In Blood Stepped: The History Of Blood Doping In Sport

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

"We have the knowledge to do what Moser and Conconi did" is a quote from van den Hoogenband, the journalist put it on top of the article.

Moser and Conconi did … the Hour record. Moser and Conconi did … lactate level measurements. Moser and Conconi did … some great work cooking spaghetti al dente.

"We" have the knowledge to do … you have to choose. Because "what Moser and Conconi did" covers a lot.

Who is this we, though? Is it Panasonic? Clearly, from what is said, it isn’t. Isn’t it true that the ‘we’ referred to is the medical/scientific community in the Netherlands?

Is Van den Hoogenband even right to claim that the knowledge exists in the Netherlands? IIRC didn’t that other famous Dutch squad, PDM, claim that they imported the knowledge from Italy? Why didn’t they source it local, if it was there?

Hoogenband thinks that sport in general an cycling particularly make too little use of medical science.

Not a particularly controversial statement given what we know about how sport in general and cycling in particular changed through the 80s and into the 90s.

He also complains about the lack of funding for the sport.

I have already referenced economics as an inhibitor here, you on the other hand think that because a company selling hi-fis, VCRs and computers also had a biomed division that means that Peter Post had his own private blood bank, provided for him by Panasonic.

In 1985 Panasonic had fewer that two dozen riders. A blood bank, even a small private one, that’s surely going to have surplus capacity if it doesn’t have even two dozen users, no? So was this surplus capacity being sold on? To, oh, I don’t know, maybe a couple of football teams, another federation, whoever? Am I joining the right dots here?

Ironically nowadays others complain for the lack of funding for doping control in the Netherlands.

Alanis Morissette has much to answer for.

In the article vd Hoogenband is called an authority in cycling since eight years which means he was involved in the 70's.

He also appears to be an authority on football and judo and sawing bones.

Harm Kuipers was also doing his thing at the university of Maastricht. I allready posted this article in which you can read he has knowledge and interest in transfusions in 1976.

Ah, topical interest, temporal coincidence, geographic proximity. Men have been hung for less. And hung themselves using less.

Harm Kuipers speed skating career just smells like transfusions.

"I’ll know it when I smell it."

These two guys have got all links to panasonic deleted from google history.

Oh FFS, is this now going to be a thing, is this now going to be evidence? "They’ve deleted the evidence! They’re guilty!"

There was never the intention to let Oosterbosch make an attemp on the hour record. It was only a suggestion from van den Hoogenband to make his point. I mentioned Oosterbosch because he is considered one of the first epo death.

You said that (and I’ll quote): "He thinks Bert Oosterbosch is a likely candidate in his squad for the hour record." Now, the actual quote having been put in front of people, you’re accepting that Van den Hoogenband was just making a point, wasn’t actually saying he thought Bert Oosterbosh a likely candidate for the hour? Do you have to be challenged in a similar fashion on everything or is there any chance of you getting it right first time in future?

Finally, if all this proves blood doping, please, please, please explain to me Van den Hoogenband’s stated position on the issue of doping given that this conversation allegedly proving Panasonic’s blood doping programme took place just weeks after the IOC had declared blood doping to be doping? Why is he publicly talking about doping when he’s publicly saying he’s against it and it isn’t needed? Wouldn’t that be the very definition of ironic?

 

[fmk_RoI]

blood doping not even needed, the eastern bloc women sports strategy was to make them more masculine than 90% of todays male cyclists, and here you go (lots of them had substantial health problems because of that... well known and documented, even a "social phenomenon" that inspired several films)

Facts schmacts. It was doping: blood, HGH, tesosterone, cortisone, AICAR, EPO, MSG, cocaine, cobalt, strychnine, melodium and Neurofen. It smelled of it and you can't beat the smell test when it comes to proof.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Recent Danish inquiry on the CSC and Riis nevertheless took a look on the claims and came to the conclusion that Riis was at least very familiar with the method:

Bjarne Riis admits to the investigative group to have used blood doping once in his active career at Team Telekom. This happened according to Riis in connection with Tour de France in 1997. Earlier in the year, the blood was drawn at Riis’ home in Luxembourg and was re-injected at a hotel room – probably in the middle of the Tour in 1997. Riis does not remember exactly when. A doctor at Team Telekom assisted Riis with the blood doping.

Totally forgot that story. At least we now have clear evidence for transfusions being back as early as 97. Presumably as a means of getting around the H-test?

(I will need to check later, but didn't the Freiburg report have Henrich and the other Telekom doctors not playing with transfusions until the following year? But then hardly anyone spoke to the Freiburg investigators.)

 

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Insightful stuff on Panasonic, Kuipers and v.d. Hoogenband.
How was Breukink able to stay so close to Hampsten in the Giro of 1988?
Well, likely by doing the same thing Hampsten was doing.
One 'problem' when assessing this period is that this would also roughly be the time when EPO starts invading the propeloton.


