - here you have one who has won a semi-classic and beaten plenty of top riders over very long stages multiple times, and you're saying you doubt his engine over 200+Km on the basis that he hasn't yet (at age 22, and having missed both races this year) won perhaps the 2 biggest races in the calendar.

Because so far I can see you offering no reason whatsoever aside from a failure to beat Cancellara in either race, or existential doubt.

Some reasons for your opinions would be appreciated - sadly it seems I will be waiting a while.

 

[theyoungest]

No need to be rude - It's evident you can read but can not comprehend.

I am perfectly aware what YOU have said about the doubts that YOU have.

My question is whether you have any basis whatsoever for your doubts beyond BH not yet having won a 200+Km classic (by which I presume you mean PR or RVF).

Please confront the sillyness of this - most 22 year old cyclists have barely turned pro - here you have one who has won a semi-classic and beaten plenty of top riders over very long stages multiple times, and you're saying you doubt his engine over 200+Km on the basis that he hasn't yet (at age 22, and having missed both races this year) won perhaps the 2 biggest races in the calendar.

Because so far I can see you offering no reason whatsoever aside from a failure to beat Cancellara in either race, or existential doubt.

Some reasons for your opinions would be appreciated - sadly it seems I will be waiting a while.

Dude, every pro rider can do 240 k. It's not like a rider who doesn't have a big enough engine drops off his bike as soon as he passes the 200 k threshold. The problem is: can they do the same distance at top level in an incredibly hard and nervous classic? EBH has finished far back in any 260 k race he's done so far. Same goes for Lars Boom, for example.

 

[ferryman]

On EBH: Oh stop arguing over the stamina of an exremely talented, likeable and clean young guy who could turn out to be anything. OK, he rides for Team Sky, not everybody's fav team but come on, have this debate 3/4/5/6/7 years from now if it turns out worth a debate. My money is on it won't

 

[Waterloo Sunrise]

Dude, every pro rider can do 240 k. It's not like a rider who doesn't have a big enough engine drops off his bike as soon as he passes the 200 k threshold. The problem is: can they do the same distance at top level in an incredibly hard and nervous classic? EBH has finished far back in any 260 k race he's done so far. Same goes for Lars Boom, for example.

There you go, that's called a reason.

For the last hour I've just had people repeatedly posting statements of opinion without offering any explanation of how they reached that opinion.

I disagree with both your opinion and your evidence, but we are at least making progress.

Bedtime for me.

 

[ingsve]

They should both be able to be top 10 in the hilly classics, while Löfkvist also should be able to challenge for the overall in 1 week races - which he unfortunately hasn't even been close to. For example last year he did pretty well at Tirreno, both at the time trial and at the climbs, while this year he wasn't even close. Both his time trial skills and climbing seems to have been seriously weakened since last year, based on what we have seen so far anyway.

Yes, Löfkvists results in stage races this year hasn't been what I would have hoped. There are reasons given for this though. First of all he's changed his season setup to be in form later in the year instead of being in good shape already at the start of the spring season like in previous years. That lone would lessen the expectations.

Other than that the explanations given have been that he has had alot of bad luck so far this season. In Tirreno he was sick for a few days which supposedly ruined that race for him. In Criterium International his preparations where ruined by being stuck in an airport and not arriving to Corsica until very late the evening before the race. And finally in Pais Vasco he crashed on the first stage causing him to lose time and to give up on hte GC.

Those are at least the reasons given but at some point you start to wonder how much of it are simply excuses. My guess is that we won't see until the Tour how and if Löfkvists potential has change any from previous years. In the meantime it doesn't look to good in the results lists but at the same time it doesn't seem that the team is worried in any way.

 

[Anonymous]

How is Wigan doing?

Results went their way this weekend and they are now safe from relegation

 

[Dr. Maserati]

On EBH: Oh stop arguing over the stamina of an exremely talented, likeable and clean young guy who could turn out to be anything. OK, he rides for Team Sky, not everybody's fav team but come on, have this debate 3/4/5/6/7 years from now if it turns out worth a debate. My money is on it won't

I think this is it - he is only 22, has shown excellent potential but it is still too early to say exactly where his 'fit' within the peloton is. If he was uninjured for the Spring campaign it would offer a much better insight.

A 260k Giro stage and a 260k Classic are very different imo - but the fact that he has won a long stage again shows his potential.

One criticism I have of Team Sky management is it is putting too much pressure and in particular hype on the guy - there is no doubting his potential, but he needs to find his own way rather than being thrust in as the main man.

 

[maltiv]

One criticism I have of Team Sky management is it is putting too much pressure and in particular hype on the guy - there is no doubting his potential, but he needs to find his own way rather than being thrust in as the main man.

Personally I think Team Sky did a HUGE mistake letting EBH ride E3 and G-W with his achilles injury. Perhaps he insisted he wanted to ride, but they should not have let him anyway...I am afraid he won't even be ready for TDF because of this.

 

[stefrees]

team sky - 8 wins, one semi classic, a classic podium, some non existent showings, but stage wins in both paris - nice and tirreno - adriatico. decent, not poor by any stretch. in football analogy, they are fulham, mid table some good wins, performing admirably when needed but some poor losses.

they certainly have done better than bianchigirl, moondance etc are saying