If you were in their shoes, would you dope? Poll

[forty four]

the poll should have an im not sure im not in the situation option. me if i knew not thought everyone else was doping i would likely do so as well i would not consider it cheating at that point. if i was certain everyone else was doping as well it would simply be needed at that point to keep my job. if in all are current jobs that support our lives our families lives etc... we would all do a lot not to be out of work. my biggest concern would be the negative health effects of various peds. with supplements i will take anything i feel gives me an edge not quite doping but i can see how it would begin.

 

[forty four]

rhubromas post is quite accurate it is the way of sport has been since the gladiators. fans like watching people brutalize each other in sport but then dont like the reality of what comes along with it.

 

[Escarabajo]

... I reluctantly voted yes, ....
My 2 cents, I'm rarely ever in this part of the forum, too depressing.

This is confusing somehow.

It is hard to accept reality.

 

[3rdWheel]

rhubromas post is quite accurate it is the way of sport has been since the gladiators. fans like watching people brutalize each other in sport but then dont like the reality of what comes along with it.

I can agree also with rhubromas. A cousin of mine played pro football (U.S.) for 10 years. Those guys take all types of shots/medication and crap to stay on the field. And there's a ton of pressure for them to do it, that's just the legal stuff. There's no way I could do it legal or illegal drugs even for all that money because you pay the price of your health in the end. Look at all the studies about concussions causing dementia with those athletes or 2-3 knee replacements. It's crazy. I'm so glad I blew out my knee so I didn't have to make the choice. I still say I'd just quit.

 

[biokemguy]

haven't cheated yet

I could only answer the question based on my behavior so far in life. I haven't cheated to get my current job, or any previous job so I would have to assume that I wouldn't dope as a pro athlete.

I'm not surrounded by people who I think are cheating to get ahead, so the peer pressure aspect isn't there. It's hard to predict how one would react under different circumstances. When I was in school I knew people cheated, but it wasn't obvious that they were getting more benefit from cheating than I was through honest work.

 

[ChrisE]

I can agree also with rhubromas. A cousin of mine played pro football (U.S.) for 10 years. Those guys take all types of shots/medication and crap to stay on the field. And there's a ton of pressure for them to do it, that's just the legal stuff. There's no way I could do it legal or illegal drugs even for all that money because you pay the price of your health in the end. Look at all the studies about concussions causing dementia with those athletes or 2-3 knee replacements. It's crazy. I'm so glad I blew out my knee so I didn't have to make the choice. I still say I'd just quit.

You guys crack me up, with this anti-capitalistic moonbat worshipping after that inverse diarrhea rhubard spewed on the other page. That crap rivals some of his stuff in the political thread.

Yes, pressures to perform and cheating never happened before society was overridden by the plague of present day society. What a crock.

 

[3rdWheel]

You guys crack me up, with this anti-capitalistic moonbat worshipping after that inverse diarrhea rhubard spewed on the other page. That crap rivals some of his stuff in the political thread.

Yes, pressures to perform and cheating never happened before society was overridden by the plague of present day society. What a crock.

It's cool most seem to agree with you in the poll so far.

 

[Winterfold]

rhubromas post is quite accurate it is the way of sport has been since the gladiators. fans like watching people brutalize each other in sport but then dont like the reality of what comes along with it.

+1 the best recent duel in a GT was Contador and the Chicken in TdF 2007 it really was outstanding. I cant stop watching last man standing selections in the big mountains like that and to some extent accept what makes it possible, if as seems to be the case today it's done safely, withing safe limits, with correct supervision etc etc

Rugby Union is another example, the brutality of modern pro rugby is thrilling, but makes huge demands on the players. If a sensible medical programme helps the players survive, recover from injuries, and is accessible so the playing field is reasonably level, then I am prepared to put up with the ethical inconvenience of it.

 

[buckwheat]

You guys crack me up, with this anti-capitalistic moonbat worshipping after that inverse diarrhea rhubard spewed on the other page. That crap rivals some of his stuff in the political thread.

Yes, pressures to perform and cheating never happened before society was overridden by the plague of present day society. What a crock.

You're the only one laughing.

That was a 10-7 round for rhubroma.

That means he knocked the other guy down about 5 or 6 times.

You should throw in the towel.

 

[buckwheat]

It'd be so great to be a cyclist that I'd be happy struggling along at the back tbh.

No it wouldn't. It's different digging deep to win than suffering to beat a time cut.

There's nothing great or glamorous about killing yourself just to hang on after working for your doped team leader and trying to compete with guys who are already badasses that are getting a 10 or 15% boost taking crap.

