How dirty is SaxoBank-Tinkoff?

[Dr. Juice]

Basso is on a steady decline, has been for a few years. Its obvious.
Only one thing can make him competitive again: blood and EPO doping.

Thats the only reason the clowns at Tinkoff signed him. They hope he gets back on the juice program.

All the talk of motivation and training is just nonsense. You have to be naive, dumb or a hopeless fan to believe in that.

Why do you call me a dumb fan? I said I suppose Basso is not clean right now. And Saxo gets him back on a more sophisticated program. This will help to get some performance back.
But if you think they just have to fuel him and he goes 2006 again, you're naive.
Is he on less dope than in 2010 or in the Vuelta 2013? No, hence he has had a bad winter from a training point of view. Motivation is also a factor.

If he puts together a better medical program, better training than in 13/14 and finds the motivation to work his a** off, he will get back to a solid level.

You sound as if you just fuel an unmotivated rider with stuff, who doesn't train properly, and he will fly. Too simple minded.

Basso is still on the same juice as when he won in 2010 or climbed very good last year in the Vuelta. Hence other factors must be considered. Of course if Tinkoff have a better doping program, it will help a lot. Hell yeah hopefully they fuel him for good.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Why do you call me a dumb fan? I said I suppose Basso is not clean right now. And Saxo gets him back on a more sophisticated program. This will help to get some performance back.
But if you think they just have to fuel him and he goes 2006 again, you're naive.
Is he on less dope than in 2010 or in the Vuelta 2013? No, hence he has had a bad winter from a training point of view. Motivation is also a factor.

If he puts together a better medical program, better training than in 13/14 and finds the motivation to work his a** off, he will get back to a solid level.

You sound as if you just fuel an unmotivated rider with stuff, who doesn't train properly, and he will fly. Too simple minded.

Basso is still on the same juice as when he won in 2010 or climbed very good last year in the Vuelta. Hence other factors must be considered. Of course if Tinkoff have a better doping program, it will help a lot. Hell yeah hopefully they fuel him for good.

I said naive, dumb or hopeless fan. You can choose which one.

Basso is a mediocre rider who needs serious doping to perform. Blood and Epo etc.

He will fit nicely into the Tinkoff/Riis regime. Look me into the eyes and tell me you will turn up in perfect form type of thing.

So yes, I agree Basso can be competitive, it just requires lots of doping.

 

[inri2000]

I said naive, dumb or hopeless fan. You can choose which one.

Basso is a mediocre rider who needs serious doping to perform. Blood and Epo etc.

He will fit nicely into the Tinkoff/Riis regime. Look me into the eyes and tell me you will turn up in perfect form type of thing.

So yes, I agree Basso can be competitive, it just requires lots of doping.

You are the naive one or very biased if you think doping is more prevalent on Tinkoff Saxo than other teams.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

You are the naive one or very biased if you think doping is more prevalent on Tinkoff Saxo than other teams.

and just where in your fantasy world did you come up with this conclusion?

 

[inri2000]

What a fantastically well reasoned argument based on facts, well done Sir, you are a gentleman and a scholar

and just where in your fantasy world did you come up with this conclusion?

 

[Dr. Juice]

and just where in your fantasy world did you come up with this conclusion?

With reasonable thinking. If you believe 1 team is clean the other fueled to the brim, you will fall at some point in time. Especially if it's a whole team you support. Dope levels are within acceptable limits today, which doesn't mean it's not cheating, but at least they don't risk their health every day like 10-20 years ago.
Jumping from 1 team to another, which has a better program, helps a bit but it doesn't make you go 1 watt/ kg faster. You're blind if you think Basso was on less dope now that he is slow than when he was winning.
You seem to think every little change in performance from a rider MUST be explained by doping, even if they stay in the same team for years.

Wake up.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You're blind if you think Basso was (is?) on less dope now that he is slow than when he was winning.

Wait what?

Can you explain the mechanics of what you are trying to say here? I am missing some salient information, clearly, because to me it makes little to no sense.

 

[inri2000]

With reasonable thinking. If you believe 1 team is clean the other fueled to the brim, you will fall at some point in time. Especially if it's a whole team you support. Dope levels are within acceptable limits today, which doesn't mean it's not cheating, but at least they don't risk their health every day like 10-20 years ago.
Jumping from 1 team to another, which has a better program, helps a bit but it doesn't make you go 1 watt/ kg faster. You're blind if you think Basso was on less dope now that he is slow than when he was winning.
You seem to think every little change in performance from a rider MUST be explained by doping, even if they stay in the same team for years.

Wake up.

I'm assuming he lives in a black and white world without any shades of gray.

 

[Dr. Juice]

I'm assuming he lives in a black and white world without any shades of gray.

Yeah it pretty much looks like that.


@ Dear Wiggo

Did not type correctly. IS of course. I'm not a native speaker but I try my best.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

@ Dear Wiggo

Did not type correctly. IS of course. I'm not a native speaker but I try my best.

