Impey cleared of doping - free to race

[Parker]

So given he would have had to have ingested a home brew supplement pill on the day or hours leading up to the sample being given in order to have still had enough in the urine to register a positive, why didn't Impey provide details of the supplement on the anti-doping forms at time of sample collection?

It wasn't Gatorade, it was a pill. You are meant to list all supplements for the purpose of anti-doping authorities later being able to check for such contamination possibility stories.

It's Bicarbonate of Soda. It's used in baking. You have consumed it this week - almost guaranteed. It's not a supplement - it's a daily product.

 

[Granville57]

* WTF is up with that anyway? - your own bicarb pills? But that's an aside

It's addressed in the OP's link.

Bicarbonate of soda helps buffer the effects of lactic acid.

Or so we are led to believe was the motivation for these pills.

 

[Granville57]

Hey here's an innovative concept!

Are you a pro athlete, subject to a variety of doping tests?

Leave any and all pills at home on race day.

Just a thought.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

It's Bicarbonate of Soda. It's used in baking. You have consumed it this week - almost guaranteed. It's not a supplement - it's a daily product.

I know what it is, and putting it into capsules specifically for use as an ergogenic aid most definitely makes it a supplement. I didn't say prohibited, I simply said supplement. You are required to list all supplements when you complete the anti-doping sample form.

He wasn't stuffing baked bread or pancakes into capsules.

Doping control procedures require it. See this example from ASADA, but the process is harmonised across ADAs:

9. Final paperwork
Your personal information is recorded on the Doping Control Test Form, including contact details. You will be asked to provide information on prescription and non-prescription medications, vitamins, herbal products, food supplements, and any other substances you have used within the last seven (7) days. These are recorded on the Doping Control Test Form.

There is a reason why the ADA wants information on such things, so that cases like this can be properly verified and validated with prior knowledge. e.g. if Impey had listed on the test control form that he was using X mg of bicarb in capsule form on the day, then his story becomes more plausible.

 

[pastronef]

Yes they should come out. It is called transparency. And it is lack of transparency that makes the sport a joke in the eyes of many. Until there's transparency, the cloud of suspicion will never go away. And if Impey is innocent, I bet that he wants transparency and clear his name. But I agree with you: the details won't come out.

did Impey and the pharmacist have the receipts for February? yes

do they match with the daily receipts for that day if we check with the pharmacy books? don't know

backdated receipt?

 

[TailWindHome]

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/u...o-deciding-if-appeal-with-cas-will-be-lodged/

 

[SundayRider]

It's Bicarbonate of Soda. It's used in baking. You have consumed it this week - almost guaranteed. It's not a supplement - it's a daily product.

Its a supplement if used in capsules for a specific effect. I think that is very different from ingesting it from bread or a cake etc

 

[Mayo from Mayo]

But as previously sourced it does help counteract the side-effects of probenecid, so i'm sticking with that theory.

Suppose an unnamed person purchases probenecid from a pharmacist. They discuss side effects. The pharmacist says this can be ameliorated by taking bicarbonate of soda. Offers to sell gelatine capsules for said purpose and counts them out on same pill counter because no need to be concerned about cross contamination.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Cycling SA want SAIDS to explain how it took four months to notify Impey he was positive:

“This isn’t acceptable. It impacts Daryl’s future earnings and his career. We cannot tolerate a four-month delay in terms of getting the results to the rider.”

link

 

[fmk_RoI]

How obscure is the issue of cross contamination in pharmacies because of pill-counters? Not very, if the Google results of a simple search are anything to go by.

This on the pharmacokinetics of probenecid following oral doses may be of interest to some: link

(It's amazing the amount of stuff you can find out there on this in a couple of hours, let alone a couple of months.)

