Il Lombardia 2017

[franic]

Re: Re:

Pfff.....He's the most overrated rider in the history of this forum.

Said by somebody with the avatar of a rider who would have never won anything if he raced in another team...

 

[Nirvana]

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

 

[RedheadDane]

Re: Re:

Pfff.....He's the most overrated rider in the history of this forum.

Said by somebody with the avatar of a rider who would have never won anything if he raced in another team...

That might be why he isn't racing in another team.

 

[Tank Engine]

Re:

What a lesson of Nibali, no more to say.

I was hoping that Pinot could somehow keep with him on the descent. Only Pinot matched him on the climb, got dropped on the descent and it never looked like anybody would get back to the Shark on the flat. He was just the strongest today.

As for the course, I'm all for a monument where the climbers can (and even most often) win. However, all three guys on the podium are simply great all-round riders. OK, Nibali hasn't got a sprint, but that means he has to go from some distance to beat Balaphillipe. So what's not to like?

 

[Netserk]

Yet MSR with Manie was still an easier (raced) race than it was in the many years before Zabel's first win.

 

[OlavEH]

Re: Re:

The course will be designed so that the best italian riders of the moment have a chance to win. This explains why a rider like Bartoli could win it and now it is Aru and Nibali who have a chance.

Exactly - and this is pretty much the only monument to do this in such an obvious way. Which, for me, does devalue it a bit compared with the other big classics - particularly when an Italian wins, who would have had no chance on the same race a decade earlier.

I like the newer and tougher courses. The 2011-2013 versions ending in Lecco had an easier course, and those versions weren't too entertaining. Same for the 2014 version which was very similar to earlier routes used until 2002.

 

[silvergrenade]

Re: Re:

Pfff.....He's the most overrated rider in the history of this forum.

Said by somebody with the avatar of a rider who would have never won anything if he raced in another team...

Doesn't matter. You can choose to believe what you want to.
He is a 4 time tdf champ and has done the double. :razz:

 

[OlavEH]

Re:

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

Le Manie was an welcome addition to MSR. I would also like to see what happened if they added Pompeiana. Or at least substituted Cipressa with Pompeiana.

 

[lenric]

Re: Re:

The podium today are all great classics riders. Two of them (the so-called GT climbing specialists) have podiumed MSR... The third has a 5th in Roubaix.

If Nibali wasn't there, it'd have been decided on San Fermo, and Pinot and Uran would likely still have been beaten.

Wow, I totally forgot MSR 2012. Also Nibali almost won LBL...

Nibali is a very underrated rider. There is always an asterisk next to his tour de France victory but even before Froome and others retired, he had created a huge gap which would have been near impossible to get back. He is smart,offensive and simply good. More versatile than Contador, he is simply in the top three of the past ten years.

Pfff.....He's the most overrated rider in the history of this forum.

Pinot's one of the most overrated riders of this forum? 100% true.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Aru was nowhere to be found today
I don't think you're making peace with your statements
First you say: "italy organized the Lombardia for Nibali"
then you move the goalpost,when people showed you that Nibs was the strongest uphill,dowhill and in the last flat part.

"italy organized il Lombardia for the Italians"
Alaphilippe arrived 2nd though


[/u]

Not really sure of you're point here. Designing a Lombardia that gives the best chance for an Italian to win, is basically designing a Lombardia that gives the best chance for Nibali to win - the two are the same thing. Just like 10-15 years ago the course was designed with Bartoli or Bettini in mind. It will be interesting to see how they will tweak in a couple of years to give Moscon the best chance of victory - probably will become a bit easier again.

Of course Nibali still has to go out an win on the course, which is far from a certainty. It just devalues the race, like any race is devalued when it is designed with certain riders in mind.

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

Le Manie was an welcome addition to MSR. I would also like to see what happened if they added Pompeiana. Or at least substituted Cipressa with Pompeiana.

With the Pompeiana would be almost no flat from the beginning of the Cipressa to the finish, an Ardennes riders finale, no more sprints and an higher possibility to go solo for a climber.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

Yep, Italy is pretty shameless at it. I think Spain tried to do the same with the Vuelta a few years ago - giving the best chance to Purito and Valverde with loads of muritos and shortish TTs. But neither were good enough to actually win on it! And in the end they saw it made great racing and stuck with it.

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Re: Re:

The podium today are all great classics riders. Two of them (the so-called GT climbing specialists) have podiumed MSR... The third has a 5th in Roubaix.

Alaphillippe is a GT climbing specialist??? So-called by whom?

 

[Netserk]

Re: Re:

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

Le Manie was an welcome addition to MSR. I would also like to see what happened if they added Pompeiana. Or at least substituted Cipressa with Pompeiana.

With the Pompeiana would be almost no flat from the beginning of the Cipressa to the finish, an Ardennes riders finale, no more sprints and an higher possibility to go solo for a climber.

Which is the point. Sprints are the anomaly.

https://unavueltamejor.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/grupos-msr-english-actualizado.png

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

Re: Re:

Nibali is a very underrated rider. There is always an asterisk next to his tour de France victory but even before Froome and others retired, he had created a huge gap which would have been near impossible to get back. He is smart,offensive and simply good. More versatile than Contador, he is simply in the top three of the past ten years.