I assumed you meant is - the is / was wording was not my confusion.

You're saying: You're blind if you think Basso is on less dope now that he is slow than when he was winning.

Which sounds like:

X dope now = slow Basso
X dope in the past = winning Basso

ie for the same amount of dope he has gone from a winning rider at the Giro to an also ran?

Which seems an unusual position. Could you explain a bit more why you believe this?

 

[inri2000]

I think he means the same amount of dope compared to the other riders.

I assumed you meant is - the is / was wording was not my confusion.

You're saying: You're blind if you think Basso is on less dope now that he is slow than when he was winning.

Which sounds like:

X dope now = slow Basso
X dope in the past = winning Basso

ie for the same amount of dope he has gone from a winning rider at the Giro to an also ran?

Which seems an unusual position. Could you explain a bit more why you believe this?

 

[djpbaltimore]

You are the naive one or very biased if you think doping is more prevalent on Tinkoff Saxo than other teams.

The results paint a slightly different picture. After an average year by Contador's lofty standards in 2013, he dominates the circuit until his untimely crash in the TDF. Is that due to increased doping or other means? I don't know, but it doesn't require a naive or biased observer to ask that question.

Despite a hard Giro, Majka has an outstanding TDF and continues his great form to Poland and now Colorado. Add the fact that Rogers is now winning multiple road races in a season for the first time in his life and it all looks a bit suspicious. TS might not be the most doped team in the sport, but I think they are amongst the contenders for that unenviable crown.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Despite a hard Giro, Majka has an outstanding TDF and continues his great form to Poland and now Colorado. Add the fact that Rogers is now winning races for the first time in his life and it all looks a bit suspicious. TS might not be the most doped team in the sport, but I think they are amongst the contenders for that unenviable crown.

*cough*second time*cough*

Remember the Sky train in 2012?

 

[djpbaltimore]

*cough*second time*cough*

Remember the Sky train in 2012?

I forgot about all those GT stage wins he personally picked up in 2012. Ohh.... that's right.. he didn't win any. I don't see the logic of your argument. He transferred from one majorly doped team to another.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

I forgot about all those GT stage wins he personally picked up in 2012. Ohh.... that's right.. he didn't win any. I don't see the logic of your argument. He transferred from one majorly doped team to another.

We've gone from,

Add the fact that Rogers is now winning races for the first time in his life

as a means to dump on Tinkov Saxo. Point out that he was in fact winning races and scoring big on the circuit back in 2012 with SKy - proving it's the rider not necessarily the team, and it changes to

GT stage wins

one post later!

How am I meant to keep up if you shift the goal posts so quickly?

Here's a quick run down of his relative performance - Sky years trumping Saxo by a large margin (100%): http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=114

And he won Bayern-Rundfahrt and came 2nd at the Dauphine in 2012.

Mick Rogers is more likely "winning" at Tinkov due to what he learnt at Sky.

I also wonder if the others are riding as well thanks to the lessons he picked up whilst there also.

 

[djpbaltimore]

We've gone from,

Add the fact that Rogers is now winning races for the first time in his life

as a means to dump on Tinkov Saxo. Point out that he was in fact winning races and scoring big on the circuit back in 2012 with SKy - proving it's the rider not necessarily the team, and it changes to

GT stage wins

one post later!

How am I meant to keep up if you shift the goal posts so quickly?

Here's a quick run down of his relative performance - Sky years trumping Saxo by a large margin (100%): http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=114

And he won Bayern-Rundfahrt and came 2nd at the Dauphine in 2012.

Mick Rogers is more likely "winning" at Tinkov due to what he learnt at Sky.

I also wonder if the others are riding as well thanks to the lessons he picked up whilst there also.

What wins did Rogers have in 2012? He didn't have a single race victory. GT or not. Those are facts. If I had wanted to say GC or TT, I would have said that. Maybe you should read my posts for what they say and not what you want them to say.

I assume you think SKY is at the forefront of doping. Yet he moves to a team and gets better results and that team should be immune from suspicions? OK, YMMV, but I don't agree. And suggesting that anybody would trade 3 GT wins for a 2nd place at the Dauphine and his other SKY results is ludicrous IMO.

My point from my original post still stands. It doesn't take a naive or biased person to question TS after their results in 2014.

 

[LaFlorecita]

You are trying way too hard Dear Wiggo. Just take a deep breath and relax. What wins did Rogers have in 2012? He didn't have a single race victory. GT or not. Those are facts. If I had wanted to say GC or TT, I would have said that. Maybe you should read my posts for what they say and not what you want them to say.

I assume you think SKY is at the forefront of doping. Yet he moves to a team and gets better results and that team should be immune from suspicions? OK, YMMV, but I don't agree. And suggesting that anybody would trade 3 GT wins for a 2nd place at the Dauphine and his other SKY results is ludicrous IMO.