 

[buckwheat]

I would be interested in doing a before and after test though, for scientific purposes of course. I would need to get my act together on my diet and lose 5-7kg first and do some proper work on my threshold power first though. Else it would just be a waste of good drugs.

(joke)

Go to your doctor and tell him you're falling asleep and need to stay awake for work and ask for Modafinil, brand name, Provigil.

It's a fairly mild stimulant. Even though that's the case, it will make you feel like a completely different person.

This is why the competion of Pro cycling is a joke. All of these drugs and blood doping regimens are used for a reason. Even a conservative 10% improvement in performance is insane, and these guys who are already freaks are getting more improvement than that.

 

[buckwheat]

No

I don't like needles, doctors or even funny food supplements. You'd never get me taking any of that stuff.

I have trained at altitude a number of times and to be honest while I get the theory I was never convinced that it had any significant impact on my performance.

For context and for those that don't know I competed at two Olympics (rowing not cycling) - I was good enough to make the final (top six) at World level but only medalled once. I competed against nations that had systematic doping programs (USSR, DDR, ROM, BUL etc) and was competitive against them most but not all the time.

I would never have taken PED - it just wasn't part of my thinking.

Well, if there was any justice in this world we'd have an Olympic medalist on the forum.

Congratulations on sticking to your principles. It's not an easy thing to do in this world.

I've done some dishonest things earlier in my life and they really tore me up, nothing really major, but I knew they were wrong when I was doing them.

It's good that you kept to your scheme of life and obeyed a strong character.

 

[Inner Peace]

Once you have found Inner Peace like I have, you don't need to dope, because you have learnt that the mind controls the body, and not the opposite...



In all seriousness, I clicked I would leave the sport, but i have to say, I completely understand why riders dope. To us, it is cheating, to them it is not.

As many have said before on the forum, doping is a pretty rational choice when you consider that the dopers place a higher utility on winning/earning a salary than on the potential life long health problems from doping or loss of family and friends after being caught. It's rational to some, not rational to others.

As this fantastic poll has shown us, 50% of the forum dwellers here would agree that doping is rational, by accepting their fate that doping would be agreeable with them. A simple poll, but extremely thought provoking. The 50% does not surprise me the slightest, because after spending some time reading old threads it's clear there is alot of man-love for riders like Valverde, Vino and Contador who are all widely expected to have doped/have been caught red handed...

Clearly, many here are happy to accept that doping is a part of the sport, and the top riders are almost certianly doped (not my view, i'm the messenger) and are happy to support said riders.

Call me ignorant, but I still believe you can top 10 in any race clean.. As I said, call me ignorant, but I want to believe what I want to believe, and like 180mm crank, i am still gutted when a top pro is busted, despite having my suspicions. (ie. I like Contador, and will be gutted if he were caught, but in a way if that did happen, I already knew the truth but was happy to not believe it)

Great thread, really interesting discussion. cheers, IP.

 

[buckwheat]

I probably would.
I've never had a problem with taking (loads of) recreational drugs, so I'm guessing that if there was money involved I would go further than most.
In that case fair play would not concern me at all, it's not about the sport anyways.

I don't even really like this, but I know myself and when push comes to shove I even cheat at monopoly. The health aspect doesn't concern me.
I also fully understand the ridiculous Vino/Di Luca/Schumi/Chicken conspiracy reactions when they got caught, because I would probably do something similar. Rather that than rat out friends.

This sounds like a pretty honest post.

What really interests me is what are your standards for friends?

Any moral standards or just cool people to hang with while getting drunk or stoned?

Why do people who have so few qualms about morals draw the line at being a fink?

Is it bad karma?

 

[Hugh Januss]

Clearly, many here are happy to accept that doping is a part of the sport, and the top riders are almost certianly doped (not my view, i'm the messenger) and are happy to support said riders.

Call me ignorant, but I still believe you can top 10 in any race clean.. As I said, call me ignorant, but I want to believe what I want to believe, and like 180mm crank, i am still gutted when a top pro is busted, despite having my suspicions. (ie. I like Contador, and will be gutted if he were caught, but in a way if that did happen, I already knew the truth but was happy to not believe it)

Great thread, really interesting discussion. cheers, IP.

Ignorant is too strong a term, but can I interest you in a slightly used bridge, it's in Brooklyn NY.

 

[Inner Peace]

Precisely. Almost nobody starts out with the intention to dope, however, as one progresses one eventually realizes, if not right away, that it is impossible to continue at that level without dope. That's the truth. And anyone who doesn't believe this is either a fool or a liar to himself. Nobody, or pratically no one, says to himself I must dope at a certain point because, initially, their sense of so-called ethical behavior prohibits them from doing so and they are even repulsed by the prospect, but then they invariably very soon realize that if they continue with their moral arrogance in a world that is anything but moral, that is flagrantly immoral and corrupt to its gills, they will be left behind and everthing that they have ever dreamt of since boyhood will go up in smoke as they say.

