Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[sniper]

Re: Re:

Yeah. At a barbecue recently a guy still didn't believe Lance doped. Said he was way too nice to dope. I was at my fourth beer already so I could laugh loud about it. Under different circumstances I would probably have cried.

as long as the guy didnt try to CONVINCE me that Lance didnt dope, I´d have drunk a beer with him. not laughing nor crying, nor trying to tell him he´s wrong and I´m right

Agreed.
The guy who said hat was a good friend of mine. And still is. I know there is no point in trying to convince him.
Still, inside one cannot help but think "If only you had a clue".

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

Well in fairness to Wiggins, so did he. Paris-Nice, Romandie, Dauphine in 2012. He was 3rd in the 2011 Vuelta without one too.

True.

The nature of the substance and the timing is what has got people talking.

Froome took prednisolone which is widely prescribed but that was spun around here as some exceptional "horse steroids" when it's the obvious go to prescription for inflammations, allergic reactions, etc.

At the same time though, Wiggins needed triamcinolone just before the Giro in 2013 because of the allergies that hit him so hard at that time of year. Over the years, in late April and early May, the time in question, Wiggins has:
- won the TT and come 4th overall in the Circuit de Lorraine in 2005
- won the TT at the Quatre Jours de Dunkerque in 2007
- completed four Giri and two Tours de Romandie prior to signing for Sky
- won the opening TT at the Giro d'Italia in 2010
- finished fourth in the TT at the Tour de Romandie in 2011
- won two stages (a sprint and a TT) and the GC at the Tour de Romandie in 2012

2006 is the only year where there is a significant gap in his results through the April-May period that could coincide with an issue of withdrawal from races due to illness or injury. However, all of those above results were picked up without the use of any TUE. However, in 2013, with his season focus being the GC of the Giro d'Italia (which it had never been before, he'd always raced it as a domestique and to target TT stages until then, except in 2010 when it was part of his Tour prep, and he won the opening TT, at prime allergy time, anyway), he suffers so bad that triamcinolone is the way to go, not the more widely prescribed and thereby less immediately suspicious (i.e. can be used as a PED, sure, but by being more widely prescribed is thereby a stronger argument for being used for legitimate purposes than kenacort) prednisolone which Froome used to similar effect at Romandie. This is an issue that he had apparently had for years, but it hadn't really affected his perfomances enough to be remarked upon until he was going for GCs, as he was racing at a decent standard for his level at the time throughout April and May all through his career depending on his calendar. He regularly did the Giro, maybe if he'd had a couple of DNFs where allergies had got too much for him people would be less quick to jump on him, and also of course maybe if the allergy problems hadn't been more related to late June and early July when the Tour was his target - if anything some MORE TUEs, spread at different times, or coming earlier in his career, might have helped his cause; if there was a pattern of getting a TUE for, say, salbutamol or prednisolone at some point over the summer over a few years, the triamcinolone ones would look less suspicious.

 

[Jolene]

Re:

JRanton reminds me of all the Lance Armstrong fans who could not believe all the mounting evidence.

A guy I know had a favourite racehorse trained by a trainer many suspected of doping his horses. This guy got all upset when I said his favourite horse was most likely doped. Well this trainer retired a few years later and he was quoted in the news papers stating that he doped his horses including this one in question.

When I confronted my mate about the trainer admitting to doping the horse he actually still stood his ground and said the trainer is lying and that there is no way he doped it. I couldn't believe it but that's how far some fans will go.

Who was the trainer? Curious to know if it's who many press knew about back when I worked on the tracks.

 

[gooner]

Re: Re:

Well in fairness to Wiggins, so did he. Paris-Nice, Romandie, Dauphine in 2012. He was 3rd in the 2011 Vuelta without one too.

True.

The nature of the substance and the timing is what has got people talking.

Froome took prednisolone which is widely prescribed but that was spun around here as some exceptional "horse steroids" when it's the obvious go to prescription for inflammations, allergic reactions, etc.

