Teams & Riders He's coming home!!!! Alejandro Valverde comeback thread.

[El Pistolero]

that's why he was clearly beaten by valverde.

He got beaten by Vinokourov and Kolobnev. Not by Valverde

Please, just watch the race instead of looking up the results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3rWBvlRLZM&feature=channel_video_title

Start with this

 

[c&cfan]

He got beaten by Vinokourov and Kolobnev. Not by Valverde

Please, just watch the race instead of looking up the results.

oh i watched it. i saw contador doing a great race, vino and kolobnev doing amazing team work until vino puts an awesome attack, and i saw valverde saying to gilbert:

"hey.. i am not only much faster, i am also smarter. by the way, p*ssy earring, i saw it when i was going past you".

 

[Ferminal]

He got beaten by Vinokourov and Kolobnev. Not by Valverde

Please, just watch the race instead of looking up the results.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3rWBvlRLZM&feature=channel_video_title

Start with this

Didn't Valverde sit on Gilbert & Evans most of the time? Then Valverde attacked on one of the final climbs but Gilbert was still able to match him and accelerate past.

 

[El Pistolero]

oh i watched it. i saw contador doing a great race, vino and kolobnev doing amazing team work until vino puts an awesome attack, and i saw valverde saying to gilbert:

"hey.. i am not only much faster, i am also smarter. by the way, p*ssy earring, i saw it when i was going past you".

Yeah, Contador did a great race, but Gilbert didn't

I'm not so sure you watched it actually. You probably didn't by listening to your race analyses.

 

[El Pistolero]

Didn't Valverde sit on Gilbert & Evans most of the time? Then Valverde attacked on one of the final climbs but Gilbert was still able to match him and accelerate past.

Yes, that's what happened(on Saint Nicholas). But apparently a little sprint at the end for third place is more important than everything that happened before that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHAgqYAYZOw

 

[c&cfan]

Yes, that's what happened(on Saint Nicholas). But apparently a little sprint at the end for third place is more important than everything that happened before that.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oHAgqYAYZOw

i thought that was the deal with races... results. ah pistolero, we really need you here.

 

[c&cfan]

Yeah, Contador did a great race, but Gilbert didn't

I'm not so sure you watched it actually. You probably didn't by listening to your race analyses.

yes he did.. he simply was not good enough.

 

[OlavEH]

yes.

why not?classics won't kill your body for months.
he "only" has to defeat gilbert and he has the right weapons (better TT, better sprinter, better climber) since 20 years old, he didn't become amazing at 26/27 for some "strange" reason.
so a) gilbert wins solo or sprint if valverde isn't there

b)gilbert does not win

at the tour:

he has no weapons for contador.
is he physically ready?
other stronger GC riders (this year)
no chance in hell.

I wouldn't bet on Valverde against Gilberg in a sprint. I belive that the Belgian is just as good as Valverde at in the type of short uphill sprint you find in the Ardennes Classics.

In addition i definitely wouldn't count on Valverde following Gilbert in the hills. Valverde doesn't have the same endurance as Gilbert and will have huge problems following if Gilbert attacks repeatedly as he often does.

 

[El Pistolero]

yes he did.. he simply was not good enough.

Gilbert was certainly good enough at LBL last year.

Not smart enough to win last year, that's what made him lose because he attacked too much.

This year he only used one acceleration to win his classics instead of the usual 2-5 like in the past.

You know the place where he made his winning move at San Sebastian this year? It's a very similar "hill" than the one Vino dropped Kolobnev on last year at LBL. If Valverde is still on his wheel there, he'll be dropped.

 

[c&cfan]

Gilbert was certainly good enough at LBL last year.

Not smart enough to win last year, that's what made him lose because he attacked too much.

This year he only used one acceleration to win his classics instead of the usual 2-5 like in the past.

=not good enough.

this year he magically can follow anyone and put the other gear that no one has. because we all know how it happens. at 27:
a) you are a musician star (hendrix kurt jim) and boooom.. dead.
b) you are cyclist and booommm.. you conquer the world. just like lance did.

 

[El Pistolero]

=not good enough.

this year he magically can follow anyone and put the other gear that no one has. because we all know how it happens. at 27:
a) you are a musician star (hendrix kurt jim) and boooom.. dead.
b) you are cyclist and booommm.. you conquer the world. just like lance did.