On a complete side, this deleting stuff from google history is becoming a real thing.
Ca. one year ago I was reading up on the Dutch Dr. Castoings, him accusing Lemond of using EPO, and Rini Wagtmans (on behalf of Lemond) then threatening Castoings with a legal case if he didn't retract. I was finding a bunch of press releases and some discussion on cycling fora.
A few months later I searched again, and all the press releases had disappeared.

invade?

if these was an 'invasion' it was later

fair enough, with more time on my hands I'd have written "starts making occasional inroads into the propeloton"

The problem remains the same though in that for some of the top performances of the 87-90 period, for all endurance sports, it is difficult to say if they're down to old school transfusions or to EPO.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

The problem remains the same though in that for some of the absolute top performances of the 87-90 period (for all endurance sports) it is difficult to say with certainty if they're down to old school transfusions or to EPO.

Or even down to transfusions or EPO.

 

[sniper]

blood doping not even needed, the eastern bloc women sports strategy was to make them more masculine than 90% of todays male cyclists, and here you go (lots of them had substantial health problems because of that... well known and documented, even a "social phenomenon" that inspired several films)

Facts schmacts. It was doping: blood, HGH, tesosterone, cortisone, AICAR, EPO, MSG, cocaine, cobalt, strychnine, melodium and Neurofen. It smelled of it and you can't beat the smell test when it comes to proof.

There's always the horse's mouth. The best proof there is. See the links in the OP for multiple cases in point.

 

[fmk_RoI]

blood doping not even needed, the eastern bloc women sports strategy was to make them more masculine than 90% of todays male cyclists, and here you go (lots of them had substantial health problems because of that... well known and documented, even a "social phenomenon" that inspired several films)

Facts schmacts. It was doping: blood, HGH, tesosterone, cortisone, AICAR, EPO, MSG, cocaine, cobalt, strychnine, melodium and Neurofen. It smelled of it and you can't beat the smell test when it comes to proof.

There's always the horse's mouth. The best proof there is. See the links in the OP for multiple cases in point.

The links in the OP do not cover Coe and Kratochvílová. I would remember mentioning either of them. So do you think you could cut out this saying that something is stated somewhere when it isn't? Such mendacity is not helpful if we all want the same thing, greater clarity on what was really going on.

 

[Tienus]

@fmk
I kindly request you again to refrain from posting my thoughts or imaginations.

You said that (and I’ll quote)

I would still say that because that's what you can make up from the article. If I was a quoting I would have made that clear in my post.

if all this proves blood doping

Again I do not claim to prove anything. All I do is post a link to what I think is an interesting on topic article.

 

[sniper]

Re:

@fmk
I kindly request you again to refrain from posting my thoughts or imaginations.

You said that (and I’ll quote)

I would still say that because that's what you can make up from the article. If I was a quoting I would have made that clear in my post.

if all this proves blood doping

Again I do not claim to prove anything. All I do is post a link to what I think is an interesting on topic article.

amen.

fmk rol:
we all want the same thing, greater clarity on what was really going on.

yes we all want the same thing.
but the way we want to get to that point clearly differs from one poster to the other.
Some want to get there by means of open discussion. You seem to want to get there by shouting people down whilst (deliberately?) misrepresenting their thoughts. The above is just one of many cases in point where you put some kind of "proof"-claim into the mouth of a poster who's not claiming to have any proof.

Perhaps you still don't fully grasp the difference between ((un)informed) speculation, indications, evidence, proof, etc. You can't lump them all together.

It's a discussion forum. Not a court of law. Get over it.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

All I do is post a link to what I think is an interesting on topic article.

So in that Van den Hoogenband interview that you posted, what is the part that relates to blood transfusions? Or do you accept, as I have tried to point out, that it is not clear he is talking about transfusions and it is in fact more likely that he is not talking about transfusions?

 

[Tienus]

So in that Van den Hoogenband interview that you posted, what is the part that relates to blood transfusions? Or do you accept, as I have tried to point out, that it is not clear he is talking about transfusions and it is in fact more likely that he is not talking about transfusions?

Obviously he does not specifically mention transfusions. He says that they could do the same as Conconi and Moser and is talking about doing it in a laboratory. I actually think he is talking about the complete package of training, nutrition and all sorts of doping. The Conconi story is part of your trilogie which is another link to the topic.

Most names on that medical team in Maastricht can easily be linked to blood doping before the epo era until well into the epo test era. In 1985 Joost de Maesenaar was also involved with the preparation of Panasonic team, he is now the Astana team doctor after working for CSC / Riis.
While working as a doctor for DAF Trucks Harm Kuipers diagnosed van der Poel with anaemia in 1982 just days before the tour start.