At the same time though, Wiggins needed triamcinolone just before the Giro in 2013 because of the allergies that hit him so hard at that time of year. Over the years, in late April and early May, the time in question, Wiggins has:
- won the TT and come 4th overall in the Circuit de Lorraine in 2005
- won the TT at the Quatre Jours de Dunkerque in 2007
- completed four Giri and two Tours de Romandie prior to signing for Sky
- won the opening TT at the Giro d'Italia in 2010
- finished fourth in the TT at the Tour de Romandie in 2011
- won two stages (a sprint and a TT) and the GC at the Tour de Romandie in 2012

2006 is the only year where there is a significant gap in his results through the April-May period that could coincide with an issue of withdrawal from races due to illness or injury. However, all of those above results were picked up without the use of any TUE. However, in 2013, with his season focus being the GC of the Giro d'Italia (which it had never been before, he'd always raced it as a domestique and to target TT stages until then, except in 2010 when it was part of his Tour prep, and he won the opening TT, at prime allergy time, anyway), he suffers so bad that triamcinolone is the way to go, not the more widely prescribed and thereby less immediately suspicious (i.e. can be used as a PED, sure, but by being more widely prescribed is thereby a stronger argument for being used for legitimate purposes than kenacort) prednisolone which Froome used to similar effect at Romandie. This is an issue that he had apparently had for years, but it hadn't really affected his perfomances enough to be remarked upon until he was going for GCs, as he was racing at a decent standard for his level at the time throughout April and May all through his career depending on his calendar. He regularly did the Giro, maybe if he'd had a couple of DNFs where allergies had got too much for him people would be less quick to jump on him, and also of course maybe if the allergy problems hadn't been more related to late June and early July when the Tour was his target - if anything some MORE TUEs, spread at different times, or coming earlier in his career, might have helped his cause; if there was a pattern of getting a TUE for, say, salbutamol or prednisolone at some point over the summer over a few years, the triamcinolone ones would look less suspicious.

Agree. Yes, the substance, timing and looking at the history of his career at the same time of the season raises serious questions.

 

[42x16ss]

Re: Re:

Well in fairness to Wiggins, so did he. Paris-Nice, Romandie, Dauphine in 2012. He was 3rd in the 2011 Vuelta without one too.

True.

The nature of the substance and the timing is what has got people talking.

Froome took prednisolone which is widely prescribed but that was spun around here as some exceptional "horse steroids" when it's the obvious go to prescription for inflammations, allergic reactions, etc.

Hog and his horse steroids. Who could forget.

I forgot to add that Wiggins was 4th (later upgraded to 3rd) in the 2009 Tour too. The idea that these TUE's for triamcinolone turned Wiggins into a GC contender is obviously false.

The timing of the TUE's does fit in with the allergy season. Not taking one for the Vuelta also fits in with that but you hardly see anyone mention that, do you? Now why is that I wonder.

Hmm. You do know that his previous best at the TDF by that point was 121st in 2006 don't you? FFS, Wigans raised eyebrows at the 2009 Giro by finishing 71st. Yes, 71st.

That performance alone had to be explained to the media, so imagine the confusion when Wigans started climbing with the best at Tour a few weeks later!

 

[42x16ss]

Re:

JRanton reminds me of all the Lance Armstrong fans who could not believe all the mounting evidence.

A guy I know had a favourite racehorse trained by a trainer many suspected of doping his horses. This guy got all upset when I said his favourite horse was most likely doped. Well this trainer retired a few years later and he was quoted in the news papers stating that he doped his horses including this one in question.

When I confronted my mate about the trainer admitting to doping the horse he actually still stood his ground and said the trainer is lying and that there is no way he doped it. I couldn't believe it but that's how far some fans will go.

The only explanation I can think of is that he's on a retainer

 

[Digger]

People thinking it was one injection - 40mg was deliberately set high, twice what joerg took, so wiggins could top up during the tour and get away with it...so it's not 'one injection'.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

Well in fairness to Wiggins, so did he. Paris-Nice, Romandie, Dauphine in 2012. He was 3rd in the 2011 Vuelta without one too.