Yeah, and the guy who's sitting out a doping ban is clean

Do you even believe what you say all the time?

Gilbert didn't came out of nowhere, his last 4 seasons have been great.

Ps: Valverde is not good enough to win classics as well. His last was in 2008.

 

[Cimber]

And yet you think he can rival Gilbert in the Ardennes classics that take place 3-4 months earlier?

My point is not that he cant do a great Tour and maybe win a stage or 2. But after a long break I think that it takes longer to get your body to become ready for being able to produce consistantly well for 3weeks in a row. However, in the Ardennes he "just" have to hit that particular race on a high.

I.e. I think he can perform and possible win the big one day races, where as I predict that he wont be rdy to perform consistantly in the Tour for 3 weeks in a row.

 

[El Pistolero]

My point is not that he cant do a great Tour and maybe win a stage or 2. But after a long break I think that it takes longer to get your body to become ready for being able to produce consistantly well for 3weeks in a row. However, in the Ardennes he "just" have to hit that particular race on a high.

I.e. I think he can perform and possible win the big one day races, where as I predict that he wont be rdy to perform consistantly in the Tour for 3 weeks in a row.

He never was ready for that. It's possible, but if he'll have a good LBL he'll do a good Tour as well. Vino won LBL and did great at the Tour as a domestique plus won a stage and nearly won a second one. Of course he didn't do a great GC at the Tour, but since his come back he calls him self a one day racer instead of a GC contender.

 

[Panda Claws]

Gilbert has been the best at accelerating in the hills for 2-3 years now. He did not come out of nowhere.

Also he was the best at LBL 2010 just not the smartest.
Even Ferrari agrees

 

[The Hitch]

Gilbert has been the best at accelerating in the hills for 2-3 years now. He did not come out of nowhere.

Also he was the best at LBL 2010 just not the smartest.
Even Ferrari agrees

Vino was stronger in 2010 LBL. He also may have had the best acceleration. He dropped Kolobnev very easy after being in a 2 man break with him the for so long.

That him and Alexander managed to hold of the 3 big Ardennes riders shows just how strong those riders were.

As for Gilbert coming out of knowhere I think the point was that he came out of knowhere 3 or 4 years ago, not this year. He had some good results like GW but he hadnt challenged for LBL right up until 27 and then at 28 he suddenly comes 4th, then starts winning Lombardia, AGR and then becomes the best rider in the world.

It would be strange to see that improvement from a 21 year old turning 22, but in someone who is already in their late 20's wierd.

I guess hes just a late bloomer.

Also this year his FW performance came out of knowhere.

Yes he was a slient 5th last year but therese a big difference between that and then setting the fastest time ever up the climb while celebrating the last 100m.

 

[El Pistolero]

Vino was stronger in 2010 LBL. He also may have had the best acceleration. He dropped Kolobnev very easy after being in a 2 man break with him the for so long.

That him and Alexander managed to hold of the 3 big Ardennes riders shows just how strong those riders were.

As for Gilbert coming out of knowhere I think the point was that he came out of knowhere 3 or 4 years ago, not this year. He had some good results like GW but he hadnt challenged for LBL right up until 27 and then at 28 he suddenly comes 4th, then starts winning Lombardia, AGR and then becomes the best rider in the world.

It would be strange to see that improvement from a 21 year old turning 22, but in someone who is already in their late 20's wierd.

I guess hes just a late bloomer.

Also this year his FW performance came out of knowhere.

Yes he was a slient 5th last year but therese a big difference between that and then setting the fastest time ever up the climb while celebrating the last 100m.

I find it more suspicious when someone is already owning it at a very young age like Ricardo Ricco, Valverde, Andy Schleck, etc

Paolo Bettini was also a late bloomer and he's the guy Gilbert is most compared to.

When Paolo Bettini was 29 years old he had won 3 Monuments, just like Gilbert. He was 26 when he first won LBL, profiting from a strong team and the absence of Michele Bartoli and VDB. Gilbert was 27 when he first won Lombardia(and 2 Paris-Tours).