 

[sniper]

Good spots re: de Maesenaar and Kuipers-v.d. Poel

Kuipers is from the Jos Hermens school of thought.
a. Take every opportunity you get to downplay the importance of doping to performance.
https://www.ntvg.nl/system/files/publications/1988120440001a.pdf
http://deleunstoel.nl/home.php?artikel_id=3592
b. Dope the absolute *** out of your athletes.

Following his skate carreer, he studied medicine, btw. Like Heiden.
Wanna see him lie through his teeth? Watch this:
https://www.mumc.nl/actueel/mumc-tv/1847637896001-harmkuipersoverdopingindesport

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Obviously he does not specifically mention transfusions.

Obviously. They were illegal. That would be doping. Which he says he's down on.

He says that they could do the same as Conconi and Moser and is talking about doing it in a laboratory.

I'll provide the main quote again, perhaps you could help by pointing out the bit that relates to "doing it in a laboratory." TIA. It's not that I don't trust you when you say he said it, but you know how it is with people saying such and such said this when he didn't.

"Er wordt vreselijk veel gepraat over de begeleiding van Francesco Moser. Maar wat hij en die professor Conconi hebben gedaan zouden wij in Nederland moeiteloos ook kunnen. De medische wereld heeft in ons land know how genoeg. Maar de sport wil er geen geld voor uittrekken. Stel, dat ons gevraagd wordt om Bert Oosterbosch naar een werelduurrecord te sleuren. Dat kost tonnen, maar we zouden veel voor hem kunnen doen. Niet, dat we in het laboratorium een kampioen kunnen maken. Het gaat meer om de nuttige aanvullingen."

I actually think he is talking about the complete package of training, nutrition and all sorts of doping.

Or training and nutrition, without doping, given he appears to say doping is not necessary (well, to be fair, a man who today consults for an anti-doping body, he would say that, wouldn't he?).

The Conconi story is part of your trilogie which is another link to the topic.

Or it's a link to cooking spaghetti al dente, which my sources inform me Conconi and Moser were particularly good at. You read into it what you want to read into it.

Most names on that medical team in Maastricht can easily be linked to blood doping before the epo era until well into the epo test era.

Do you really want me to challenge you on the veracity of that statement? I would if I saw any point, thought for a minute you would back up such a sweeping statement with hard evidence.

In 1985 Joost de Maesenaar was also involved with the preparation of Panasonic team, he is now the Astana team doctor after working for CSC / Riis.

Do you know how many people in cycling are guilty by association? Everyone. The Kevin Bacon six degrees of separation game is very dull in cycling, you rarely need more than three steps.

While working as a doctor for DAF Trucks Harm Kuipers diagnosed van der Poel with anaemia in 1982 just days before the tour start.

Well if that doesn't prove guilt then I don't know what does. Well done! Great find! Excellent work!

 

[sniper]

facepalm.
he doesn't say it proves anything.

 

[Tienus]

I'll provide the main quote again, perhaps you could help by pointing out the bit that relates to "doing it in a laboratory."

You have posted the correct bit

a man who today consults for an anti-doping body

Does he?

Well if that doesn't prove guilt then I don't know what does. Well done! Great find! Excellent work!

Do you know what is the correct treatment for anaemia? Hint: the answer is posted by someone earlier in this topic.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

Do you know what is the correct treatment for anaemia? Hint: the answer is posted by someone earlier in this topic.

Oh! A pop quiz! Fun! But, I should warn you - my mother had anaemia only a few months before she died, and I had a long, long, long chat with the doctor about it (they love it when you ask questions, really, they do). Anyway. Treatment. Which one shall we go for? Iron? B12? Iron and B12? Or, how about some spaghetti. Al dente. I've heard you can do great things with al dente spaghetti. Even in the Netherlands. Now. What do I win?

 

[Aragon]

Recent Danish inquiry on the CSC and Riis nevertheless took a look on the claims and came to the conclusion that Riis was at least very familiar with the method:

Bjarne Riis admits to the investigative group to have used blood doping once in his active career at Team Telekom. This happened according to Riis in connection with Tour de France in 1997. Earlier in the year, the blood was drawn at Riis’ home in Luxembourg and was re-injected at a hotel room – probably in the middle of the Tour in 1997. Riis does not remember exactly when. A doctor at Team Telekom assisted Riis with the blood doping.

Totally forgot that story. At least we now have clear evidence for transfusions being back as early as 97. Presumably as a means of getting around the H-test?

(I will need to check later, but didn't the Freiburg report have Henrich and the other Telekom doctors not playing with transfusions until the following year? But then hardly anyone spoke to the Freiburg investigators.)

As many commentators have concluded, at first look, there seems to be no reason to conduct transfusions in 1990s, as EPO is a far more simple method in reaching the same goal, ie. elevated hematocrit.