My point from my original post still stands. It doesn't take a naive or biased person to question TS after their results in 2014.

did you not read Dear Wiggo's post or does Bayern Rundfahrt not count as a race?

 

[LaFlorecita]

It doesn't take a naive or biased person to question TS after their results in 2014.

They are performing as they should with the riders they have.

 

[djpbaltimore]

did you not read Dear Wiggo's post or does Bayern Rundfahrt not count as a race?

Race wins means crossing the finish line first. That is why I mentioned TT and GC later in my post.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Race wins means crossing the finish line first. That is why I mentioned TT and GC later in my post.

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=22617

 

[djpbaltimore]

http://cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/race.asp?raceid=22617

My bad. You were right about that. I thought he had just won the TT stage. My apologies.

 

[IndianCyclist]

We've gone from,

Add the fact that Rogers is now winning races for the first time in his life

Mick Rogers is more likely "winning" at Tinkov due to what he learnt at Sky.

I also wonder if the others are riding as well thanks to the lessons he picked up whilst there also.

Its called "The Clenbuterol Effect" and soon others will also learn

 

[Dear Wiggo]

You are trying way too hard Dear Wiggo. Just take a deep breath and relax.

Nope, don't have to try at all to counter your claims. Candy from a baby in fact.

What wins did Rogers have in 2012? He didn't have a single race victory. GT or not. Those are facts. If I had wanted to say GC or TT, I would have said that. Maybe you should read my posts for what they say and not what you want them to say.

Bayern-Rundfahrt is a race. He won it. That you can't accept it's a race is immaterial to the cold, hard, fact that it is in fact a race, and that he won it.

I assume you think SKY is at the forefront of doping.

They are certainly at the forefront of not testing positive.

Yet he moves to a team and gets better results and that team should be immune from suspicions?

So I have to guess your definition of race is anything that isn't GC-related, but when it comes to my argument, you lump in a whole "Dear Wiggo is saying TS are immune from suspicion" based on evidence of Rogers having twice as many CQ points with Sky as he does with Tinkov?

Goodness. The irony is delicious.

Here, for your edification is how I feel: the top 5 teams on CQ are pretty much doping as well as each other this year and most of last.

They are not suspicious, they are all guilty.

OK, YMMV, but I don't agree. And suggesting that anybody would trade 3 GT wins for a 2nd place at the Dauphine and his other SKY results is ludicrous IMO.

Rogers scored more points. Points are what a dom trades for salary. Points and usefulness beyond being a good workhorse. Noone is hiring Rogers to win races. Noone. They hire him to be a road captain and a good domestique. And to get points. And his last 2 years at Tinkov have so far netted him 50% of his last 2 years at Sky points.

Further more, he only won a stage at the Tour because the team had no GC leader. Otherwise he would be emptying himself for his team leader.

 

[Dear Wiggo]

As an Aussie I am particularly interested in what my countrymen (and women!!) do out on the pro circuit.

In 2012, when I read and heard (on SBS) Rogers was putting out his best power since he was at the AIS, and the lightest he had been since he was 16 years of age, it stuck in my mind like a big, flashing, neon red sign. Something was way, way out of kilter.

Taxus4All will tell you that warming down, ice baths and um some other revolutionary method was the source of this miracle, but uh. No. Just no.

Rogers is going well at TS, yes. No question, but I believe he learnt the new way back at the Sky camp, and just kept the lessons with him.

 

[djpbaltimore]

The results paint a slightly different picture. After an average year by Contador's lofty standards in 2013, he dominates the circuit until his untimely crash in the TDF. Is that due to increased doping or other means? I don't know, but it doesn't require a naive or biased observer to ask that question.

Despite a hard Giro, Majka has an outstanding TDF and continues his great form to Poland and now Colorado. Add the fact that Rogers is now winning multiple road races in a season for the first time in his life and it all looks a bit suspicious. TS might not be the most doped team in the sport, but I think they are amongst the contenders for that unenviable crown.

As noted above, I did not have the facts correct, so I amended my original post. My apologies to you as well Dear Wiggo. I also have deleted the first sentences of my response because it was more inflammatory than necessary.

As an Aussie I am particularly interested in what my countrymen (and women!!) do out on the pro circuit.

In 2012, when I read and heard (on SBS) Rogers was putting out his best power since he was at the AIS, and the lightest he had been since he was 16 years of age, it stuck in my mind like a big, flashing, neon red sign. Something was way, way out of kilter.

Taxus4All will tell you that warming down, ice baths and um some other revolutionary method was the source of this miracle, but uh. No. Just no.

Rogers is going well at TS, yes. No question, but I believe he learnt the new way back at the Sky camp, and just kept the lessons with him.

Understood. I think we are mostly in agreement about doping in the sport and just arguing at the margins. Rogers' was in limbo for the early part of the season so I think his CQ points in 2014 are not completely indicative of the season he has had, but YMMV.