If you were in their shoes, would you dope? Poll

[Escarabajo]

No

I don't like needles, doctors or even funny food supplements. You'd never get me taking any of that stuff.

I have trained at altitude a number of times and to be honest while I get the theory I was never convinced that it had any significant impact on my performance.

For context and for those that don't know I competed at two Olympics (rowing not cycling) - I was good enough to make the final (top six) at World level but only medalled once. I competed against nations that had systematic doping programs (USSR, DDR, ROM, BUL etc) and was competitive against them most but not all the time.

I would never have taken PED - it just wasn't part of my thinking.

Excellent info. Were you the one that said that one sign of doping is extreme consistency in their performance? Like for example not having a single bad day during a GT. That was a thread long ago. I knew it came from a high level performer, so maybe it was you.

As for the other question. I said I'd change jobs. But I kind of accept doping. It is always going to happen. But I also have hope for cleaner sport. We will know once we have the homo sapiens power numbers narrow down to the milimeter.

 

[palmerq]

I say yes...... I think with all the peer presure or whatever and the desire to be a pro sportsman and to win I think I would, well certainly in the old days(like 2007 and before).... Maybe not so much now, but I think I probably would to be honest I'm not above cheating if all else fails..... I would prefer to not cheat but if my need is such :S..... Not sure I would ever do crazy doping like some of the horror stories you hear, I think sinkewitz and the clotted blood bags :S that's too much.

But it is very hard to say :S it's easy to say no and pretend to be honourable and it's easy to say yes, I think it would be a lot scarier when you are confronted with the needles blood bags and everything you'd need... Didn't some guys have to get up in the middle of the night to ride on the trainer just to ease their blood flow ???..

 

[python]

interesting provocative poll and some responses.

again i cant vote b/c i don’t see the option that would fit my mindset.

that said, i'm surprised and mildly disappointed that almost 50% would conscientiously cheat.

It seems the higher idea as a motivating behavioral factor has gone out of fashion. that’s sad.

 

[auscyclefan94]

It would partially feel like I am living a lie. I am a bad liar anyway so i wouldn't dope but if all others were and people are pushing me to I would just leave. Interesting thread.

 

[craig1985]

Because I have problems with fatigue from time to time, then I would probably consider something to stop from being so tired, especially in a Grand Tour. But then once I do that, how do you draw a line in the sand, not just go the whole way?

 

[this_is_edie]

Okay I voted yes as an off the cuff vote because I'm not really faced by that decision in real life.

If I was face with the decision of 'doping' as an up and coming cycling, after working my **** off for years and being on the cusp of making it to the pros, I would (hopefully) say no if it was couched as doping. But what if a team mate or coach or trusted advisor said take this it will help, everyone else is doing it, then well I'm not so sure what I would have done.

Let's say that I made it to the pros clean, then would I start doping to go faster and win? No I don't think so. Let's say I made it to the pros and I am told by my team (coach, DS, team mate,...) that I need to get better to have a job next year. And then they offer something? again, that's where it would get difficult, I hope I would say no but who knows what I would do as a 20-something athlete with nothing else to fall back on.

Easy to say no way from the comfort of my couch.

 

[RDV4ROUBAIX]

I don't care how strong willed you are, or how nice of a guy, more than likely you'd be steered down the slippery slope. 2 of my friends, who were just normal everyday local grassroots racers that you'd never suspect of anything like this ended up getting caught up in the doping BS once they went pro. I reluctantly voted yes, the conflict of a optimist/realist, and I'm under no illusions because the pressure to dope at the higher levels of our sport is far grater than most would care to realize. My 2 cents, I'm rarely ever in this part of the forum, too depressing.

 

[Ripper]

I would not dope, and faced with the reality that seems to be, I would find another career (unless I was soooooo talented I could compete without doping, which is ........... unlikely).

 

[Ripper]

My 2 cents, I'm rarely ever in this part of the forum, too depressing.

It can be, but only in large doses!

 

[Martin318is]

I said yes but that is on the assumption that I back in my youth and therefore my kids didn't exist. I think that back then i would have been focussed enough on the end goal of a big contract etc that I'd end up undervaluing things such as my health, family future, or potential risk of losing face by being caught.

Now, however, I couldn't possibly see myself making such a judgement even if I was young enough to go pro. The existence of my kids means that I descend mountains completely differently to the way I used to so I couldn't imagine me being desperate enough to dope...

 

[Ferminal]

The problem is, even if you are doping, you're no way guarenteed to reach the top of the sport where you can earn several hundred thousand a year.

I be doping, just to hold the minimum pro contract - I'd go and find a new profession. On the other hand there are people who have devoted their life to cycling and love it as their job, so of course they might dope just to hold onto that pro lifestyle.

But if someone said - "Get on this program and you will be winning races and earning big money in no time", it would be very hard to turn them down. I guess that's what made Ferrari popular.

