Teams & Riders He's coming home!!!! Alejandro Valverde comeback thread.

[ultimobici]

He may have served his suspension but I hope that in the light of his arrogant denials he falls flat. But hey any more and we'll be in the clinic where any discussion of this character truly belongs.

 

[Shardi]

Gonna be nice to see all the schleck/evans fans get upset and hurt when thier heroes goes into auto second behind yet another rider. A rider who is an awful cheater whos should burn.

Others look forward to the tdf, gilberts chance of 2011 repeat, cancellaras revenge on the cobbles... I look forward to seeing all the rage unleashed from the mentioned fans..

Sad. Sure, but its frickin hilarious everytime..

 

[auscyclefan94]

Gonna be nice to see all the schleck/evans fans get upset and hurt when thier heroes goes into auto second behind yet another rider. A rider who is an awful cheater whos should burn.

Others look forward to the tdf, gilberts chance of 2011 repeat, cancellaras revenge on the cobbles... I look forward to seeing all the rage unleashed from the mentioned fans..

Sad. Sure, but its frickin hilarious everytime..

Weeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!

 

[FignonLeGrand]

it will be interesting to see if valverde is up to the heads of state's racing speeds next year. hope so. probably more so in the one day races and perhaps one week stage races than GTs. but you never know. it seems as though he has been training quite seriously.

imo he's the most complete rider overall. if that makes me a fanboy so be it.

Can he be? Evans has one major one days and major tours, he has elevated himself a level above Valverde, no?

Also Gilbert on this years form will give him a few headaches.

Gonna be interesting to watch the ardennes next year

 

[Midnightfright]

Gonna be nice to see all the schleck/evans fans get upset and hurt when thier heroes goes into auto second behind yet another rider. A rider who is an awful cheater whos should burn.

Others look forward to the tdf, gilberts chance of 2011 repeat, cancellaras revenge on the cobbles... I look forward to seeing all the rage unleashed from the mentioned fans..

Sad. Sure, but its frickin hilarious everytime..

Wait a minute what Schleck fans there aren't any Schleck fans round here

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Can he be? Evans has one major one days and major tours, he has elevated himself a level above Valverde, no?

Also Gilbert on this years form will give him a few headaches.

Gonna be interesting to watch the ardennes next year

Evans has won major one days:
Worlds
Flèche Wallonne

Valverde has won major one days:
Flèche Wallonne
Liège-Bastogne-Liège
Liège-Bastogne-Liège
San Sebastián

I'd say Valverde's still ahead of Evans here, because 2 monuments > 1 Worlds imo.

Evans has won major stage races:
Tour de France
Tour de Romandie
Tour de Romandie
Tirreno-Adriatico
Settimana Coppi e Bartali
Österreich Rundfahrt
Österreich Rundfahrt

Valverde has won major stage races:
Vuelta a España
Dauphiné Libéré
Dauphiné Libéré
Tour de Romandie
Volta a Catalunya
Vuelta a Burgos
Vuelta a Burgos
Tour Méditerranéen
Vuelta a Murcía
Vuelta a Murcía
Volta a la Comunidad Valenciana
Volta a la Comunidad Valenciana

In terms of "major races", Valverde has more (5 to Evans' 4), but Evans holds the obvious advantage of his GT victory being the Tour as opposed to Valverde's Vuelta. Valverde goes some way to closing that gap with two Dauphinés, which most would rate higher than Romandie, but it's not enough to close that gap fully. However, when it comes to the medium-sized and minor stage race wins, Valverde is so far ahead it's crazy.

We can debate who has the better palmarès until the cows come home. And remember, this is only WINS we're talking about here, both have countless high placings to balance off against each other. But can we REALLY say that Evans' one is "a level above" Valverde's? I can't accept that we can.

 

[nobilis]

Btw, I didn't find it very professional from cyclingnews to put as a subtitle : "'Piti to return to the peloton in 2012'"

 

[will10]

Purely based on palmares I would say they are level.

 

[18-Valve. (pithy)]

Let's face it, Valverde didn't fail any tests and was caught somewhat, err, indirectly.

http://www.tas-cas.org/d2wfiles/document/4238/5048/0/Award20Valverdi20139620&201402.pdf

Given this and the support he received over in the Iberian peninsula from the authorities would it be much of a stretch to presume that: 1) he should still have full confidence in his preparation and 2) there's no reason for him to change anything drastically

So yeah, I'd make an educated guess that he will come out flying and make Rebellin 2011 look like Di Luca.

I don't really disagree with that assessment. But the same ((1) and (2)) applies to the ones that didn't get caught. Valverde still has the disadvantage of not having had any racing days in the past 2 years.

 

[slowoldman]

I'd say Valverde's still ahead of Evans here, because 2 monuments > 1 Worlds imo.

I would bet most pros would take the little bands on their jersey for the rest of their career than 1 more LBL.

 

[jens_attacks]

Btw, I didn't find it very professional from cyclingnews to put as a subtitle : "'Piti to return to the peloton in 2012'"

i don't take seriosly cyclingnews news part since a long time anyway.