The appalling reality is that sport, all sport, in this day and age, creates monsters, not athletes, who are willing to go against every moral principle they ever had just to stay in the field; though such dreadful beings, which aren't real athletes but depravity itself, have been in part the victoms of a horrible system in which economic interests, science and the vulgar desires of society have come together with the lethal effects for our civilization that are evident to anyone willing to open their eyes to them who are indeed few. And even without passing moral judgment upon the so-called athletes, we, if we are in any case to be intellectually honest, are forced to pass moral judgment on this dreadful system where hypocrisy is the order of the day and omertà is the governing code, all in the name of profit and corporate image which is naturally repulsive.

I think the key reason for why I want to quote you is to assert my position that the athlete makes the CHOICE to dope. He is not a victim of some cruel society.

You have kind of made out (or at least the impression I got) that it is the profiteers that are the bad guys, and the innocent riders go along with it, which I don't agree with at all, and as Chris E said, it comes across as slightly anti-capitalist. If that is your take, that's fine with me, but again, I think the rider always has a choice.

So I don't at all believe they are "victims of a horrible system" because they are not victims at all. They made a rational decision to dope. They made the choice. They did it. Not the corporations, not the team owners. It was the good guy who gave up his morals and ethics for fame and money. Perfectly rational, and not a victim in any way, in my opinion.

(Not directed at the quoted poster, but an additional comment) - I don't choose to believe that people are victims in a professional sport. It's NOT slavery for fcuk sake, it's just a sport where CHOICE is everwhere, and if people want to believe that they are the victim of some awful profiteer, then they should suck it up and open their eyes that when it comes to crunch time, no one is forcing a needle into your arm. You sat there quietly with your mouth shut and accepted it. You choose the benefits of doping over the costs and you made the rational choice to do it. People want to make money. That's life. You can't change that, and if they want to give a rider the opportunity to dope, and then the rider accepts it, they are both 'bad guys'. Neither is a victim of anything, just simple people who made a certain choice to cheat. End rant. Sorry.

 

[Hugh Januss]

The choice is removed when the top competitors are allowed to get away with cheating in a way that is so efficient that it is impossible to compete with them unless you resort to the same methods. Cheat or go home is hardly a choice.

 

[blaxland]

I like others who have posted here said no..................and i guess it comes down to morals/beliefs...so far i have lived my life by these guidelines.so becoming a professional rider would not sway me from these standards.To be a professional athelete in any sport doesnt mean winning at all costs.....not in my books anyways...

 

[Inner Peace]

The choice is removed when the top competitors are allowed to get away with cheating in a way that is so efficient that it is impossible to compete with them unless you resort to the same methods. Cheat or go home is hardly a choice.

It's exactly a choice by virtue of the fact that you used the word "or"..

That's my point, you can choose to give up your moral standing and cheat, or you can accept the sport is rotten and walk away with self-respect. The choice is simple for me, I would walk away. For others the simple choice is dope.

So i'm sorry but I disagree, there is always a choice in this scenario. Another choice is to expose doping after walking away which many have admirably done.

No-one can force someone to dope. Incentives are provided and you make the choice. If you want fame and money, dope. If you want honour and self respect, go home. Choice made.

 

[buckwheat]

I think the key reason for why I want to quote you is to assert my position that the athlete makes the CHOICE to dope. He is not a victim of some cruel society.

You have kind of made out (or at least the impression I got) that it is the profiteers that are the bad guys, and the innocent riders go along with it, which I don't agree with at all, and as Chris E said, it comes across as slightly anti-capitalist. If that is your take, that's fine with me, but again, I think the rider always has a choice.

So I don't at all believe they are "victims of a horrible system" because they are not victims at all. They made a rational decision to dope. They made the choice. They did it. Not the corporations, not the team owners. It was the good guy who gave up his morals and ethics for fame and money. Perfectly rational, and not a victim in any way, in my opinion.

(Not directed at the quoted poster, but an additional comment) - I don't choose to believe that people are victims in a professional sport. It's NOT slavery for fcuk sake, it's just a sport where CHOICE is everwhere, and if people want to believe that they are the victim of some awful profiteer, then they should suck it up and open their eyes that when it comes to crunch time, no one is forcing a needle into your arm. You sat there quietly with your mouth shut and accepted it. You choose the benefits of doping over the costs and you made the rational choice to do it. People want to make money. That's life. You can't change that, and if they want to give a rider the opportunity to dope, and then the rider accepts it, they are both 'bad guys'. Neither is a victim of anything, just simple people who made a certain choice to cheat. End rant. Sorry.

