- Dec 11, 2013
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TheGame said:But as previously sourced it does help counteract the side-effects of probenecid, so i'm sticking with that theory.
The Kevin Bacon method of mystery solving.
TheGame said:But as previously sourced it does help counteract the side-effects of probenecid, so i'm sticking with that theory.
Impey’s defense focused on a pharmacy in Durban, on the country’s eastern coast. A report in The Star newspaper explained that the pharmacist gave Probenecid to another customer and sold Impey empty gel capsules with contaminated hands. The Durban pharmacist took the blame and produced cash register receipts showing the times of the purchases.
We presented the hearing with hard facts, factual proof. This was no ‘maybe’ or ‘could have been.’”
Parker said:If this is the case then two questions present themselves:
a) why did he buy the probenecid and the capsules two hours apart
b) if the bicarbonate of soda was to ameliorate the probenecid, why did he need the capsules. A spoon gets the job done.
Granville57 said:How about we give this some more attention?
Wiki has Impey listed at 70kg.
Everything I've read indicates that recommended dosages of sodium bicarbonate would be 200-300mg per kg of body weight.
Even on the low end of that scale, that would mean 14 grams, or about one tablespoon of powder.
Based on common empty capsule sizing, it's my understanding that that would equate to roughly 20 to 25 caps, depending on the individual size of the capsule. This would obviously increase to 30 or more caps if using the 300mg/kg ratio.
That would be one helluva lot of pill popping, no?
Does this make any sense?
My numbers may be wrong, but if not, I would love for Impey to publicly state exactly what his proven methods in the past have been regarding the use of sodium bicarbonate.
How much does he usually take?
How long before an event?
Over what period of time?
This isn't EPO we're talking about, so should there really be any great trade secrets behind its consumption?
I just find the method of delivery in this case to be somewhat questionable.
Some references:
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/soda-for-sprints-sodium-bicarb-as-a-supplement.html
http://convert-to.com/753/baking-powder-conversion-plus-nutritional-facts.html
http://www.capsuleconnection.com/capsules
Tonton said:Agree. I don't believe in the one person theory. I find more likely that an accomplice bought probenecid two hours before Impey got the capsule to make possible the cross-contamination defense in the event that Impey got caught. Also, the bicarbonate of soda allegation may be getting too much of our attention. Maybe it was just the first thing that came to Impey's mind. I don't believe anyone would play pharmacist, waste time and money to make bicarbonate of soda pills: a spoon gets the job done as you wrote...
Merckx index said:From the VN link:
How did the contaminated hands version ever get out, if it was the pill counter? If Impey got expert testimony that actually proved that the amount of possible contamination was consistent with the level he tested for, it would have been based on analysis of the pill counter. That being the case, why wouldn’t the pill counter story have been firmly established from the very beginning? Why would the contaminated hands version ever see the light of day?
Might be sloppy reporting, but seems a little strange that the journalists couldn't get their facts straight. Were they not initially told the source of contamination, and just assumed it was the hands? Would like to hear one of the journos explain why they initially reported the story in this manner.
Well, no, this is not correct, it is "could have been". He might have demonstrated that his tested level could have resulted from contamination, that the level of possible contamination could have resulted in the detected level, but this is not factual proof. Factual proof in a case like this would require showing that the prob in his body actually originated from that pharmacy, and that he never purchased prob itself from that pharmacy. That is not possible, no analysis can determine where the prob came from.
I’m not saying that he doesn’t have a good case, he might well have when we finally see the analysis. But a winning case in this situation can't be based on factual proof. At best, he can show that contamination could account for his test results. Or possibly, that use of the pill counter always results in this level of contamination, that anyone purchasing capsules right after the counter was used for prob would have had the capsules contaminated to the level needed.
But I think this would be very hard to establish. Contamination is something that will vary from incident to incident, no scientific analysis can determine how much contamination occurred in a particular incident. Maybe they determined a minimum level that they felt would always result from the pill counter, but this seems dubious to me. That would require a carefully controlled study. I doubt they did this, but we will see, or not.