Froome DNFed on stage 5. At the end of stage 4 Nibali's lead over him was 2 seconds. Please explain how this constitutes "a huge gap which would have been near impossible to get back"

 

[OlavEH]

Re: Re:

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

Le Manie was an welcome addition to MSR. I would also like to see what happened if they added Pompeiana. Or at least substituted Cipressa with Pompeiana.

With the Pompeiana would be almost no flat from the beginning of the Cipressa to the finish, an Ardennes riders finale, no more sprints and an higher possibility to go solo for a climber.

That's why I mentioned the possibility of substituting Cipressa with Pompeiana. How long has it been since an attack on Cipressa came anywhere close to succeeding? Pompeiana is a bit steeper and have an higher max gradient, in addition to fewer kms flat before Poggio (something like 9 kms between Cipressa and Poggio vs less than 5 kms of flat between Pompeiana and Poggio). That would increase the chance for an successful attack and add an element to the race. Today it's only about the last km on Poggio, the descent and the last couple of flat kms.

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

Le Manie was an welcome addition to MSR. I would also like to see what happened if they added Pompeiana. Or at least substituted Cipressa with Pompeiana.

With the Pompeiana would be almost no flat from the beginning of the Cipressa to the finish, an Ardennes riders finale, no more sprints and an higher possibility to go solo for a climber.

Which is the point. Sprints are the anomaly.

https://unavueltamejor.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/grupos-msr-english-actualizado.png

But cycling is changed, nowadays also in Liege it's a sprint, a race should mantain his route established in decades, changing only because it's better if a climber win solo than a sprint is a nonsense.

 

[Netserk]

Well, what route of Lombardia is established in decades then?

Should Cipressa and Poggio be removed from MSR?

 

[Robert5091]

Chapeau Nibs!

Glad to see De Plus survived ok - lucky man - vision/flash back of Zulle from years past.

 

[jaylew]

Re: Re:

The podium today are all great classics riders. Two of them (the so-called GT climbing specialists) have podiumed MSR... The third has a 5th in Roubaix.

If Nibali wasn't there, it'd have been decided on San Fermo, and Pinot and Uran would likely still have been beaten.

Wow, I totally forgot MSR 2012. Also Nibali almost won LBL...

Nibali is a very underrated rider. There is always an asterisk next to his tour de France victory but even before Froome and others retired, he had created a huge gap which would have been near impossible to get back. He is smart,offensive and simply good. More versatile than Contador, he is simply in the top three of the past ten years.

Pfff.....He's the most overrated rider in the history of this forum.

Right...a guy who's won all three GTs with 10 podiums and has won 2 monuments and finished on the podium in 3 of the 5 is the most overrated rider in the history of this forum.

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

It's not only Lombardia, RCS hardened even more Tirreno-Adriatico in recent years tramsforming it from a classics riders race to a climbers one, they added the Superga MTF in Milano-Torino and they also try with MSR when they put in the Manie.

Le Manie was an welcome addition to MSR. I would also like to see what happened if they added Pompeiana. Or at least substituted Cipressa with Pompeiana.

With the Pompeiana would be almost no flat from the beginning of the Cipressa to the finish, an Ardennes riders finale, no more sprints and an higher possibility to go solo for a climber.

Which is the point. Sprints are the anomaly.

https://unavueltamejor.files.wordpress.com/2014/03/grupos-msr-english-actualizado.png

But cycling is changed, nowadays also in Liege it's a sprint, a race should mantain his route established in decades, changing only because it's better if a climber win solo than a sprint is a nonsense.

If routes wouldn't change the tour de france would probably be won by sprinters and most one day races would end in bunch sprints as well. Do you want this sport to become extremely boring, then not changing routes is the way to achieve that. But I think most people want to watch exciting races and therefore routes have to change.

Besides, what makes the lombardia route special is that it changes very often. Completely changing the route of this race isn't comparable to changing the route of for example Paris Roubaix.

 

[Tonton]

Re: Re:

Pinot's one of the most overrated riders of this forum? 100% true.

you couldn't help it, could you?

Tibopino shall have his revenge in this life or the next...or the next. .

 

[Netserk]

Now I'm no fan of Pompeiana either, but I definitely think that status quo is broken when it comes to MSR. Le Manie was just enough as it still allowed big bunch sprint, but also made late moves more likely to stick, and had the quality of being far from the finish, so not altering the now iconic finish of the race. If Le Manie is deemed either not enough (I think it's the minimum of what's needed, but that it'll do) or if it's not raceable then I think there's two better alternatives than Pompeiana; one is very similar to Le Manie but later in the race, the other is after the capos and just before Cipressa, but also easier:

 

[Armchair Cyclist]

At the risk of disrupting this discussion of historical MSR routes into something about the 2017 Lombardia...

Has Vuillermoz been reinstated? When PCS only had a top ten up, Vuillermoz was missing: now that they have the whole list of finishers, he is back in 4th place.

I also read that Jan Bakelandts had a fall at the same place as De Plus and is described as seriously injured.

 

[Netserk]

https://twitter.com/inrng/status/916710134281330688