True.

The nature of the substance and the timing is what has got people talking.

Froome took prednisolone which is widely prescribed but that was spun around here as some exceptional "horse steroids" when it's the obvious go to prescription for inflammations, allergic reactions, etc.

Hog and his horse steroids. Who could forget.

I forgot to add that Wiggins was 4th (later upgraded to 3rd) in the 2009 Tour too. The idea that these TUE's for triamcinolone turned Wiggins into a GC contender is obviously false.

The timing of the TUE's does fit in with the allergy season. Not taking one for the Vuelta also fits in with that but you hardly see anyone mention that, do you? Now why is that I wonder.

Hmm. You do know that his previous best at the TDF by that point was 121st in 2006 don't you? FFS, Wigans raised eyebrows at the 2009 Giro by finishing 71st. Yes, 71st.

That performance alone had to be explained to the media, so imagine the confusion when Wigans started climbing with the best at Tour a few weeks later!

123rd.

124th on the road.

 

[sniper]

Dear Wiggo

Whilst reading Tyler Hamilton's letter to his Mom - The Secret Race - I came across this paragraph that immediately made me think of you:

For most of his career, Riis was a decent racer: solid, but barely a contender in the big races. Then, in 1993, at twenty-seven, he went from average to incredible. He finished fifth at the Tour, with a stage win. In 1995, he finished third. By 1996, (Riis won the Tour).

page 31, The Secret Race


Here is that paragraph, if we were writing about you:

For most of his career, Wiggins was a single-minded track rider, but hopeless on the road: never a contender in the big races. Then, in 2009, at twenty-nine, he went from below average to incredible. He finished fourth at the Tour, with no stage win. In 2011, he finished third at the Vuelta. In 2012, he won the Tour.

http://dearwiggo.blogspot.com/

 

[Freddythefrog]

Re: Re:

At the same time though, Wiggins needed triamcinolone just before the Giro in 2013 because of the allergies that hit him so hard at that time of year. Over the years, in late April and early May, the time in question, Wiggins has:
- won the TT and come 4th overall in the Circuit de Lorraine in 2005
- won the TT at the Quatre Jours de Dunkerque in 2007
.......................................

.......................anything some MORE TUEs, spread at different times, or coming earlier in his career, might have helped his cause; if there was a pattern of getting a TUE for, say, salbutamol or prednisolone at some point over the summer over a few years, the triamcinolone ones would look less suspicious.

So what are you trying to tell us about this donkey to racehorse transformation ? That his doping support team didn't pick something totally random to pin their TUE nuclear dose to ? They actually picked something that looked like to the casual observer it might be legit. So what award to do we give them? The award for best moderately thought out excuse for a TUE ?

Cookson is doing deals under the table to pay Verbruggen damages because Cookson and the UCI were defaming him over the alleged collusion for Lance's 1999 post positive TUE for saddle sore cream. For that to fly, and obviously it does, because that is why Cookson is handing over money to Verbruggen, it pre-supposes that a rational person might think that when the question is asked, after the event, that Lance's medical team could not be deemed guilty of foul play in using the excuse "it was a cream for bumps on Lance's a*se which dun it mi'lud."

Of course the dodgy medical team are going to pick something that sort of flies, they would have to be Z grade cretins not to. "This TUE application for a monster shot of what virtually no medic ever uses to treat this condition (and has a side effect that Sir David Brailsford has absolutely no idea about - despite him having a degree in sports science - of causing weight loss) is for disease XYZ which our client has never suffered from before in his life."

'Aving a larrfff. The whole pre-disposition of the defences of the doping icons seems to be at a threshold where "our hero" is placed on a pedestal and every utterance from either himself or those who gain their salary from his maintained, star status, is given a five star authenticity rating, whilst any criticsm has to pass levels of probity that would baffle the common man.