It's exploitation, pure and simple. "Choice" is a very loaded word which you take somewhat lightly. You seem sanctimonious to me. For your sake, I pray you're never forced to make difficult "choices."

BTW, you seem to have no clue as to how athletes are indoctrinated into this sort of thing.

 

[tubularglue]

does anyone have a list of riders who walked away clean ? curious

 

[Inner Peace]

It's exploitation, pure and simple. "Choice" is a very loaded word which you take somewhat lightly. You seem sanctimonious to me. For your sake, I pray you're never forced to make difficult "choices."

BTW, you seem to have no clue as to how athletes are indoctrinated into this sort of thing.

No need to pray mate, we all make difficult choices every day.

My take on choice is, you have more than one option, you weigh up said options, and then you choose the outcome based on whatever criteria you set forth. Simple.

As I said, you may look to doping and weigh up the pros and cons. There is no force here. You quite simply choose which option is best for you. Some choose to dope, some don't. Simple.

If you are going to pray for anyone, pray to the individuals that think cycling is slavery and somehow they have no choice but to dope... it's a ridiculous argument becoz there are always two options in this scenario. As sad as it is, CHOOSING not to dope may well mean leaving the sport. But there are two options, hence, a choice.

It takes a strength of character to give up a sport you love to keep your integrity. Many examples of riders doing this. Lemond resigned to the fact that he would not dope when the 90's extra terrestrial riders hit it up, so tell me, how is that not a man making a choice to not dope?? Why did he not feel 'forced' to dope? Easy. He made that choice that doping is not worth it to him. Simple.

EDIT: A couple of things to add

1) I did not mean to sound sanctimonious

2) I never said the choice was between two great options. It is a choice between two very sad ones. Leave the sport you love, or cheat in the sport you love. Not easy, but a choice nonetheless

 

[buckwheat]

No need to pray mate, we all make difficult choices every day.

My take on choice is, you have more than one option, you weigh up said options, and then you choose the outcome based on whatever criteria you set forth. Simple.

As I said, you may look to doping and weigh up the pros and cons. There is no force here. You quite simply choose which option is best for you. Some choose to dope, some don't. Simple.

If you are going to pray for anyone, pray to the individuals that think cycling is slavery and somehow they have no choice but to dope... it's a ridiculous argument becoz there are always two options in this scenario. As sad as it is, CHOOSING not to dope may well mean leaving the sport. But there are two options, hence, a choice.

It takes a strength of character to give up a sport you love to keep your integrity. Many examples of riders doing this. Lemond resigned to the fact that he would not dope when the 90's extra terrestrial riders hit it up, so tell me, how is that not a man making a choice to not dope?? Why did he not feel 'forced' to dope? Easy. He made that choice that doping is not worth it to him. Simple.

EDIT: A couple of things to add

1) I did not mean to sound sanctimonious

2) I never said the choice was between two great options. It is a choice between two very sad ones. Leave the sport you love, or cheat in the sport you love. Not easy, but a choice nonetheless

Perspectives change. LeMond was 30 years old when he became aware that something might be up. Actually, he was and is very forgiving towards the riders who are facing this "choice." He was the proverbial "one in a million" who didn't have to face the choice when he was 16 years old.

We do know that Carmichael was illegally injecting juniors with "extract of cortisone," when they hadn't even reached the age of consent.

One's powers of discernment and their concommitant experience aren't so great when they are in their teens or early 20's. If you've resisted all temptation, good on you.

I pray every day not to be lead into temptation.

If you've solved that issue, congratulations.

 

[ChrisE]

It's exploitation, pure and simple. "Choice" is a very loaded word which you take somewhat lightly. You seem sanctimonious to me. For your sake, I pray you're never forced to make difficult "choices."

BTW, you seem to have no clue as to how athletes are indoctrinated into this sort of thing.

BS. Inner Peace is right on. If you don't like what goes on in the sport, do something else. He happens to know what the word "choice" means and uses it as the basis of his position, unlike you. Just like your buddy rhubarb, always the victim of something you have no control over. Must suck going thru life like that.

Sanctimonious? lol Pot meet kettle.

10-7 round to inner peace.

 

[3rdWheel]

The fact is people dope for various reason. Whatever excuses (legitimate or not) someone can come up with they doped. If I have a gun in my hand and it goes off and kills somebody I'm responsible. Whether someone put it there or not I'd have to own up to it because the gun was in my hand. Maybe this is a bit of a strong analogy but I hope my point is taken, although no one has to agree with it. Does society play a part in all of this, sure it does/can but it ultimately ends with your decision. Making tough decisions has a lot to do with fear of the unknown. People fear the consequences of certain decisions.