Il Lombardia 2017

[Armchair cyclist]

So was that a disqualification that got reversed, or simply not registering the presence of the man who came in 5th?

 

[Netserk]

I think it's the latter.

 

[Nirvana]

Re:

Well, what route of Lombardia is established in decades then?

Should Cipressa and Poggio be removed from MSR?

Lombardia can change because doesn't have one but the difficulty should be similar, something like last year with consecutive climbs like a mountain stage is ridicoulos but also this year route is too hard.

If they'll take out of the MSR the Cipressa or the Poggio would be like when they took the Muur out of the Ronde finale, something terrible in my opinion.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Well, what route of Lombardia is established in decades then?

Should Cipressa and Poggio be removed from MSR?

Lombardia can change because doesn't have one but the difficulty should be similar, something like last year with consecutive climbs like a mountain stage is ridicoulos but also this year route is too hard.

If they'll take out of the MSR the Cipressa or the Poggio would be like when they took the Muur out of the Ronde finale, something terrible in my opinion.

I am not sure what you want? do you want more sprints??

 

[Flat Out]

In the long interview after the race, Nibs confirms he is very interested in having a "classics" season, they will wait for the GT parcours to be ut before taking any decisions but he seemed rather convinced for the Ardennes and the WC. Cadel Evans was in the studio, he pointed out Vincenzo has nothing more to show in the GT having won all of them and he should really go hunting Classics to become one of the greatest of his generations, he spoke of him as being a bit like Mercxx which wade Nibs laugh!

 

[Netserk]

How do you compare the difficulty of a route from the 80's with one from the present? Or 50's for that matter when a lot more roads were gravel roads. I think MSR is a good case to show that the same route in different decades are no longer of the same difficulty.

 

[Escarabajo]

Re: Re:

Aru was nowhere to be found today
I don't think you're making peace with your statements
First you say: "italy organized the Lombardia for Nibali"
then you move the goalpost,when people showed you that Nibs was the strongest uphill,dowhill and in the last flat part.

"italy organized il Lombardia for the Italians"
Alaphilippe arrived 2nd though


[/u]

Not really sure of you're point here. Designing a Lombardia that gives the best chance for an Italian to win, is basically designing a Lombardia that gives the best chance for Nibali to win - the two are the same thing. Just like 10-15 years ago the course was designed with Bartoli or Bettini in mind. It will be interesting to see how they will tweak in a couple of years to give Moscon the best chance of victory - probably will become a bit easier again.

Of course Nibali still has to go out an win on the course, which is far from a certainty. It just devalues the race, like any race is devalued when it is designed with certain riders in mind.

Nibali was the best all rounder at the moment. He is enjoying a peak at the end of the year. Really nothing to do with the course which is usually a one for climbers. Yet Alaphilippe arrived in second.

I doesn't devalue anything.

 

[Vesica]

The moment the camera-motor got in between Nibali and Pinot, Pinot was done. Very strange move imo from the moto.

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

If routes wouldn't change the tour de france would probably be won by sprinters and most one day races would end in bunch sprints as well. Do you want this sport to become extremely boring, then not changing routes is the way to achieve that. But I think most people want to watch exciting races and therefore routes have to change

I don't think that mountain stages of the Tour are more exciting than flat ones, in Peyragudes we had essentially 1,5 kms of action, we could have the same also with a flat stage and Huy finish at the end.

Anyway the Tour has Pyrenees since 1910, the only major change we had in recent years is the disappaerance of the long time trials that has made the climbers less attacking prone and so the mountain stages are become boring because it's only a matter of seconds. If you put 120/150 kms of TT like in 80s/90s the climbers would be forced to ride like Chiappucci against Indurain if they want to have a chance.

 

[Netserk]

The moment the camera-motor got in between Nibali and Pinot, Pinot was done. Very strange move imo from the moto.

How come? From what I could see it didn't interfere with Pinot's lines, and as it was behind Nibali it didn't assist him either.

 

[Leinster]

Re:

Well, what route of Lombardia is established in decades then?

Should Cipressa and Poggio be removed from MSR?

The only thing established in Lombardia is the Ghisallo, which just serves to keep away the Kittels and Greipels, who are all riding Paris-Tours tomorrow/done for the year anyway.

In 85, the Ghisallo was the last obstacle, 60km from the finish!

Kelly beat Van Der Poel and Mottet in the sprint at the Vigorelli. Which would be the equivalent of Sagan over Stybar and Alaphilippe today.


I agree with others above; it's a good thing that there's a Monument where true climbers can be competitive. But at the same time, it's also clear that some classics specialists can still win.

 

[Leinster]

Re:

In the long interview after the race, Nibs confirms he is very interested in having a "classics" season, they will wait for the GT parcours to be ut before taking any decisions but he seemed rather convinced for the Ardennes and the WC. Cadel Evans was in the studio, he pointed out Vincenzo has nothing more to show in the GT having won all of them and he should really go hunting Classics to become one of the greatest of his generations, he spoke of him as being a bit like Mercxx which wade Nibs laugh!

If Nibali could add LBL and a Worlds (depending on the Innsbruck course) to his palmares next season, he'd be well up the list for all-time greats.

 

[Nirvana]

Re: Re:

Well, what route of Lombardia is established in decades then?

Should Cipressa and Poggio be removed from MSR?

