Teams & Riders He's coming home!!!! Alejandro Valverde comeback thread.

[The Hitch]

Yeah, Valverde is an all-rounder to a greater degree , but it makes him just a little more universal. It's not about strength.

Yeah, thats what I was talking about. Eager to get into an argument you assumed I was saying that Valverde is a stronger cyclist than Evans.

But thats not what I was saying ( I think Evans is stronger atm, though for a fair comparison, well see when Valverde is Evans age what their palmares look like).

I was saying nothing more than, to quote you "Valverde is an all-rounder to a greater degree".

 

[roundabout]

Evans is a better stage racer while Valverde is better 1-day racer and stage hunter.

Not sure what there is to discuss.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Evans is a better stage racer while Valverde is better 1-day racer and stage hunter.

Not sure what there is to discuss.

I'd argue that, too. Valverde has a better palmarès of stage races too.

Evans is a better GT rider, most definitely, that much is clear, but over short stage races Valverde's palmarès is Evans' equal if not slightly better in major one-week races, and smokes the Aussie's record in medium and minor ones.

It's just that the races where Evans holds the advantage are a bit more important.

 

[The Hitch]

We are getting a bit of topic here but AC was handed his first TDF victoriy by Rabo and just imagine if Ullrich and Basso hadn't been suspended?! Would AC have any Tour victories by now, in that case? If anything AC was handed this "era" of which you speak, from the spanish authorities when they decided not to investigate their "national treasure". Bad luck for Ullrich and Basso though, if only they had been born in Spain...

I agree that his 2007 victory was handed to him, by Puerto, Rasmussens problems and also VInos injuries.

2009 however I don't think Basso (who won neither the Giro nor the Vuelta), nor a 36 year old Ullrich could have beaten him, and even less so in 2010.

So he would have Tour victories but not as many. In this alternate universe would he have done the Tour in 2008 maybe though.

Its all hypothetical but if we were to redo this 2008 Tour with Contador, Rasmussen, Ullrich, Vino, Basso, Sastre Evans,

Either Basso or Contador would have won imo.

 

[roundabout]

Major stage races (correct me if I have missed anything)

Evans

1st Romandie (2), Tirreno, Tour
2nd Poland, Dauphine (4), Tour (2), Pais Vasco,
3rd Romandie, Pais Vasco, Vuelta, Tirreno

Valverde

1st Dauphine (2), Catalunya, Vuelta
2nd Paris-Nice, Pais Vasco, Vuelta,
3rd Vuelta, Romandie, Criterium International

And asterixed

1st Romandie
2nd Paris-Nice, Pais Vasco

 

[The Hitch]

This is contador era regarding the tour. No one, since 2007, should be winning the tour other than him, in normal circumstances. So I guess Cadel (and Sastre) just got lucky that Contador won an exceptionnally tough Giro.
So other than that, Valverde's palmares is clearly more solid than Cadel's, despite 2 years of suspension.

If you had made this post a month ago, a torrent of abuse would have been hurled at you from about half a dozen posters, labelling you a fanboy, claiming to read your mind, and loudly announcing that you should be placed on ignore lists.

 

[Walkman]

If you had made this post a month ago, a torrent of abuse would have been hurled at you from about half a dozen posters, labelling you a fanboy, claiming to read your mind, and loudly announcing that you should be placed on ignore lists.

Well, in all fairness, it's kind of weird saying Evans ans Sastres victories happend because of the lack of AC or AC doing the Giro.

If anything, all AC's career has been much thanks to the absence of riders like Armstong, Landis, Rasmussen, Vino, Basso and Ullrich. And to even mention Sastre in this regard is so silly it's not even...explainable. The whole Astana team got thrown out of the 2007 Tour and yet AC goes to that team the following year. AC missing the -08 Tour was totally his own fault. Sastres victory was well earned, and I don't even like the guy that much.

 

[nobilis]

If you had made this post a month ago, a torrent of abuse would have been hurled at you from about half a dozen posters, labelling you a fanboy, claiming to read your mind, and loudly announcing that you should be placed on ignore lists.

Yeah and i guess it's past midnight in Australia now.

But i can understand that u made a similar comment a while ago?

 

[Havetts]

I just can't understand how after 2007 it was the Contador-era, if we are talking about luck think about Rabo pulling out Rasmussen. Talk about him being lucky being mentioned in Puerto and being Spanish so he didnt get a 2 year uppercut to his career like Ullrich and Basso.