 

[Anonymous]

I don't care how strong willed you are, or how nice of a guy, more than likely you'd be steered down the slippery slope. 2 of my friends, who were just normal everyday local grassroots racers that you'd never suspect of anything like this ended up getting caught up in the doping BS once they went pro. I reluctantly voted yes, the conflict of a optimist/realist, and I'm under no illusions because the pressure to dope at the higher levels of our sport is far grater than most would care to realize. My 2 cents, I'm rarely ever in this part of the forum, too depressing.

He sums it up pretty nicely.

I really need to talk to my buddy about doping. He was a very good racer but from the way he talks now it sounds like doping soured it for him. It's just hard to get him to open up about his past.

 

[marinoni]

No One Knows

I think that, for the most part the question is unanswerable. With all due respect, if you havent been in that position where your life, dreams and livelihood depend on what you decide then I can't take your answer seriously. I used to interview WW2 vets and many of them told me there's no way to know how you'll react in combat till you're there. They have nothing but contempt for bigmouthed civilians bragging about how tough they'd be. Obviously in terms of importance, fighting a battle and cycling are two very different things but the principal is the same. Maybe one of you is Ricardo Ricco and maybe one of you is Christophe Bassons. Otherwise the best you or I can say is " I hope I'd do the right thing."

 

[markene2]

If i had a job as a suport rider i would probably not dope if i was good without. But if i could ride for my own chances and was almost up there. Then i would dope!
So i answerd Yes!

 

[rhubroma]

I don't believe it is a valid question. I honestly think by the time you are a 400K or even 100K a year pro, that decision has long since been made.
As you start to show promise at the upper amateur level you learn more and more about how to "prep" yourself, first not really illegal stuff from the experienced guys in your local team, progressing all the way up to the "tricks of the trade" that you may learn from national team or developmental pro team trainers. It is probably not even a finite line that you are aware of crossing. One day you're a top junior powering down 3 mocha gels and a hit on an inhaler right before a 10 mile TT and the next you are in a hotel in France hooked up to a blood bag. Or something like that.

Precisely. Almost nobody starts out with the intention to dope, however, as one progresses one eventually realizes, if not right away, that it is impossible to continue at that level without dope. That's the truth. And anyone who doesn't believe this is either a fool or a liar to himself. Nobody, or pratically no one, says to himself I must dope at a certain point because, initially, their sense of so-called ethical behavior prohibits them from doing so and they are even repulsed by the prospect, but then they invariably very soon realize that if they continue with their moral arrogance in a world that is anything but moral, that is flagrantly immoral and corrupt to its gills, they will be left behind and everthing that they have ever dreamt of since boyhood will go up in smoke as they say.

The appalling reality is that sport, all sport, in this day and age, creates monsters, not athletes, who are willing to go against every moral principle they ever had just to stay in the field; though such dreadful beings, which aren't real athletes but depravity itself, have been in part the victoms of a horrible system in which economic interests, science and the vulgar desires of society have come together with the lethal effects for our civilization that are evident to anyone willing to open their eyes to them who are indeed few. And even without passing moral judgment upon the so-called athletes, we, if we are in any case to be intellectually honest, are forced to pass moral judgment on this dreadful system where hypocrisy is the order of the day and omertà is the governing code, all in the name of profit and corporate image which is naturally repulsive.

 

[Jonathonc]

I'm no expert....

I have a distinction in my mind here. What is legal v illegal = what is dope and what is not? Would I drink strong coffee and pop Pro Plus pills? Would I take protein powders, creatine, branch chain amino acids & vitamin supplemnets? Would I sleep in a hypoxic tent & train at altitude? Would I try my damdest to get a TAU for exercise induced asthma, so I could chug on a variety of inhalers? Yes to all. Would I do things like a sneeky blood transfusion or rub on some testosterone cream to raise my tour depleted hormone levels back up to normal? Not sure. I've never liked needles overly much and I'm not convinced a simple cream would make that much difference. Would I use EPO and risk my blood turning to sludge, would I use HGH and risk growing a horse's head or steroids and risk liver and kidney disease? Definitely not. But, as many have said, we are not 25 anymore and racing for our livelyhoods. Thing is, I'm quite scientific by inclanation and I'd really like to see a comparison of current standard of care (i.e. everything that is not illegal being used to its maximum) v say current standard of care plus EPO v current standard of care plus blood tranfusions etc.

At the moment, doping is not an informed choice. Just a guess v what one rider thinks another MAY be doing.

 

[msjett]

I said yes...but being a woman, I would have to draw the line at testosterone, I don't need a beard or any of the other side effects.

Hypothetically, if I got caught, I would put my hand up and say yes I did. Would I rat others out who I knew did it? I don't think so, they didn't make me do it.

 

[3rdWheel]

Very interesting topic because it has made us focus on ourselves instead of what the pro's are doing or not doing. After reading some of the comments after mine it made me re-think my position, now being over-the-hill in terms of competitive sports. I still wouldn't dope and I'd leave the sport. My older brother was a Cat 3 rider and he didn't dope. And I'm certain I would have followed his program.

 

[Jonathan]

I'm not sure if I understand the question - if truly everyone is doping, the riders probably don't have a choice. Anyone not doping would have to find a new job, making the second and third choices basically the same.