 

[The Hitch]

Can he be? Evans has one major one days and major tours, he has elevated himself a level above Valverde, no?

Also Gilbert on this years form will give him a few headaches.

Gonna be interesting to watch the ardennes next year

No. Evans may be the better rider and have the most attractive palmares but Valverde is the best all rounder.


Ill aknowledge Evans has a wide range of talents. He can climb, he can tt, both slightly better than Valverde. He can descend around the same level as Valverde, and he can compete in 1 day races though obviously Valverde is better in that regard.

But Evans can't sprint half as fast as Valverde and when measuring all rounders, greatness in as many catergories as possible is necessary.

The other problem is, Evans, has these talents, but they are only on display once in a while.

We say he is a great 1 day racer based on 2 victories over a long career, both won through climbing (and 1 or 2 other good performances). He won 3 stage races this year, yes, but when was the last time before that he won 1.



Valverde meanwhile racks up the victories and the podiums everywhere he goes. In Pais Vasco last year, which he didn't even win, he podiumed 5 of the 6 stages. That included sprints, mountains, hills and tts.

He has won more stages in his 4 attempts at the Tour de France than Cadel has in all his Grand Tours put together.

In the Ardennes classics he has 4 podiums on top of his 3 wins. He also has 3 podiums in the worlds.

Cadel is saved largely because of this year. He has had such a succesful year. Before this year there was not even a comparison. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=329000&postcount=34

He was great the last few years as well of course but not as much as Valverde. The point is, Piti has been bringing all those qualities time and time again since 2003, winning several stage and 1 day races every year.

And lets not forget that at the age Valverde is now, Cadel did not have much to his palmares.

So I would say Valverde is the better all rounder.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Cadel is a good descender, but Valverde is definitely better in that aspect. Only slightly, probably balancing out Cadel being a slightly better climber. Evans has a bigger advantage in the TT department though.

Valverde has the better one-day palmarès. In terms of short stage races he has it by a country mile. Evans' Tour win and two other podiums are what make it close, and a case can be made for both. It's a good rivalry, because they're so evenly matched.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

I would bet most pros would take the little bands on their jersey for the rest of their career than 1 more LBL.

"1 more LBL"? We're not talking Valverde winning the Worlds ON TOP OF winning LBL. I'm sure Valverde would happily trade one of his LBLs in for the Worlds. But I'm not sure he'd happily trade BOTH in.

We're talking 1x Worlds vs. 2x Monument.

The Worlds are hugely prestigious. But they're not twice as prestigious as the monuments.

And that's also not taking San Sebastián into account. Both riders have won Flèche Wallonne.

What you're saying is that the World Championships RR is worth more than two monuments and another Classic put together.

 

[El Pistolero]

Cadel might even come close to Phil then in one day races

 

[Kvinto]

who cares? i don't get the issue i acknowledge the necessity of comparison in the case of who has better chances to win hmm... as the example Tour de Suisse, but absolutely fail to perceive it when it's going to what is bigger in terms of legacy one Tour or 2xLBL
they are both great riders!

 

[Walkman]

No. Evans may be the better rider and have the most attractive palmares but Valverde is the best all rounder.


Ill aknowledge Evans has a wide range of talents. He can climb, he can tt, both slightly better than Valverde. He can descend around the same level as Valverde, and he can compete in 1 day races though obviously Valverde is better in that regard.

But Evans can't sprint half as fast as Valverde and when measuring all rounders, greatness in as many catergories as possible is necessary.

The other problem is, Evans, has these talents, but they are only on display once in a while.

We say he is a great 1 day racer based on 2 victories over a long career, both won through climbing (and 1 or 2 other good performances). He won 3 stage races this year, yes, but when was the last time before that he won 1.



Valverde meanwhile racks up the victories and the podiums everywhere he goes. In Pais Vasco last year, which he didn't even win, he podiumed 5 of the 6 stages. That included sprints, mountains, hills and tts.

He has won more stages in his 4 attempts at the Tour de France than Cadel has in all his Grand Tours put together.

In the Ardennes classics he has 4 podiums on top of his 3 wins. He also has 3 podiums in the worlds.

Cadel is saved largely because of this year. He has had such a succesful year. Before this year there was not even a comparison. http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=329000&postcount=34

He was great the last few years as well of course but not as much as Valverde. The point is, Piti has been bringing all those qualities time and time again since 2003, winning several stage and 1 day races every year.

And lets not forget that at the age Valverde is now, Cadel did not have much to his palmares.

So I would say Valverde is the better all rounder.

He has also been cheating time and time again since 2003. Cadel may have been doing that aswell, but in piti's case it's a fact, hence his victories should be viewed differently in my humble opinion.

And Cadel has been on the podium in Paris three times and finished fourth another time. He also has been second in Dauphiné Libéré four times. So piti isn't the only one with a lot of podiums.

 

[airstream]

He has won more stages in his 4 attempts at the Tour de France than Cadel has in all his Grand Tours put together.