Gilbert rode for a small team and he only ever rode Lombardia once before he won it in 2009. Gilbert, before his Lotto days, was always in super shape in the early season and tired when the spring classics begun. In 2007 he also had a cancer lesion removed from his thigh. He also was on the podium already in Milan-San Remo at age 25, it was his attack on the Poggio that broke the peloton into pieces resulting in Cancellara's victory. In 2007 he was also strong already at Milan-San Remo, caught at the final km because Ricardo Ricco refused to co-operate with him. And back in his U23 days he was known as a super talent.

 

[Panda Claws]

Vino was stronger in 2010 LBL. He also may have had the best acceleration. He dropped Kolobnev very easy after being in a 2 man break with him the for so long.

That him and Alexander managed to hold of the 3 big Ardennes riders shows just how strong those riders were.

As for Gilbert coming out of knowhere I think the point was that he came out of knowhere 3 or 4 years ago, not this year. He had some good results like GW but he hadnt challenged for LBL right up until 27 and then at 28 he suddenly comes 4th, then starts winning Lombardia, AGR and then becomes the best rider in the world.

It would be strange to see that improvement from a 21 year old turning 22, but in someone who is already in their late 20's wierd.

I guess hes just a late bloomer.

Also this year his FW performance came out of knowhere.

Yes he was a slient 5th last year but therese a big difference between that and then setting the fastest time ever up the climb while celebrating the last 100m.

Yes Vino might indeed have been stronger.

The thing with Gilbert is and this has probably been said a lot of times is that he was actually supposed to be very very good but it never worked out that way. He did not get great results in his early career (unlike for example Boonen) but he made slow and steady progression anyway.

According to Phil himself he was not all that great in the beginning because he could do a lot of things but was not particulary good at something. Anyway, I do think that his victory at FW comes from the fact that it has been a slow edition this year with the favorites not attacking (or following Gilbert's attack) until very close to the finish. When that close to a finish Gilbert will win on even such steep inclines.

As for results in the Ardennes:

He was 16th at LBL and 19th at FW in 2007 (still during his FDJ years.)
Such results at 25 years old do show promise.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

In the Ardennes and often other perhaps less hilly races (such as stage 1 of the 2008 Tour), Valverde is very often a wheelsucker. Though one of his wins is from a group of 3, so he at least is smart enough to know which groups to be in, rather than just waiting for the bunch kick.

In stage races though, I don't really see how Valverde can be called a wheelsucker. Do we forget him helping to instigate an echelon attack in Paris-Nice? Going from way out on Mont Ventoux? Attacking to create a selection on stage 1 of País Vasco, thus eliminating Samuel Sánchez from contention? Sure, perhaps he wheelsucked through most of the key stages of his Vuelta win, but that's because he was winning. And he may have sucked Contador's wheel on Anglirú, but apart from J-Rod nobody else was capable of that, so it's an achievement in and of itself.

Valverde often makes races more fun. On the occasions where it's not because of what he himself does, but by forcing others to make it more entertaining because they have to do something because he'll beat you in the sprint.

 

[Nick C.]

Yes Vino might indeed have been stronger.

The thing with Gilbert is and this has probably been said a lot of times is that he was actually supposed to be very very good but it never worked out that way. He did not get great results in his early career (unlike for example Boonen) but he made slow and steady progression anyway.

According to Phil himself he was not all that great in the beginning because he could do a lot of things but was not particulary good at something. Anyway, I do think that his victory at FW comes from the fact that it has been a slow edition this year with the favorites not attacking (or following Gilbert's attack) until very close to the finish. When that close to a finish Gilbert will win on even such steep inclines.

As for results in the Ardennes:

He was 16th at LBL and 19th at FW in 2007 (still during his FDJ years.)
Such results at 25 years old do show promise.

He did have the two Het Volk wins which were both, I think, 20-30K solo moves from a reduced group of contenders. But at FDJ Gilbert always seemed to be one of those guys finishing 5th in the bunch sprints. He did come close to winning Paris Tours the year before he won it, but (surprise surprise) Pozatto wouldn't quite cooperate. I see it as maybe a slow progression and concentrating on what he does best.

 

[El Pistolero]

In the Ardennes and often other perhaps less hilly races (such as stage 1 of the 2008 Tour), Valverde is very often a wheelsucker. Though one of his wins is from a group of 3, so he at least is smart enough to know which groups to be in, rather than just waiting for the bunch kick.

In stage races though, I don't really see how Valverde can be called a wheelsucker. Do we forget him helping to instigate an echelon attack in Paris-Nice? Going from way out on Mont Ventoux? Attacking to create a selection on stage 1 of País Vasco, thus eliminating Samuel Sánchez from contention? Sure, perhaps he wheelsucked through most of the key stages of his Vuelta win, but that's because he was winning. And he may have sucked Contador's wheel on Anglirú, but apart from J-Rod nobody else was capable of that, so it's an achievement in and of itself.

Valverde often makes races more fun. On the occasions where it's not because of what he himself does, but by forcing others to make it more entertaining because they have to do something because he'll beat you in the sprint.

That still doesn't explain the fanboyism here for him. He's quite boring as a cyclist. And even in stage racing he results to wheelsucking a lot. The fact you use the same examples every time to explain Valverde is not a wheelsucker doesn't really help either (you've made this post a few times before).

 

[will10]

All this about Gilbert coming out of nowhere is wide of the mark. He's been a superstar in the making for years, you could see it way back in his FDJ days. Until this year he had a very "natural" progression that was promising....

 

[Libertine Seguros]

That still doesn't explain the fanboyism here for him. He's quite boring as a cyclist. And even in stage racing he results to wheelsucking a lot. The fact you use the same examples every time to explain Valverde is not a wheelsucker doesn't really help either (you've made this post a few times before).

They're the easiest ones off the top of my head, because most of them were actually successful.

And fanboyism for him? Before he got banned, I was ridiculed for even contemplating defending him. His every move drew vitriol.

But absence makes the heart grow fonder. A lot of races that he sometimes raced were pretty dull in 2011. They might not have been better had he been around, but having a guy with his credentials on the sideline means that many have unrealistic expectations of what he can do, borne out of wishful thinking. See the whole thing about challenging Gilbert. Valverde wouldn't have beaten Gilbert in 2011. Not at Amstel, not at Flèche, not at Liège, not at Donostia. But because Gilbert won so easily and people got bored of watching him stroll to victory so easily, with only one major contestant from the previous years being absent, then he is the one that many are looking to for salvation from the races being a parade for Gilbert again, since he already crushed all the other opposition.

It's wishful thinking, for sure. But we've found that whether Valverde made races more fun or not, many races without him have been disappointing, so many of us are overselling how good he is or how exciting he is based on several races during his ban being disappointing.

 

[The Hitch]

I find it more suspicious when someone is already owning it at a very young age like Ricardo Ricco, Valverde, Andy Schleck, etc

Surprise surprise, 3 riders you hate.

I wasnt saying it was suspicious anyway.

I just said that he made huge leaps deep in his 20's.

Funny though that you automatically guessed that I was saying its suspicious.

As for Bettini also being a late bloomer, yeah, so?

 

[El Pistolero]

Surprise surprise, 3 riders you hate.

I wasnt saying it was suspicious anyway.

I just said that he made huge leaps deep in his 20's.

Funny though that you automatically guessed that I was saying its suspicious.

As for Bettini also being a late bloomer, yeah, so?

Since when do I hate Ricardo Ricco and Valverde? Ricco and Valverde have been found guilty, me acknowledging that doesn't make me a hater.

I just don't care for the latter because of his wheelsucking tendencies, don't hate him.

Your whole post was around saying how it was suspicious(implicit). Please don't play the fool. I'm explaining how it wasn't a surprise at all to see Gilbert finally being able to perform well in Monuments in 2009. And then you come of with an argument of calling me a hater of Ricco and Valverde. Really? I can also include Tom Boonen in that list, does that ease your pain? I was just naming guys out of the top of my head who performed very well at early age and have been caught taking doping.

 

[The Hitch]

Your whole post was around saying how it was suspicious(implicit). Please don't play the fool. I'm explaining how it wasn't a surprise at all to see Gilbert finally being able to perform well in Monuments in 2009. And then you come of with an argument of calling me a hater of Ricco and Valverde. Really? I can also include Tom Boonen in that list, does that ease your pain? I was just naming guys out of the top of my head who performed very well at early age and have been caught taking doping.

No. The subject was Gilberts giant strides later in his career. I commented that I believe Gilbert did make unusual leaps later in his career.

That is my opinion. I never said it was suspicious. Would there be anyway I could make that comment without you thinking that I am accusing him?