Lombardia can change because doesn't have one but the difficulty should be similar, something like last year with consecutive climbs like a mountain stage is ridicoulos but also this year route is too hard.

If they'll take out of the MSR the Cipressa or the Poggio would be like when they took the Muur out of the Ronde finale, something terrible in my opinion.

I am not sure what you want? do you want more sprints??

I want that the routes established in decades (or in case of a race that usually change like Lombardia the charactericstic of the race) would be mantained and not altered only because an hard race is better. And i don't think that this common thought of the harder the better it's true, for example Paris-Tours only has two little bumps but always delivers, Liege with multiple côtes not.

 

[Tonton]

Please, please,please...on topic. Thank you.

 

[JoeD1997]

Re:

I also read that Jan Bakelandts had a fall at the same place as De Plus and is described as seriously injured.

CN now reporting that Petilli and Dani Martinez also had crashes on that same corner.

Does anyone know if Uran crashed or had a mechanical or just simply died in the final? He looked good on Civiglio but ended up finishing a bit down on even the chase group.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

Nibali as expected.

Happy with how Sam Oomen did

 

[Gigs_98]

Re: Re:

Well, what route of Lombardia is established in decades then?

Should Cipressa and Poggio be removed from MSR?

Lombardia can change because doesn't have one but the difficulty should be similar, something like last year with consecutive climbs like a mountain stage is ridicoulos but also this year route is too hard.

If they'll take out of the MSR the Cipressa or the Poggio would be like when they took the Muur out of the Ronde finale, something terrible in my opinion.

I am not sure what you want? do you want more sprints??

I want that the routes established in decades (or in case of a race that usually change like Lombardia the charactericstic of the race) would be mantained and not altered only because an hard race is better. And i don't think that this common thought of the harder the better it's true, for example Paris-Tours only has two little bumps but always delivers, Liege with multiple côtes not.

But if the sport changes, why should the routes not change. I guarantee you that the sport of cycling would die out routes would never change. I mean even positive aspects of routes you pointed out were actually changes. You want long TT's in the tour? Guess what, there was a two decades long tradition of tdf routes not having ITT's. There were usually hardly any mountains stages and the climbs were always extremely far away from the finish. Thank god they changed that or even in your beloved 80s/90s the tour would have been boring. It's a good thing that the lombardia route changed since actually not changing the route is what would really change this route. You want a classic for hilly riders? If you return to the old lombardia routes you will instead create a classic for sprinters. Only if the route gets adapted regularly the race can keep its prestige.

 

[RedheadDane]

Turns out De Plus wasn't the only one who crashed in that corner.

 

[GuyIncognito]

What was Vuillermoz yelling and gesturing to Moscon about as they came across the line?

 

[silvergrenade]

Re:

What was Vuillermoz yelling and gesturing to Moscon about as they came across the line?

All the French teams ganging up on Moscon.

 

[GuyIncognito]

Re: Re:

What was Vuillermoz yelling and gesturing to Moscon about as they came across the line?

All the French teams ganging up on Moscon.

They seem to be biased against terrible human beings. Unfortunate.

Seriously though, what was Vuillermoz angry about?

 

[sir fly]

Nibali has perfetcted winning this race.
Looked like he knew the exact place and moment he'll drop the rivals.
Congrats.

A true relief to hear De Plus isn't seriously injured.

 

[Rollthedice]

Re:

Nibali has perfetcted winning this race.
Looked like he knew the exact place and moment he'll drop the rivals.
Congrats.

A true relief to hear De Plus isn't seriously injured.

If they keep this parcours it will be like Valverde's Fleche, he'll keep winning until he retires.

 

[Jagartrott]

Re:

Turns out De Plus wasn't the only one who crashed in that corner.

Tsss. Poor guys. Bakelants suffered a major injury here before I think.

 

[46&twoWheels]

Re: Re:

Aru was nowhere to be found today
I don't think you're making peace with your statements
First you say: "italy organized the Lombardia for Nibali"
then you move the goalpost,when people showed you that Nibs was the strongest uphill,dowhill and in the last flat part.

"italy organized il Lombardia for the Italians"
Alaphilippe arrived 2nd though


[/u]

Not really sure of you're point here. Designing a Lombardia that gives the best chance for an Italian to win, is basically designing a Lombardia that gives the best chance for Nibali to win - the two are the same thing. Just like 10-15 years ago the course was designed with Bartoli or Bettini in mind. It will be interesting to see how they will tweak in a couple of years to give Moscon the best chance of victory - probably will become a bit easier again.

Of course Nibali still has to go out an win on the course, which is far from a certainty. It just devalues the race, like any race is devalued when it is designed with certain riders in mind.

I'm trying to follow your reasoning but I can't find a handhold in the end.
You're implying Nibali was "gifted" without mentioning the world class opponents and the EQUAL STARTING CONDITIONS.
The advantage that Nibali had,if it can be called advantage,is that he knew the route (he's already won the race and he trains even there) and that he was the best in the most important sectors.

Also,you're implying that Nibali's win was certain. That's called "hindsight bias".

I dont' believe there's such thing as an "ideal" race for a rider and if it's so it means that other riders already know Nibali's strenght and weaknesses as we knew so they could have stoppe him from winning which wasn't the case.
So for me the "advantage" related to the route is negligible if we consider that he showed to be the strongest
It would have deserved devaluation if Nibali would have won ONLY because the route-advantage without the brute-forceful separation from the peloton