But yea cause Contador is the best no one else should be winning any other races, frankly people should just stop bother racing at all cause you know Contador beats them anyways..


Bloody fanboys

 

[roundabout]

Watch out for the torrent of abuse.

 

[Havetts]

Watch out for the torrent of abuse.

Too late.

 

[The Hitch]

But i can understand that u made a similar comment a while ago?

No, I just said that I think Contador is a better time trialist than Evans

 

[El Pistolero]

Well, in all fairness, it's kind of weird saying Evans ans Sastres victories happend because of the lack of AC or AC doing the Giro.

If anything, all AC's career has been much thanks to the absence of riders like Armstong, Landis, Rasmussen, Vino, Basso and Ullrich. And to even mention Sastre in this regard is so silly it's not even...explainable. The whole Astana team got thrown out of the 2007 Tour and yet AC goes to that team the following year. AC missing the -08 Tour was totally his own fault. Sastres victory was well earned, and I don't even like the guy that much.

Armstrong retired and he beat him anyway in 2009 and 2010. You can't include riders like that, everyone has to retire LOL. Landis? The guy was never going to win a Tour again anymore after his hip surgery anyway.

Vino? Could never win a Tour, was beaten by Contador already in 2007. Also in 2010 again.

Basso? Well, Contador has beaten him in the 2010 Tour and 2011 Tour. In fact, probably beaten him in about every stage race they ever encountered each other. In fact, Contador already beat him in the Vuelta a Castila y Leon in 2007 when they were riding for the same team

Ullrich? Dude was ancient old already anyway.

 

[nobilis]

Armstrong retired and he beat him anyway in 2009 and 2010. You can't include riders like that, everyone has to retire LOL. Landis? The guy was never going to win a Tour again anymore after his hip surgery anyway.

Vino? Could never win a Tour, was beaten by Contador already in 2007. Also in 2010 again.

Basso? Well, Contador has beaten him in the 2010 Tour and 2011 Tour. In fact, probably beaten him in about every stage race they ever encountered each other. In fact, Contador already beat him in the Vuelta a Castila y Leon in 2007 when they were riding for the same team

Ullrich? Dude was ancient old already anyway.

+1

that's what i wanted to reply too.

And if Merckx and Indurain didn't retire, there would be no chance for Contador to win.

 

[Walkman]

Armstrong retired and he beat him anyway in 2009 and 2010.

Beat who? Evans? Sastre? Well, Sastre did the Giro in -09 and Evans totally failed peaking at the Tour. 2010 both Sastre and Evans did the Giro and Evans even fractured his arm during the Tour. Are you saying Armstrong was better than them just because he beat them at the Tour? And how is that even relevant to the discussion?

You can't include riders like that, everyone has to retire LOL.

I just used the same logic as noblis. He clamied none but AC should have won the Tour because AC is so dominant and I used the same logic saying much was gifted to AC because of the fact that so many riders was caught (or in Armstrongs case quit) during the years just before AC won his first Tour. So using the same logic, AC did not encounter the best cyclists, hence some of his GT-victories aren't rightfully earned.

Let's say Basso, Ullrich, Vino, Rasmussen, Landis wasn't caught and that Armstong never retired. Would AC have won all the races he has? Would he be a three time Tour winner? Who knows! Lance came back and finised third, as you so conviniently pointed out. If he hadn't retired he would have been much, much better and perhaps even better than AC, right?

Landis? The guy was never going to win a Tour again anymore after his hip surgery anyway.

The guy had a hip surgery berfore he claimed yellow in Paris?

Vino? Could never win a Tour, was beaten by Contador already in 2007. Also in 2010 again.

Due to crashes and the fact that he was caught and thrown of the race perhaps. Annihilated the field in the TT though. Who knows what a healthy Vion could have done?

Basso? Well, Contador has beaten him in the 2010 Tour and 2011 Tour. In fact, probably beaten him in about every stage race they ever encountered each other. In fact, Contador already beat him in the Vuelta a Castila y Leon in 2007 when they were riding for the same team

So you believe Cantador would have beaten a Basso a là -06 Giro because he beated him in Castila y Leon?

Ullrich? Dude was ancient old already anyway.

The dude who obliterated Canc in TdS weeks before the Tour? Yeah, he would probably lose all his climbing and TT abilities in less than a year.

