How many GTs has Alberto Contador won?

[Walkman]

Who care if people thinks it should be 5 or 7? You didn't saw me whine about it in the last trolling attempt we've had. Dont like hypocrites though who acts as if they like the rider (Luigi) but takes every opportunity to discredit a rider and even starts a thread about it. Its comparable to hypocrites like Walkman who use anti-doping as a shield but are only angry on Contador for it and defends Rasmussen in the same breath.

What?! Please show me where I defended Rasmussen, please!

I was just stating the facts. I loathe dopers. Contador happens to be one of them. So is Vino, Basso, Valverde, Ricco, di Luca, Rasmussen and many others.

You Contador fans are unbelievable.

 

[Netserk]

What?! Please show me where I defended Rasmussen, please!

I was just stating the facts. I loathe dopers. Contador happens to be one of them. So is Vino, Basso, Valverde, Ricco, di Luca, Rasmussen and many others.

You Contador fans are unbelievable.

Many are, but far from everyone. Generalizations rarely help. I don't think you are a hypocrite and I don't think I have called you names, but I am also a Contador fan.

 

[SeriousSam]

If you want to know the official records, google them. It's 5.


If it's not a victory unless it was done clean, the answer is 0. Yes, 0, not 5. I can't fathom how someone like LUIGI_MAX could possibly think Contador won 5 GTs if he doesn't want to count GTs that involved PED use in preparation or competition because dirty cheating is so bad.

 

[Walkman]

Many are, but far from everyone. Generalizations rarely help. I don't think you are a hypocrite and I don't think I have called you names, but I am also a Contador fan.

Yeah, you are right, my bad. Some Contador fan are.

 

[Dr. Juice]

If you want to know the official records, google them. It's 5.


If it's not a victory unless it was done clean, the answer is 0. Yes, 0, not 5. I can't fathom how someone like LUIGI_MAX could possibly think Contador won 5 GTs if he doesn't want to count GTs that involved PED use in preparation or competition because dirty cheating is so bad.

If you use that logic, nobody since LeMond 1990 has won a GT. No Ullrich, no Pantani, no Armstrong, no Heras, no Nibali, no Froome, no Contador, no Wiggins.

It's plain obvious why nobody who had the victory handed by the CAS did not cry and said " I was robbed, he cheated" .

Clenbuterol isn't used anymore, has close to zero performance benefit, and absolutely zero in that quantity, which was confirmed by all experts in the trial. If you read the sentence, it's practically laughable because they claim there is no direct proof of a ) performance benefit b) blood doping involved.

It's like at the criminal court when the judge says " Well, there is a possibility he has done that, but it's also possible he didn't do that.... sentence 2 years "
No court in the world would work like that.

But in the end, it's all how you feel. If it makes you feel better, more " I am on the good side " , then it's fine , feel like it's 0 or 5.
For me, Armstrong has won 7 GT's ( even if I think he is of piece of ****) etc etc.

It's all about how someone feels. So there is not a definitive answer on this matter, and we can not force anybody into a different view. Thus the thread can be closed.

EDIT: about the " how you feel part" : We go into our memory and think about the 2010 TdF. How the mountain stages whent...then we remember the Contador- Schleck battle. We don't remember Schleck dominating and having no opponent. When we think about the 2011 Giro we don't remember the great Scarponi- Nibali battle. That is why I can not understand why somebody "feels" like Scarponi 2011 has won it, and believes Scarponi was robbed. Or feel like Schleck was robbed and raced "against a doped rider".

 

[LaFlorecita]

Also: Contador hasn't won as many GTs as Armstrong; he's won five more.

Both have won 7

 

[SeriousSam]

If you use that logic, nobody since LeMond 1990 has won a GT. No Ullrich, no Pantani, no Armstrong, no Heras, no Nibali, no Froome, no Contador, no Wiggins.

Indeed.


To me, Armstrong and Contador have both won 7 but I note that had Rasmussen not been withdrawn but later been officially deprived of his win, I'd say 6. Contador was lucky to get the 2007 Tour.


What I wanted to point out is that if you truly believe a victory shouldn't count if prep/competition involved PED use, then he won 0. Not 5. To claim it's 5 is to ignore decisive evidence of PED use for no good reason at all. Positives are the arbiters of sanctions, not what we should believe about PED use. Hence if the question is about how many GTs we believe AC won, and you purport to accept victories only if it didn't involve cheating, your answer should be 0, not 5. Prior to the reasoned decision, the answer for Armstrong should have been 0, not 7.

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Contador continues to be a chemical experiment.
The palmares is irrelevant.

 

[hrotha]

IThat is why I can not understand why somebody "feels" like Scarponi 2011 has won it, and believes Scarponi was robbed.

Whoa, hold on a second. Those two are completely different and separate notions.

Scarponi won it. He's as much of a cheat as Contador.

 

[Dr. Juice]

Whoa, hold on a second. Those two are completely different and separate notions.

Scarponi won it. He's as much of a cheat as Contador.