 

[The Hitch]

Re: Re:

At the same time though, Wiggins needed triamcinolone just before the Giro in 2013 because of the allergies that hit him so hard at that time of year. Over the years, in late April and early May, the time in question, Wiggins has:
- won the TT and come 4th overall in the Circuit de Lorraine in 2005
- won the TT at the Quatre Jours de Dunkerque in 2007
.......................................

.......................anything some MORE TUEs, spread at different times, or coming earlier in his career, might have helped his cause; if there was a pattern of getting a TUE for, say, salbutamol or prednisolone at some point over the summer over a few years, the triamcinolone ones would look less suspicious.

'Aving a larrfff. The whole pre-disposition of the defences of the doping icons seems to be at a threshold where "our hero" is placed on a pedestal and every utterance from either himself or those who gain their salary from his maintained, star status, is given a five star authenticity rating, whilst any criticsm has to pass levels of probity that would baffle the common man.

Great summary.

 

[purcell]

Re:

Dear Wiggo

Whilst reading Tyler Hamilton's letter to his Mom - The Secret Race - I came across this paragraph that immediately made me think of you:

For most of his career, Riis was a decent racer: solid, but barely a contender in the big races. Then, in 1993, at twenty-seven, he went from average to incredible. He finished fifth at the Tour, with a stage win. In 1995, he finished third. By 1996, (Riis won the Tour).

page 31, The Secret Race


Here is that paragraph, if we were writing about you:

For most of his career, Wiggins was a single-minded track rider, but hopeless on the road: never a contender in the big races. Then, in 2009, at twenty-nine, he went from below average to incredible. He finished fourth at the Tour, with no stage win. In 2011, he finished third at the Vuelta. In 2012, he won the Tour.

It's like he's writing about Chris Froome ......

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Re: Re:

At the same time though, Wiggins needed triamcinolone just before the Giro in 2013 because of the allergies that hit him so hard at that time of year. Over the years, in late April and early May, the time in question, Wiggins has:
- won the TT and come 4th overall in the Circuit de Lorraine in 2005
- won the TT at the Quatre Jours de Dunkerque in 2007
.......................................

.......................anything some MORE TUEs, spread at different times, or coming earlier in his career, might have helped his cause; if there was a pattern of getting a TUE for, say, salbutamol or prednisolone at some point over the summer over a few years, the triamcinolone ones would look less suspicious.

So what are you trying to tell us about this donkey to racehorse transformation ? That his doping support team didn't pick something totally random to pin their TUE nuclear dose to ? They actually picked something that looked like to the casual observer it might be legit. So what award to do we give them? The award for best moderately thought out excuse for a TUE ?

What I'm trying to say about it is that the need for triamcinolone is more suspicious precisely because there isn't a history of TUEs for the same condition until he's into his 30s and targeting GTs. Jimmy Casper got a salbutamol positive quashed because he'd held a TUE for it for twelve years and failed to renew the paperwork in time - people kind of accept that, since having held a TUE his whole career dating back to juniors, for the same substance suggests it might be legit.

If throughout his pre-Sky career there were dottings of TUEs for substances used to treat allergies just as kenacort is, the kenacort TUEs would look less suspicious. People might still think it shady as all hell that they were using triamcinolone, but there would at least be a history of Wiggins suffering from allergies and needing the TUEs to deal with it throughout his career. Because there isn't such a history, and because the need for it shifts from one time of year to another (another at which he's historically been successful) based on his season's targets, the red flag of these TUEs is really obvious.

 

[pastronef]

https://www.twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

Cyclingtips podcast with David Walsh

 

[sniper]

https://www.twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

Cyclingtips podcast with David Walsh

Listened to the first minute.
Walsh still milking the Armstrong story.
Un *** believable, how is anybody still interested in that?
Do let us know if he says anything interesting somewhere in there.