I am not saying AC didn't earn his wins, but, I am saying that using the logic as noblis did is totally insane and it work both ways. If you are saying Evans and Sastres wins were giveaway, you have to admitt AC's was giveaways just as much. There is no denying fact that all of the big GC-names was eliminated just before or even during (the Tour) the time AC rose to "power". He never encounterd the "old kings". They all died in battle leaving AC to fight the likes of Evans, Sastre, Menchov and the even younger rider, Schleck.

 

[The Hitch]

Beat who? Evans? Sastre? Well, Sastre did the Giro in -09 and Evans totally failed peaking at the Tour. 2010 both Sastre and Evans did the Giro and Evans even fractured his arm during the Tour. Are you saying Armstrong was better than them just because he beat them at the Tour? And how is that even relevant to the discussion?

Armstrong did the Giro in 09.

 

[El Pistolero]

I'd argue that, too. Valverde has a better palmarès of stage races too.

Evans is a better GT rider, most definitely, that much is clear, but over short stage races Valverde's palmarès is Evans' equal if not slightly better in major one-week races, and smokes the Aussie's record in medium and minor ones.

It's just that the races where Evans holds the advantage are a bit more important.

No, he doesn't. Cadel Evans has 2 second places at the Tour and a victory.

And yes I think winning the Tour de France, T-A, Tour de Romandie twice, Settimana Coppi e Bartali and Tour of Austria twice is better than all of Valverde's stage race victories. Mostly because of the Tour though.

 

[Walkman]

Armstrong did the Giro in 09.

Not in the same way Satre did. He did it as training for the Tour. In my opinion that's a certain difference.

 

[scullster46]

If Basso wasn't caught we would still have robo-Basso and everyone would be dropped on slight inclines

 

[The Hitch]

The dude who obliterated Canc in TdS weeks before the Tour? Yeah, he would probably lose all his climbing and TT abilities in less than a year. .

Cancellara was losing to far weaker guys in that race, he was well off form. Or so I hear.

I think Ullrich would have been too old to beat Contador in 07, especially since Contador did a faster time up Plateau de Beille than either of Amrtrongs times and Lance was a better climber than Ullrich.

I do think though that Vino could have won the Tour that year, if he didnt crash.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Cancellara was losing to far weaker guys in that race, he was well off form. Or so I hear.

I think Ullrich would have been too old to beat Contador in 07, especially since Contador did a faster time up Plateau de Beille than either of Amrtrongs times and Lance was a better climber than Ullrich.

I do think though that Vino could have won the Tour that year, if he didnt crash.

I think Kloden would have had more of a chance to win than Vino.

 

[jens_attacks]

too bad our generation won't live enough to see the miracles of human clonation,too bad
in 70 years,our nephews, those b.astards will make again in the labs coppi,merckx,pantani of giro 1999,bahamontes,gaul,armstrong of 2004,santi perez of 2004,riis v1996,converbier,vino 2006,di luca 2007,schlecks 2017 and lots others.they will have lot of fun putting them to fight on a superb tour de france:clones version.imagine that.this shiit will be possible.it will be epic stuff.ligget and sherwen will make a special WCP of this thing!

 

[roundabout]

Ullrich and Vino are about the same age, Ullrich is probably a couple of months younger. Ullrich is undoubtedly a better GT rider than Vino.

And yet Ullrich would have been too old in 07 and Vino could have won.

Huh?

 

[Zam_Olyas]

too bad our generation won't live enough to see the miracles of human clonation,too bad
in 70 years,our nephews, those b.astards will make again in the labs coppi,merckx,pantani of giro 1999,bahamontes,gaul,armstrong of 2004,santi perez of 2004,riis v1996,converbier,vino 2006,di luca 2007,schlecks 2017 and lots others.they will have lot of fun putting them to fight on a superb tour de france:clones version.imagine that.this shiit will be possible.it will be epic stuff.ligget and sherwen will make a special WCP of this thing!

You are one funny dude...nutter

 

[The Hitch]

Ullrich and Vino are about the same age, Ullrich is probably a couple of months younger. Ullrich is undoubtedly a better GT rider than Vino.

And yet Ullrich would have been too old in 07 and Vino could have won.

Huh?

Ullrich was a much younger bloomer. He won the Tour when he was 24 years old, whereas Vino kept improving as his moved on in his 30's

Still, you are right. I was wrong about the ages. Ullrich could also have won the Tour in 2007 and possibly 2008.

By 2009 though he would have been too old.