You don't take into account Evans' victory in Albi.

For me personally Evans is a lot stronger. Any of his 2nd places on the TdF is equal to all Valverde's Dauphine and Romandie. If Evans had known that he is not allowed to ride the Tour and set the goals to win one-week races (theoretically), he'd easily been taken them. Yeah, Valverde is an all-rounder to a greater degree , but it makes him just a little more universal. It's not about strength.

 

[Kvinto]

He has also been cheating time and time again since 2003. Cadel may have been doing that aswell, but in piti's case it's a fact, hence his victories should be viewed differently in my humble opinion.

And Cadel has been on the podium in Paris three times and finished fourth another time. He also has been second in Dauphiné Libéré four times. So piti isn't the only one with a lot of podiums.

What a fact , it was not proven in the court and so none of his wins (over that period) was taken away from him. It doesn't mean he didn't cheat but in fact in this regard he is as a cheater as Cadel.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

who cares? i don't get the issue i acknowledge the necessity of comparison in the case of who has better chances to win hmm... as the example Tour de Suisse, but absolutely fail to perceive it when it's going to what is bigger in terms of legacy one Tour or 2xLBL
they are both great riders!

The issue arose because of this:

Can he be? Evans has one major one days and major tours, he has elevated himself a level above Valverde, no?

Evans has NOT elevated himself a level above Valverde by winning major one days and major Tours. Valverde has done this too. There is no scale whereby Evans is "a level above". You can come down saying Evans has the better palmarès and skillset, or you can come down saying Valverde has the better palmarès and skillset. They're very evenly matched and so it makes for an interesting debate. But they're both on the same level, which is "absolutely among the world's elite". There is no clear divide in their achievements that states that Evans must be seen as clearly superior. In fact, when it comes to victories, Valverde has him smoked. However, Evans has a couple of bigger victories and some better non-victory placements to counter this. Hence, I took exception to the post above and started the value of the palmarès discussion.

Anyway, it's nice to know that in YET ANOTHER thread which isn't about Evans, we're talking about Evans again.

 

[airstream]

It's the eternal antagonism between you and Auscyclingfan

 

[nobilis]

This is contador era regarding the tour. No one, since 2007, should be winning the tour other than him, in normal circumstances. So I guess Cadel (and Sastre) just got lucky that Contador won an exceptionnally tough Giro.
So other than that, Valverde's palmares is clearly more solid than Cadel's, despite 2 years of suspension.

 

[The Hitch]

He has also been cheating time and time again since 2003. Cadel may have been doing that aswell, but in piti's case it's a fact, hence his victories should be viewed differently in my humble opinion.

Wrong subforum.

And Cadel has been on the podium in Paris three times and finished fourth another time. He also has been second in Dauphiné Libéré four times. So piti isn't the only one with a lot of podiums.

I was not comparing their palmares but their abilities.

If you read my post you will notice that I was talking only about 1 day races - stages and classics.

Sure in a long gt, Cadel is better at hanging with others in the mountains ergo he gets a better placing in the GT overall so hes a better gt rider.


So it wouldnt really matter if Cadel has more GT podiums, has no Gt podiums or if he has won every gt for the last 10 years, because thats not what I am talking about.

He wins his stage races by being in the top 3 of a stage maybe once or twice, whereas Valverde uses his talents to the max on every stage he can.

For example Cadels Romandie win this year had him 2nd on 1 stage and 7th on another.

When Valverde won Romandie he got a 2nd on one stage, a win on the final stage and also won a sprint for 5th on another stage.

I already mentioned the incredible Pais Vasco where his stage finishes were
Win, Win, 20th, 2nd, 3rd, 2nd.

Of all the stage races he has won or podiumed, he has a hanful of times done it without winning a stage and usually makes up for that by winning 2 or 3 stages in the next stage race he enters.

In 10 Grand Tours he has started in he has won 8 stages.

And in the classics he is almost always up there . Its not a case of a win here a win there and a podium here, but a case of, if Valverdes in the race, you know that he will challenge.

That is someone, who uses his talents to the absolute max.

 

[Tank Engine]

I'm looking forward to Valverde coming back. I guess it's because he always races. I'm glad to hear he's been training hard. I reckon he'll start racing in Mallorca and that will be enough to be in form for the Ardennes.

 

[Walkman]

This is contador era regarding the tour. No one, since 2007, should be winning the tour other than him, in normal circumstances. So I guess Cadel (and Sastre) just got lucky that Contador won an exceptionnally tough Giro.
So other than that, Valverde's palmares is clearly more solid than Cadel's, despite 2 years of suspension.

We are getting a bit of topic here but AC was handed his first TDF victoriy by Rabo and just imagine if Ullrich and Basso hadn't been suspended?! Would AC have any Tour victories by now, in that case? If anything AC was handed this "era" of which you speak, from the spanish authorities when they decided not to investigate their "national treasure". Bad luck for Ullrich and Basso though, if only they had been born in Spain...