Again, the Contador case is instructive. Factual proof would be having a meat sample from an actual dinner, and witness testimony that he ate that meat. He didn't have that kind of proof, and sought to show that meat contamination was possible. He couldn't establish that, either, but athletes in other countries could at least demonstrate that contaminated meat was possible. They got off not because of factual proof, but because they were able to make a reasonable case for possibility. That is almost certainly what Impey did here.
In the appeal, the UCI and WADA argued that Contador had failed to meet the burden of proof
of establishing the means by which the substance entered his system. The rules provide that it is
for the athlete to establish how the substance came to be in his or her system. This requires proof on the standard of balance of probabilities. The CAS panel stated that the athlete’s burden could not reasonably be higher than that (as is the case with the prosecution, who are required to
establish the commission of an anti-doping violation on the standard of ‘comfortable satisfaction’)
In Contador, however,
the athlete attempted[/B] to raise a number of alternative explanations for the
presence of Clenbuterol in his sample. The CAS Panel stated that:
…if, after carefully assessing all the alternative scenarios invoked by one of the parties as to the
source of entry of the Prohibited Substance into the Athlete’s system, several of the alleged sources are deemed possible, they have to be weighed against one another to determine whether, on balance, the more likely source is the one invoked by the Athlete. However, in the extreme
situation that multiple theories were held to be equally probable, the burden of proof, i.e., the risk
that a certain fact upon which a party relies cannot be established, would rest with the Athlete.
Tonton said:Agree. I don't believe in the one person theory. I find more likely that an accomplice bought probenecid two hours before Impey got the capsule to make possible the cross-contamination defense in the event that Impey got caught....
Tonton said:Agree. I don't believe in the one person theory. I find more likely that an accomplice bought probenecid two hours before Impey got the capsule to make possible the cross-contamination defense in the event that Impey got caught. Also, the bicarbonate of soda allegation may be getting too much of our attention. Maybe it was just the first thing that came to Impey's mind. I don't believe anyone would play pharmacist, waste time and money to make bicarbonate of soda pills: a spoon gets the job done as you wrote...
mrhender said:UCI and eventually CAS would might have deemed otherwise..
I'am looking forward to more facts released in this case..
DirtyWorks said:I not so sure the UCI will appeal. Stranger things have happened.
mrhender said:If he is/was that clever. It would mean that he would also be certain that The Independent Anti Doping Tribunal would accept this as "outside" strict liability...
To prove it possible is not enough.. You have to prove it more likely than doping... So are you saying that Impey has local phamacists and the national anti-doping agency in his pocket.. Let alone the issue of appeals he might face in CAS? All this for using a masking-agent which has been easily detectable for many years?
Balance of probabilities....
Tonton said:No. But I wonder if someone smart could send an accomplice buy some of the PED just before the someone goes to the pharmacy to get a prescription, hence making the cross-contamination defense possible if caught.
proffate said:yes, it would be quite a lot of capsules to hit .3g/kg. He may have been using serial loading[1], i.e. spreading the dosage out over the course of a day. Sodium bicarbonate is high in sodium, is it possible to use it as a homemade electrolyte capsule? Nuun uses it in their tabs[2]. Nuun/hammer/etc. are silly expensive relative to their relatively run-of-the-mill ingredients. Even if Impey wanted to use it purely for the acid-buffering effect, it would make sense to increase the portability to the point you could take some along with you on the bike. His 7 minute maximal effort comes at the end of 4-6hrs of riding, so loading beforehand might be less effective.
[1] http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23001395
[2] http://www.nuun.com/products
Parker said:Why would someone with this detailed level of planning and foresight just not stop taking the drug in good time before a race where he was near certain to be tested? It's like an F1 team Covering every detail and then turning up at the wrong track. He's managed several years without testing positive, so why the complex plot all of a sudden.