So assuming that in a practical sense, every rider would have a viable choice, I think I could be happy with riding mediocre results, working for a leader and generally doing my best without doping. I don't think I would be so ambitious that I'd feel the need to use doping if I could keep up without it.

If the job of pro cyclist demands that you use doping - and there is reason to believe this is the case - I would not become a pro cyclist.

 

[Bala Verde]

What about envy? At one point you have been the faithful helper of the team's star. Most of them, when you started out, were quite a bit older than you. You schlepped him over mountains, fetched him so many bottles you came to grow a hump and could pass for a camel, gave him your wheels when he punctured, brought him back to the lead/peloton because he was slightly inattentive, and chased down escapees and competitors. In the end, he was always surrounded by the nicest podium girls.

You accepted your role as a domestique; you were young and there to learn.

But then the old man lost his touch a little, every race he is shining a little less. You matured in his slipstream, you are 5 years older and you have shown good form on some mountain stages or in some TTs or you sprinted well in some of those (semi)classics. And then this young guy, this so called prodigy, this talented rider joins the team, 5 tears your junior. And what do you get to do, schlepp him over mountains, teach him the tricks of the trade, fetch bottles, and protect him... The eternal recurrence of the same.

Do you still accept your role as a domestique?

 

[Jonathan]

(...)
Do you still accept your role as a domestique?

If you're asking me, yes, I would. It doesn't seem like a bad job to work as a domestique in a pro cycling team. It pays well and there is not as much pressure as on the leaders (but still some I imagine!). While I expect it would be tedious to never win anything at all, I think I could manage not being envious of my team's leader(s).

 

[3rdWheel]

What about envy? At one point you have been the faithful helper of the team's star. Most of them, when you started out, were quite a bit older than you. You schlepped him over mountains, fetched him so many bottles you came to grow a hump and could pass for a camel, gave him your wheels when he punctured, brought him back to the lead/peloton because he was slightly inattentive, and chased down escapees and competitors. In the end, he was always surrounded by the nicest podium girls.

You accepted your role as a domestique; you were young and there to learn.

But then the old man lost his touch a little, every race he is shining a little less. You matured in his slipstream, you are 5 years older and you have shown good form on some mountain stages or in some TTs or you sprinted well in some of those (semi)classics. And then this young guy, this so called prodigy, this talented rider joins the team, 5 tears your junior. And what do you get to do, schlepp him over mountains, teach him the tricks of the trade, fetch bottles, and protect him... The eternal recurrence of the same.

Do you still accept your role as a domestique?

This sound a little like being passed over for a promotion on a job for the guy you trained. I can relate to that somewhat. In my situation I found a new job since clearly I had no future there.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

If you're asking me, yes, I would. It doesn't seem like a bad job to work as a domestique in a pro cycling team. It pays well and there is not as much pressure as on the leaders (but still some I imagine!). While I expect it would be tedious to never win anything at all, I think I could manage not being envious of my team's leader(s).

Problem here is that you are assuming your team or DS is happy that you are not able to your job.

What happens when your DS says they probably wont renew your contract - as you can be replaced with someone younger & cheaper?
But then says "unless of course you show a significant improvement between now and the end of the year"...

 

[karlboss]

depends on what i thought i could achieve i think and my impression of others around me. If i thought everyone was doping, I would dope if bare minimum i thought i could win a classic, I can make enough money outside of being a professional cyclist. If I had some doubt about who was doping...it would really play on my mind beating a guy into second place in a classic if i thought he was clean and i doped.

 

[BikeCentric]

Precisely. Almost nobody starts out with the intention to dope, however, as one progresses one eventually realizes, if not right away, that it is impossible to continue at that level without dope. That's the truth. And anyone who doesn't believe this is either a fool or a liar to himself. Nobody, or pratically no one, says to himself I must dope at a certain point because, initially, their sense of so-called ethical behavior prohibits them from doing so and they are even repulsed by the prospect, but then they invariably very soon realize that if they continue with their moral arrogance in a world that is anything but moral, that is flagrantly immoral and corrupt to its gills, they will be left behind and everthing that they have ever dreamt of since boyhood will go up in smoke as they say.

The appalling reality is that sport, all sport, in this day and age, creates monsters, not athletes, who are willing to go against every moral principle they ever had just to stay in the field; though such dreadful beings, which aren't real athletes but depravity itself, have been in part the victoms of a horrible system in which economic interests, science and the vulgar desires of society have come together with the lethal effects for our civilization that are evident to anyone willing to open their eyes to them who are indeed few. And even without passing moral judgment upon the so-called athletes, we, if we are in any case to be intellectually honest, are forced to pass moral judgment on this dreadful system where hypocrisy is the order of the day and omertà is the governing code, all in the name of profit and corporate image which is naturally repulsive.

Wow, great post! It is helpful to me and I'm sure others when you apply your Philosophy knowledge to this subject rhubroma as it helps to understand how and why the current situation came to be.