 

[pastronef]

https://www.twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

Cyclingtips podcast with David Walsh

Listened to the first minute.
Walsh still milking the Armstrong story.
Un **** believable, how is anybody still interested in that?
Do let us know if he says anything interesting somewhere in there.

listen more. until 50 minutes. he says DB should resign. he says they HAVE to say what´s in the jiffy bag. he condemns the Wiggins Tues and injections.

things the clinic would support

 

[sniper]

Of course he says that. What else could he say without looking like the second coming of Phill Liggett?

Remember, Walsh unquestioningly published tripe like this:

“We agreed as a team that if a rider,suffering from asthma, got into trouble with pollen we would pull him out of the race rather thanapply for a therapeutic use exemption on his behalf."

And on multiple occasions he has endorsed Team Sky as the new revolutionary clean team.

So whatever he says now, it's a tad bit late.
It will be nice to watch him backtrack over the next coming months though.

 

[thehog]

This is too funny, Walsh at his finest! :lol:

Walsh takes exception to a question about whether people are right to be skeptical regarding Froome’s lack of results before his breakthrough performance when he finished second in the 2011 Vuelta a Espana.

He seeks clarification that the interviewer shares this scepticism then turns the question back on De Neef and asks:

“Tell me, what did you think of Froome’s performance in the Giro delle Regioni when he came over from South Africa in 2006? What did you make of those performances?”

“I’m not familiar with that performance”

“That’s the nonsense we’re dealing with here.” replied Walsh. “People have reservations but haven’t bothered to find out”

If anyone is interested in finding out more about that race, it actually took place in 2007, not 2006 as stated by Walsh. cyclingtips

He goes on to mention the ‘Russian’ rider who Froome lost out to for the win on Stage 2 of that race. It was actually Grega Bole who won that stage, who is from Slovenia.

At one point Walsh also asks De Neef ‘and how many Grand Tours has [Froome] been in?’ to which the reply is ‘I’m not sure’. Walsh seemingly delights in this saying ‘Yeah. Yeah. Exactly’ as if it is a live illustration of his point that skeptics and cynics don’t know the facts of Froome’s career as well as he does. Walsh’s next sentence aims to give us an answer to his original question on Froome’s Grand Tour participations.

“Before riding the 2011 Vuelta I think the only Grand Tour he’s ridden is that 2008 or 2009 Tour de France, I think it was 2008, with Barloworld”.

Froome did indeed ride the 2008 Tour de France but he also rode the 2009 Giro for Barloworld and the 2010 Giro for Team Sky in their maiden Grand Tour. He was disqualified from the latter for holding on to a vehicle.

While making a point about cynics not knowing the finer details of Froome’s career while clearly not knowing them himself make Walsh look like a fool. But mistakes is what they seem to be and forgivable ones to make in an interview setting.

However, when he began to discuss Froome’s performance in the 2008 Tour de France, Walsh shifted from making simple mistakes to simply being deluded.

“And you look at him in that race on Alpe d’Huez and he’s attacked and he’s away with Denis Menchov. Given that he wasn’t meant to ride that Tour, he literally got the call from his directeur sportif Claudio Corti who called him and said we need you to ride the Tour and this is like two weeks before the race. And he hasn’t been training. He hasn’t been preparing himself. He doesn’t have his road bike. He doesn’t have his cycling shoes. He’s gone home for his mother’s funeral. He comes back from that, he rides the Tour and he attacks on Alpe d’Huez.”

Chris Froome did not attack anybody on Alpe d’Huez.

Denis Menchov did attack, with Carlos Sastre, the eventual winner of the stage, but was quickly caught by the lead group containing the Schleck brothers and Cadel Evans. Not long afterward, Menchov got dropped as did Froome who managed to cling on to Menchov’s wheel for a couple of kilometres until dropping further back, eventually losing over nine minutes to the Russian by the top of the Alpe.

http://www.irishpeloton.com/2016/11/an-inconvenient-truth/

Walsh goes on to conclude this portion of the interview by saying:

“The people who have reservations [about Froome’s performances], they just haven’t a clue. Anybody who has followed the career of Froome and has a view, well I would say ‘you’ve got a responsibility to just look into his past a little bit more closely.”