Yeah, but then nobody won it. And nobody won since 1990. And nobody will win in the future. Until there is a miracle and all forms of EPO are detectable even in small amounts, making it impossible to take it regularly.
The problem is that EPO won't go away ever again. Before EPO came into play, Hormones and Corticoids gave a small advantage which one could easily overcome with training or talent. Since EPO it's impossible. You have to fight for a Top 10 clean, but in the knowledge that everybody around uses EPO and you could go from Top 10 to dominate GT's ( or from average to a Top 10 rider) the choice is 98 % of the time EPO.
At least they have reduced the amounts the riders can take without getting caught.

 

[Granville57]

Eleven pages so far on this? Seriously?

 

[peloton]

Not the point.

Is this not trolling?

Not to me, no.

I despise LA, but he did win the 7 Tours, that's what I saw and the USADA ruling won't change that.

 

[hrotha]

Yeah, but then nobody won it. And nobody won since 1990. And nobody will win in the future. Until there is a miracle and all forms of EPO are detectable even in small amounts, making it impossible to take it regularly.
The problem is that EPO won't go away ever again. Before EPO came into play, Hormones and Corticoids gave a small advantage which one could easily overcome with training or talent. Since EPO it's impossible. You have to fight for a Top 10 clean, but in the knowledge that everybody around uses EPO and you could go from Top 10 to dominate GT's ( or from average to a Top 10 rider) the choice is 98 % of the time EPO.
At least they have reduced the amounts the riders can take without getting caught.

No, I don't think nobody won it. Scarponi won it. That he's also a cheat is not here or there, because he's the winner as per the rules. I'm not advocating leaving the palmares blank by stripping suspected dopers, but if you're caught, and you're stripped of your result as per the rules, then you're gone. It's very simple, really.

Not to me, no.

I despise LA, but he did win the 7 Tours, that's what I saw and the USADA ruling won't change that.

So saying everybody who disagrees is a hater with an axe to grind is not trolling. K.

 

[Luigi_Max_Again]

I am back.

The simple fact is that Contador has won 5 GTs according to the offical results.

Finishing first in a race while cheating is not winning, it is cheating and deceiving everyone to that fact. The only real winners are those who do not cheat.

 

[Andynonomous]

I am back.

The simple fact is that Contador has won 5 GTs according to the offical results.

Finishing first in a race while cheating is not winning, it is cheating and deceiving everyone to that fact. The only real winners are those who do not cheat.

So, it ain't cheatin, if ya don't get caught.

 

[Futuroscope]

Yeah, but then nobody won it. And nobody won since 1990. And nobody will win in the future. Until there is a miracle and all forms of EPO are detectable even in small amounts, making it impossible to take it regularly.
The problem is that EPO won't go away ever again. Before EPO came into play, Hormones and Corticoids gave a small advantage which one could easily overcome with training or talent. Since EPO it's impossible. You have to fight for a Top 10 clean, but in the knowledge that everybody around uses EPO and you could go from Top 10 to dominate GT's ( or from average to a Top 10 rider) the choice is 98 % of the time EPO.
At least they have reduced the amounts the riders can take without getting caught.

Yes, but what we (or I at least) don't know is how widespread blood bags where before the EPO era. It's true that corticos and AAS can only do so much during a stage race but what about blood bag use during the 80s? There are still question marks around this issue.

 

[Luigi_Max_Again]

So, it ain't cheatin, if ya don't get caught.

How on earth do you reach that conclusion?
Of course doping is cheating whether you get caught or not. Just because you get away with it does not make it any better.

 

[Futuroscope]

To me all victories count as long as you don't buy a race or cheat like for example the italians did at the giro in 1984 (or similar things).

I would only call doping cheating in a world where you could guarantee zero doping. Of course, not all doping is equal. Armstrong was for example allowed to/could do things that others couldn't, this is one reason I think he is a joke (although he won 7 TDFs).

 

[spanky wanderlust]

I am back.

The simple fact is that Contador has won 5 GTs according to the offical results.

Finishing first in a race while cheating is not winning, it is cheating and deceiving everyone to that fact. The only real winners are those who do not cheat.

as many people have pointed out, it's not a 'simple' fact.

he won the 2011 giro outright. that is a simple fact. a complex fact is that while he won on the road he was stripped officially of the title due to a prior, unrelated offense.

a truly complicated fact is that his own teammate was cleared of the exact same offense, with the same legal defense, just this year, rendering alberto's ban completely farcical in the eyes of many.

i'm just trying to show you the difference btwn simple and complex. alberto's case is not simple.

imo, he won 7 gts. i respect other people's right to believe he won 5. i don't think that makes them 'idiots'.

 

[hrotha]

a truly complicated fact is that his own teammate was cleared of the exact same offense, with the same legal defense, just this year, rendering alberto's ban completely farcical in the eyes of many.

No he didn't.

Come on, don't pretend the EU is the same as China with regards to contaminated meat.

 

[Luigi_Max_Again]

as many people have pointed out, it's not a 'simple' fact.

he won the 2011 giro outright. that is a simple fact. a complex fact is that while he won on the road he was stripped officially of the title due to a prior, unrelated offense.

a truly complicated fact is that his own teammate was cleared of the exact same offense, with the same legal defense, just this year, rendering alberto's ban completely farcical in the eyes of many.

i'm just trying to show you the difference btwn simple and complex. alberto's case is not simple.

imo, he won 7 gts. i respect other people's right to believe he won 5. i don't think that makes them 'idiots'.

Your post makes me want to cry. I despair.

 

[Afrank]

This thread will have to be closed.