 

[TailWindHome]

Nope. I asked legitimate questions and asked that the powers that be in this case give the details, show that they did their due diligence. I didn't mention, as you seemed to indicate that I want to know who suffers a condition. If you understood it that way, my bad. But please don't isolate bits and pieces of the six or seven posts that I have written. I asked for transparency, so we can understand how far the investigation went, even making the workplace drug testing analogy. I need all the details in order to believe Impey. As Energy Starr indicated, I raised the question as it relates to the previous customer, and as it relates to the pharmacist. I want to know:

1. Who is the pharmacist? Any link to Impey, his Team?
2. Any other athletes as customers?
3. Has the customer whose drugs allegedly cross-contaminated Impey's capsules any link to Impey, or his team?

We all know Mrs. Rumsas, the crooked doctors, et caetera, et caetera. I don't feel that this investigation was that: an investigation. If it was, great: then give the details. i won't take their word (and Impey's) at face value. Do you?

Thank you.

Do you want to know or do you want to know that the tribunal knows?
If you know what I mean.

 

[Parker]

Its a supplement if used in capsules for a specific effect. I think that is very different from ingesting it from bread or a cake etc

It's not sold as a supplement though. And it's not sold in capsules. At least I've never seen it. You buy it in the cake section at the supermarket. It's been used for a large number of uses over the years - from cleaning to a heartburn remedy. As an athletic aid just another one. It's all the same stuff.

 

[fmk_RoI]

You are required to list all supplements when you complete the anti-doping sample form.

You're not required. Even that ASADA link you offered makes that clear:

You will be asked to provide information on prescription and non-prescription medications, vitamins, herbal products, food supplements, and any other substances you have used within the last seven (7) days. These are recorded on the Doping Control Test Form.

Under the International Standard for Therapeutic Use Exemptions, there are no longer substances or methods on the Prohibited List that require a Declaration of Use.

Consider declaring any substance used in the last seven days. Not declaring use may affect results management, particularly in an application for a retrospective Therapeutic Use Exemption.

 

[veganrob]

Suppose an unnamed person purchases probenecid from a pharmacist. They discuss side effects. The pharmacist says this can be ameliorated by taking bicarbonate of soda. Offers to sell gelatine capsules for said purpose and counts them out on same pill counter because no need to be concerned about cross contamination.

Well no need for capsules as you can just mix it with water and drink. Instructions right on the box.

 

[Almeisan]

There is acid in the stomach.

 

[Alex Simmons/RST]

You're not required. Even that ASADA link you offered makes that clear:

This has nothing to do with TUEs. Try again.

 

[Colonel]

Cycling SA want SAIDS to explain how it took four months to notify Impey he was positive:



link

CSA = comedy roadshow that doesnt go on the road.

 

[Netserk]

It's not sold as a supplement though. And it's not sold in capsules. At least I've never seen it. You buy it in the cake section at the supermarket. It's been used for a large number of uses over the years - from cleaning to a heartburn remedy. As an athletic aid just another one. It's all the same stuff.

And fertilizer is not sold as explosives....

 

[Catwhoorg]

http://cyclingtips.com.au/2014/08/u...o-deciding-if-appeal-with-cas-will-be-lodged/

Actually that's sensible.
They can't decide on an appeal until they see the grounds the decision was made, and what they would appeal over.

 

[Merckx index]

“Impey presented expert evidence from pharmacy professionals, pharmacologists and pharmacokinetic experts confirming that cross-contamination caused by the use of the pill-counter in such manner was plausible,” he explained.

“Under the Anti-Doping Rules, SAIDS is required to vigorously pursue all anti-doping rule violations within our jurisdiction. We did so and checked the veracity of Impey’s account to the fullest extent possible. We sought opinions from our own experts, which confirmed that cross-contamination was indeed possible in the manner proposed by Impey’s experts.”

This is very interesting. If he really did consult pharmacokinetic experts, then he didn't just claim the powder could have contaminated the capsules, but provided an estimate of how much contamination was possible, and showed that this was consistent with the level he tested for. As I said before, I didn't think he could get such analysis and testimony done in the time since the end of June, but looks as though he did. I will be very interested to see the numbers.