Indeed David.

If you’re going to risk your journalistic integrity on a rider by claiming you believe he is clean and if you’re going to make a point about getting your facts straight – you’d better get your facts straight.

 

[sniper]

Hilarious, thanks for sharing.

Two days earlier:

@JeroenSwart

Long interview but worth the listen. My own views are 100% aligned with @DavidWalshST. Thanks for making them so clear though David.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

 

[thehog]

Re:

Hilarious, thanks for sharing.

Two days earlier:

@JeroenSwart

Long interview but worth the listen. My own views are 100% aligned with @DavidWalshST. Thanks for making them so clear though David.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

I like Swart, just when you think he is an intelligent thoughtful, well researched individual, he comes out with something as brain dead as this. I want to respect him but he keeps going all Coyle on us.

 

[Irondan]

Re: Re:

Hilarious, thanks for sharing.

Two days earlier:

@JeroenSwart

Long interview but worth the listen. My own views are 100% aligned with @DavidWalshST. Thanks for making them so clear though David.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

I like Swart, just when you think he is an intelligent thoughtful, well researched individual, he comes out with something as brain dead as this. I want to respect him but he keeps going all Coyle on us.

It was more ambiguous than brain dead. I don't think his views aligning with Walsh's means that he gobbles up all the garbage that Walsh writes every week. At least I hope he doesn't....

 

[dolophonic]

I have to say the post you put up mr Hog is the clinic at its finest... these jokers at Sky and Walsh try to bully the sceptics.. we know what we see, something not believable. Especially in regards to Froome.

Great post Hog.

 

[Digger]

The cheek of walsh to deride the interviewer for lacking knowledge about froome and details - whilst himself getting numerous facts wrong and actually making stuff up.
Even his most ardent supporters can't defend him there?
I was talking to a journalist - not kimmage - who said Walsh is so stubborn they were in a car one day and were talking about the lyrics of a song. Walsh was saying these are the lyrics, the other guy said no these are the lyrics, googled the song, showed Walsh the phone and still Walsh wouldn't accept it.

 

[gillan1969]

Re: Re:

Hilarious, thanks for sharing.

Two days earlier:

@JeroenSwart

Long interview but worth the listen. My own views are 100% aligned with @DavidWalshST. Thanks for making them so clear though David.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

I like Swart, just when you think he is an intelligent thoughtful, well researched individual, he comes out with something as brain dead as this. I want to respect him but he keeps going all Coyle on us.

It was more ambiguous than brain dead. I don't think his views aligning with Walsh's means that he gobbles up all the garbage that Walsh writes every week. At least I hope he doesn't....

mr swart making a habit of being the prop required used by the journos...by moore's 'he just lost the fat' and now being (let's forget about the dodgy fax) aligned with Walsh's new claim that Froomes pre-Vueltas results were actually predictive of the world's greatest cyclist....once is careless, twice is...............

 

[thehog]

Re: Re:

Hilarious, thanks for sharing.

Two days earlier:

@JeroenSwart

Long interview but worth the listen. My own views are 100% aligned with @DavidWalshST. Thanks for making them so clear though David.

https://twitter.com/JeroenSwart/status/801386045896069120

I like Swart, just when you think he is an intelligent thoughtful, well researched individual, he comes out with something as brain dead as this. I want to respect him but he keeps going all Coyle on us.

It was more ambiguous than brain dead. I don't think his views aligning with Walsh's means that he gobbles up all the garbage that Walsh writes every week. At least I hope he doesn't....

mr swart making a habit of being the prop required used by the journos...by moore's 'he just lost the fat' and now being (let's forget about the dodgy fax) aligned with Walsh's new claim that Froomes pre-Vueltas results were actually predictive of the world's greatest cyclist....once is careless, twice is...............

Considering the fan base Swart and Walsh could tell them Froome always had a huge engine and all he needed to do was lose the fat and they'd believe it.

Hang on, that's exactly what happened! :lol: