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I noticed that his estimated distance at the 50 minute mark was 52.706 km. But he arrived at 52.937. This means that his average speed the last 10 minutes was 54,092 km/h (if my math is correct)! This makes me wonder if he was riding it too controlled from the start? Could he have cracked the 53 km mark if he'd be a bit more ambitious from the outset?
Bobridge and Larsson were much too fast with speeds at 54-55 km/h early in the race, while speeds were decreasing rapidly towards the end (even below 50 km/h). Dennis' record race was a bit like that too (although to a lesser extent). On the other hand Voigt's record race was a bit like Dowsett's: He seemed to have much left in the tank towards the end. Brändle's record race is perhaps the most even of the ones we've seen in this new era.
What's the best way to do an hour race? I know there isn't any definite answer to this, as it probably varies from rider to rider. But what's the best approach in theory?
Bobridge and Larsson were much too fast with speeds at 54-55 km/h early in the race, while speeds were decreasing rapidly towards the end (even below 50 km/h). Dennis' record race was a bit like that too (although to a lesser extent). On the other hand Voigt's record race was a bit like Dowsett's: He seemed to have much left in the tank towards the end. Brändle's record race is perhaps the most even of the ones we've seen in this new era.
What's the best way to do an hour race? I know there isn't any definite answer to this, as it probably varies from rider to rider. But what's the best approach in theory?
What's the best way to do an hour race? I know there isn't any definite answer to this, as it probably varies from rider to rider. But what's the best approach in theory?
This is the best pace. It will probably graph about the same as Boardman's 56 record.
This is the best pace. It will probably graph about the same as Boardman's 56 record.
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Re:
Get deep enough into the event at or slightly above the target so that you can then use what you have left in the tank in the final quarter to beat the record. If you are unable to do so in that final quarter, then you sure were not going to do so by starting harder.
Minimise variations in lap pace (accelerations are physiologically costly), and ride a very good line.
That's a subtly different strategy to what's needed to ride the maximal distance you can on the day. These objectives are not the same. They can coincide, but not necessarily.
e.g. Rominger in his first hour ride and Voigt used this strategy.
Given the objective was to beat the current record, then this strategy was perfect.el_angliru said:
Get deep enough into the event at or slightly above the target so that you can then use what you have left in the tank in the final quarter to beat the record. If you are unable to do so in that final quarter, then you sure were not going to do so by starting harder.
Minimise variations in lap pace (accelerations are physiologically costly), and ride a very good line.
That's a subtly different strategy to what's needed to ride the maximal distance you can on the day. These objectives are not the same. They can coincide, but not necessarily.
e.g. Rominger in his first hour ride and Voigt used this strategy.
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Not if he intends to break the hour record it's not. It would be a disastrous start, way too hard.Shame said:
Not a bad start for Wiggins, eh?
BTW - the second effort that day was much slower <54km/h and 30W less power.
"disasterous"
You don't get it. This was a 16 minute ride at 55 kph, not an hour ride.
From this I can calculate what his hour pace should be, based on his power curve.
This was just his first week of his hour preparation. If your goal is 54, you have to do some training over 54.
He was very consistent as well. This too is a big factor in success.
You don't get it. This was a 16 minute ride at 55 kph, not an hour ride.
From this I can calculate what his hour pace should be, based on his power curve.
This was just his first week of his hour preparation. If your goal is 54, you have to do some training over 54.
He was very consistent as well. This too is a big factor in success.
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Re:
Do you have his power curve?
I think I get it, which is why I also pointed out that his second 15km effort was significantly slower and at a lower power. I have coached and consulted on several successful hour record attempts, I have a little bit of an idea on this stuff.Shame said:
We can all make an estimate but there will be a range when extrapolating 16-min power out to one-hour power.Shame said:
Do you have his power curve?
You might but it is not necessary. In some cases such over speed training at the track can be detrimental. I'd prefer valuable track time be used for race pace execution practice - reinforcing good pacing and line riding habits. Fitness development work can be done elsewhere. Going too hard at the track is not good practice IMO.Shame said:
He was unable to do two 15km efforts consistently.Shame said:
It is really bizarre that you put down Wiggins 15K workout. It's the basic equivalent of Boardman's 56 kph world record pace. (Both Boardman and Wiggins agree that the Lotus with the Superman is at least 1 kph faster. I don't know how Wiggo fit on the bike but he's ridden it at full speed. When you suggest never riding over a one hour pace, I would severely question your skills as a coach. Alex went over his average toward the end of his effort. You don't do that without practice. Wiggins is one of the most consistent track riders. First, he was really in his lines for that run. Second, his lap times only varied by about 0.2 seconds. "Inconsistent"? Think again.
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He rode the Lotus bike in superman position for that first 15km run?Shame said:
That's what's bizarre. Why train on a bike and in a position you are unable to execute on the day? Bit of fun I suppose. Good for him.
I've never questioned Wiggins' track abilities. He will set a new world mark, by about 1km.
And I did not say one should never ride over one hour pace. I said that valuable track time is better spent on higher priority things, like race pace practice, tweaking one's position and aerodynamics, trialling different kit and clothing options, testing gearing options, understanding how you perform beyond 45 minutes from a fatigue, body position and ride line POV, refining the communications strategy between athlete and coach, riding on different days/conditions and checking how that impacts you on the day and gearing adjustments and so on. It's not well spent riding on a bike you can't use.
Supra threshold power work, if required, can be readily done elsewhere - use the track time for higher priorities that matter.
For an accomplisher pursuit rider, Wiggins doesn't need to learn how to ride faster than hour pace. He already knows how to ride faster. Any half decent trackie can ride faster for shorter durations. Alex rode faster at the end of his ride because he could - he had the energy to do so. It had nothing to do with some magical skill he practised that's required when you go > 53km/h. Heck even masters fattie riders go faster than that in team pursuits.
Even so, when doing multiple efforts >15 minutes, going too hard in the first one defeats the purpose of the session, provides little additional physiological benefit and indeed it can mean the balance of training for the day is compromised.
But if you are saying he was not even riding his own bike for that first 15km effort but an illegal bike, then perhaps his power was not too hard to begin with, and we should instead focus on his second effort 15km effort ridden at 53.X km/h as being more instructive of his form last week.
"He rode the Lotus bike in superman position for that first 15km run. "
No, he rode his hour bike. Again, you seem to get confused easily. Is English your primary language?
Wiggins once rode the Lotus in the superman position and found he could go much faster than his current bike. Why own the bike and not ride it at some point?) I think he wanted to see what speed on his bike would be the equivalent of doing 56 on Boardman's bike. It seems the only value in that would be to see if he can beat Boardman in theory at least. I mentioned before trying to equate Boardman's ride with today's bike and position. But, it is hard to be accurate since wattage changes with position, as Boardman stated that his wattage was lower in the Superman position but his speed was faster. At least Wiggins knows what is possible for his ride (if he can hour as good as Boardman.)
"I've never questioned Wiggins' track abilities."
You did question his training when you said training at 55 kph was foolish and I called you out on that. It may boil down to opinion. I know it works.
"Wiggins doesn't need to learn how to ride faster than hour pace."
Of course he does. Look at AD's ride. A good chunk of it was over the 52.9 pace. If you only train at 53, you will struggle to do 53.5-54. You won't even know how long you could sustain it. I thought AD's coach did a great job of slowing him down went his speed started to spike too much at the 50 minute mark. I've been there and it is tough not to roll too fast at that point.
"we should instead focus on his second effort "
By your reasoning, should we focus on his warm-up or cool-down?
How many time trials (beside tail-winds and negative elevations) for ten miles have averaged over 55 kph? (excluding those caught doping)
No, he rode his hour bike. Again, you seem to get confused easily. Is English your primary language?
Wiggins once rode the Lotus in the superman position and found he could go much faster than his current bike. Why own the bike and not ride it at some point?) I think he wanted to see what speed on his bike would be the equivalent of doing 56 on Boardman's bike. It seems the only value in that would be to see if he can beat Boardman in theory at least. I mentioned before trying to equate Boardman's ride with today's bike and position. But, it is hard to be accurate since wattage changes with position, as Boardman stated that his wattage was lower in the Superman position but his speed was faster. At least Wiggins knows what is possible for his ride (if he can hour as good as Boardman.)
"I've never questioned Wiggins' track abilities."
You did question his training when you said training at 55 kph was foolish and I called you out on that. It may boil down to opinion. I know it works.
"Wiggins doesn't need to learn how to ride faster than hour pace."
Of course he does. Look at AD's ride. A good chunk of it was over the 52.9 pace. If you only train at 53, you will struggle to do 53.5-54. You won't even know how long you could sustain it. I thought AD's coach did a great job of slowing him down went his speed started to spike too much at the 50 minute mark. I've been there and it is tough not to roll too fast at that point.
"we should instead focus on his second effort "
By your reasoning, should we focus on his warm-up or cool-down?
How many time trials (beside tail-winds and negative elevations) for ten miles have averaged over 55 kph? (excluding those caught doping)
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To answer the above question.....in the UK only oneShame said:
that I am aware of: last year Mr. Alex Dowsett did 17
min 20 sec for the British 10 mile tt record.
And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends.
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I speak and write English just fine thanks.Shame said:
I asked for clarification about the bike used because the way you referred to it before implied the reason he went that quick in his first 15km run was he was riding the Lotus/Superman:
But you have clarified that you meant at an earlier time, not during this session, thanks.Shame said:
So IOW he simply rode too hard, and couldn't back it up for the second 15km effort.
Boardman still managed ~440W for his superman hour ride. I don't think it buggered up his power all that much. He was however very aerodynamic. I've only tested 3 riders with aerodynamics in his range. We know it would have required a power to CdA ratio in the vicinity of 2400+W/m^2.Shame said:
Not sure I'd take much from Wiggins riding on that bike - as you point out it would not have fit properly and not been much of a comparison.
That's not questioning his abilities, but rather the strategy of riding too hard. Even the best do it and no matter how you spin it, it's a mistake.Shame said:
Going 0.1 sec/lap too quick on race day is a mistake, let alone 1km/h faster. 0.1 sec/lap is 8W at Wiggin's power and pace. Going 55 instead of 54 is a 25W error and that can be very costly.
His coach did a fine job of keeping him in check, and Alex did a fine job of trusting his coach. I've definitely been there with a head strong athlete who had failed an hour attempt badly before I got my hands on him and sorted out his pacing.Shame said:
No idea what warmups have to do with anything - that's just a red herring. Nor 10-mile TTs for that matter. This is a track record, not a road one. Whilst there is overlap with physiology and the physics, there are many differences and specific issues for a track hour that require attention compared with a road TT.Shame said:
My point was he did 2 (TWO) x 15km effort that day, not just one.
He was unable to sustain the high pace of his first effort during his second effort. Indeed he was unable to sustain even his target hour pace for his second 15km effort. That's what happens when you go too hard in your first effort. You can't back it up.
Now it's amazing he can ride that quick.
He will set a new record for sure barring any technical problems or illness.
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Hard to sensibly compare UK road TT pace with indoor track pace. Too many variables outdoors - road surface, variability in gradient, wind of course, but mostly the massive impact traffic has on air flow, effectively creating a permanent tailwind.oldcrank said:
Good point, that could well be the case.oldcrank said:Shame said:And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends.
Bit obnoxious there brad
Talking to The Times - and reflecting on fellow Brit Alex Dowsett's new world record for the hour of 52.937 kilometres, set in Manchester last week - Wiggins said: "It sounds a bit horrible to say, but I think I could break the record tomorrow.
"But I don't just want to break it, I want to put it right up there, as far out of reach as I can."
Talking to The Times - and reflecting on fellow Brit Alex Dowsett's new world record for the hour of 52.937 kilometres, set in Manchester last week - Wiggins said: "It sounds a bit horrible to say, but I think I could break the record tomorrow.
"But I don't just want to break it, I want to put it right up there, as far out of reach as I can."
And, without entering into the discussion/argument
of the last few posts, I think it might be that Sir Brad's
first 15 km interval (documented above) was as much
about his 10 mile tt next week as it was about his Hour
attempt in June. But I could be wrong, my friends.
Of course he is. Thanks for joining my discussion. I guess some people only feel good about themselves when they trolll, argue, and proclaim their 'abilities'. He doesn't get why Wiggins rode at 55 kph, and he's a coach? Wig has done a lot at 54 this week and appears he could ride 54 tomorrow if he wanted. Who really cares what his third interval was after such a display? first he says he must have used an illegal bike to ride at 55 (what?), then he says Wig should be embarrassed that he didn't do two of those efforts in a row at 55. I think this demonstrates how hard it is to find a coach who really knows how to train. I guess the mess is partly my fault for not being able to ignore something stupid. I always have to correct it.
It was nice to hear Dowsett say he will at some point try to beat whatever number Wiggins puts up. Obree must have smiled when he heard that. May 16 is the time trial. I hope the weather is good.
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