Wrt NaHCO3, you don't ingest it in baked products, because during the baking process it breaks down and releases C02. That's the whole point of using it. However, I agree that it isn't or shouldn't be classified as a supplement, as sodium, bicarbonate and carbonate ions all exist naturally in the body.

I guess you could have an argument, though. Doping frequently involves taking a substance found in the body, such as EPO or testosterone, supplementing the body's natural synthetic processes. Bicarbonate ion is produced in the blood, for example, from C02, and taking bicarbonate could be regarded in the same light. I myself wouldn't regard it as doping, but it could be debated, I suppose.

 

[TheGame]

Suppose an unnamed person purchases probenecid from a pharmacist. They discuss side effects. The pharmacist says this can be ameliorated by taking bicarbonate of soda. Offers to sell gelatine capsules for said purpose and counts them out on same pill counter because no need to be concerned about cross contamination.

Bingo.....

 

[Parker]

Suppose an unnamed person purchases probenecid from a pharmacist. They discuss side effects. The pharmacist says this can be ameliorated by taking bicarbonate of soda. Offers to sell gelatine capsules for said purpose and counts them out on same pill counter because no need to be concerned about cross contamination.

If this is the case then two questions present themselves:

a) why did he buy the probenecid and the capsules two hours apart
b) if the bicarbonate of soda was to ameliorate the probenecid, why did he need the capsules. A spoon gets the job done.

 

[westerner]

Just a quick google of 'pharmacies in Durban' and there are many. The listing site had this quote:

'There's a pharmacy on every corner', but find which chemists in Durban have what you need - from Baby Clinics to prescription drugs.

So my questions/what I find odd is

1. why not just call around and find what you want in the first place (is this item hard to find in SA?)
2. seems odd a pharmacist would take a number and call a client later in the day for such a small item, that the client probably picked up at the pharmacy down the road?

...or could have happened as explained.

He went early in the morning to buy them, he said, but the pharmacy did not have any. Later, the pharmacist called Impey to say that he found some and Impey returned in the afternoon to buy them.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2014...ing-positive-blame_343150#FLQEwf6Ijb6fegid.99

 

[Granville57]

The idea that he was using sodium bicarbonate as an ergogenic is bogus. A few capsules would have no effect. A 75kg rider would have to consume 25g. Picture that as the number of capsules to hold an extra large scoop of sports drink powder. One of the side effects of using an efficacious amount is what research on the subject often describes as "explosive diarrhea." The only sprint Impey would be winning is a sprint to the nearest bush by the side of the road.

How about we give this some more attention?

Wiki has Impey listed at 70kg.

Everything I've read indicates that recommended dosages of sodium bicarbonate would be 200-300mg per kg of body weight.

Even on the low end of that scale, that would mean 14 grams, or about one tablespoon of powder.

Based on common empty capsule sizing, it's my understanding that that would equate to roughly 20 to 25 caps, depending on the individual size of the capsule. This would obviously increase to 30 or more caps if using the 300mg/kg ratio.

That would be one helluva lot of pill popping, no?
Does this make any sense?

My numbers may be wrong, but if not, I would love for Impey to publicly state exactly what his proven methods in the past have been regarding the use of sodium bicarbonate.

How much does he usually take?
How long before an event?
Over what period of time?

This isn't EPO we're talking about, so should there really be any great trade secrets behind its consumption?

I just find the method of delivery in this case to be somewhat questionable.


Some references:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/soda-for-sprints-sodium-bicarb-as-a-supplement.html
http://convert-to.com/753/baking-powder-conversion-plus-nutritional-facts.html
http://www.capsuleconnection.com/capsules

 

[TailWindHome]

I just find the method of delivery in this case to be somewhat questionable.

Yeah. But it may be easier to swallow a handful of pills (maybe a couple with each bottle in a longer race) than taking a mouthful of powder of a spoon (stuff tastes awful)

There's an interesting post from a former Paralympic world champion over in BikeRadar on the same topic.

I get the impression that BoS is as commonplace as Beetroot juice.





Small detail - baking powder and baking soda aren't the same.