This is pure unsupported speculation, but what if the transfusions were simply the most effective method in maintaining the hematocrit level extremely high or reaching the heights, the range of 60 %. As your system fights back the unnaturally high level by shutting down its own production of Erythropoietin when the hematocrit has risen above certain level, it could be more cost-effective to take the 2.5-3 % sudden leaps with blood bags than to trying to load ones body with huge amounts of rEPO, which isn't the cheapest of all products. Just the maintenance dose could be pretty high if one wanted to keep his levels in the range of 60 % during the whole three-week-long grand tour.

Pantani biographer Matt Rendell also mentions that there is a large interindividual variation in body's reaction to rEPO treatment in his brilliant biography of "Il Pirata":

A February 2001 paper published in Haematologica by the Australian team observes that although there is a common erythropoietic response to stimulation with r-EPO, "The type and quantity of globin chain synthesised during the polychromatophilic stage, which occurs after the stem cell has profilaterated under the influence if r-EPO, is under genetic control and thus can be expected to show individual variation."
This individual variation means that, in condition of widespread r-EPO doping, the best performance is likely to come not from the best athlete but from athlete with the "best" response to r-EPO treatment.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Pantani biographer Matt Rendell also mentions that there is a large interindividual variation in body's reaction to rEPO treatment in his brilliant biography of "Il Pirata"

Which is partly why answering the clinical dosage question is complicated. It varies, based on doctor, treatment, patient response.

There are stories (one at least in an autobiography IIRC ) of riders trying EPO but not getting the expected response.

On mixing blood and EPO - something similar happens today to beat ABP. A shot of EPO after drawing blood, I think, is required.

 

[Tienus]

What do I win?

Nothing, I was looking for this answer.

So, someone else's blood, the correct treatement for anaemia after all.

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re:

What do I win?

Nothing, I was looking for this answer.

So, someone else's blood, the correct treatement for anaemia after all.

Nail. Head. You're only ever looking for the answer you already have in your head, not open to challenging the appropriateness of that answer based on circumstances.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

What do I win?

Nothing, I was looking for this answer.

So, someone else's blood, the correct treatement for anaemia after all.

Nail. Head. You're only ever looking for the answer you already have in your head, not open to challenging the appropriateness of that answer based on circumstances.

or for some..it was Lemond that did it

 

[djpbaltimore]

Re:

What do I win?

Nothing, I was looking for this answer.

So, someone else's blood, the correct treatement for anaemia after all.

It should be noted that, most of the time, transfusions are not the correct treatment for anemia.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

Pantani biographer Matt Rendell also mentions that there is a large interindividual variation in body's reaction to rEPO treatment in his brilliant biography of "Il Pirata"

Which is partly why answering the clinical dosage question is complicated. It varies, based on doctor, treatment, patient response.

There are stories (one at least in an autobiography IIRC ) of riders trying EPO but not getting the expected response.

On mixing blood and EPO - something similar happens today to beat ABP. A shot of EPO after drawing blood, I think, is required.

I recently completed a BA in Psychology and took a third year course in Drugs and Sport - The Psychology of Doping. The instructor not a PhD professor, but a third year graduate student had an agenda. Her lecture materials were skewed towards accepting legalization of PEDs combined with harm reduction, as in the world of non-sporting drug use.

During the course I was unable to find much if any data other than anecdotal evidence as to the variable effect PEDs have on elite athletes i.e. the fact everyone generally responds to PEDS by gaining a performance enhancement (e.g. blood doping increasing haematocrit) but there is wide variation in specific perfomance enhancement. PEDs help some a lot, and others not so much. Then of course there is the adage you cannot make a donkey into a race horse. With PEDs though you might make the donkey the best of the donkey pack.

Other than the 2001 study referred to in Haematologica does anyone know of any studies where there is definitive conclusions as to which PEDs in rank order, actually do increase performance enhancement, but that it is variable in individual athletes depending on biological/physiological (or even psychological) factors such as metabolism, distribution, absorption and elimination and so on?

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

What do I win?

Nothing, I was looking for this answer.

So, someone else's blood, the correct treatement for anaemia after all.

Nail. Head. You're only ever looking for the answer you already have in your head, not open to challenging the appropriateness of that answer based on circumstances.

or for some..it was Lemond that did it

And he would have got away with it too if it wasn't for those pesky kids...

 

[fmk_RoI]

Re: Re:

What do I win?

Nothing, I was looking for this answer.

So, someone else's blood, the correct treatement for anaemia after all.

It should be noted that, most of the time, transfusions are not the correct treatment for anemia.

The reference to it being the correct treatment referred to whose blood to use - the patient's or a donor's. I had assumed Z used another's, not his own, this was confirmed. As I learned with my own mother's illness, a transfusion is a near last resort for many doctors.