Merckx index said:This is very interesting. If he really did consult pharmacokinetic experts, then he didn't just claim the powder could have contaminated the capsules, but provided an estimate of how much contamination was possible, and showed that this was consistent with the level he tested for. As I said before, I didn't think he could get such analysis and testimony done in the time since the end of June, but looks as though he did. I will be very interested to see the numbers.
Wrt NaHCO3, you don't ingest it in baked products, because during the baking process it breaks down and releases C02. That's the whole point of using it. However, I agree that it isn't or shouldn't be classified as a supplement, as sodium, bicarbonate and carbonate ions all exist naturally in the body.
I guess you could have an argument, though. Doping frequently involves taking a substance found in the body, such as EPO or testosterone, supplementing the body's natural synthetic processes. Bicarbonate ion is produced in the blood, for example, from C02, and taking bicarbonate could be regarded in the same light. I myself wouldn't regard it as doping, but it could be debated, I suppose.
neineinei said:He tested positive the day of the TT (Feb. 6). He was also tested Feb. 8 (no race) and Feb. 9 (road race), but the tests "yielded no adverse results".
He might have been taking his homefilled gelatine capsules all these days, but only the one/ones he took on the day of the TT was contaminated? Or did he only take them for the TT, or prior to the South African Championships so that the probenecid was out of his system by the 8.
http://www.darylimpey.com/News/DisplayNewsItem.aspx?niid=34129
The sodium bicarbonate in the Nuun tablets might be there to make them fizzy when put into water, to better disolve.
Some have made a point of him not declairing the capsules on the doping test form. But do we know that as a fact?
That's 6 capsules, every half hour, over approximately 3 hours.TailWindHome said:So 70kg athlete say a 15g dose
3g every half hour
6 500mg capsules.
Doesn't seem unreasonable
That part of the story seems a bit wanting to me. If these pills were so important to Impey (and have we anything to suggest that they were not important to him?), then that raises a few more questions.westerner said:So my questions/what I find odd is
1. why not just call around and find what you want in the first place (is this item hard to find in SA?)
2. seems odd a pharmacist would take a number and call a client later in the day for such a small item, that the client probably picked up at the pharmacy down the road?
...or could have happened as explained.
He went early in the morning to buy them, he said, but the pharmacy did not have any. Later, the pharmacist called Impey to say that he found some and Impey returned in the afternoon to buy them.
neineinei said:The sodium bicarbonate in the Nuun tablets might be there to make them fizzy when put into water, to better disolve.
Parker said:...and concocting ever more elaborate alternative scenarios.
Alex Simmons/RST said:No one is suggesting that bicarb is doping (and I know you aren't suggesting it is). WADA define doping, so we don't have to make that subjective decision. Bicarb clearly isn't.
But in the manner it is used, it is a supplement and should have been noted on his anti-doping paperwork.
So many things are available as supplements that occur in the body or available via regular food or other means. e.g. is a Vitamin D pill a supplement? Yes, it is.
And so is bicarb. Indeed the AIS lists bicarb in it supplements classification under Group A:
http://www.ausport.gov.au/ais/nutrition/supplements/classification
along with e.g. probiotics, iron, beet juice, creatine.
It's the contamination of the caps that I'm interested in understanding plausibility of based on the data we do have:
- timing of probable use (IOW when one would have taken bicarb tabs)
- the likely level of contamination of caps filled by Impey himself
- the metabolism of probenecid
- level required to trigger a positive
- the subsequent negative tests
Merckx index said:So it would be a very small portion of one tablet.
Granville57 said:Could you clarify this a bit?
Do you mean, a very small portion of the CONTENTS of one 500mg tablet?
Which raises anther question:
Are the tablets already sealed, in one piece, when being processed through a counting machine, or are they open, in separate halves?
I'm not clear on how the contamination could occur. Would it be on the exterior or interior of the capsules?
And could you further define "a very small portion"?
Thanks
proffate said:I think focusing on the baking soda supplementation is distracting from the real story, which is determining whether cross-contamination is plausible or probable.