Is Walsh on the Sky bandwagon?

[timmers]

Where does digger make those claims

Here earlier in this thread.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1355903&postcount=1294

 

[Digger]

When you say you conversed with Walsh, was this face to face or via social media?

When he said it was logistically more difficult to dope for GTs, did you challenge that statement and if so, what response did you receive? Perhaps you could give us a summary of how the conversation went down to get a better picture.

Phone....
And I challenged him on everything - but on that he said and I know it's not accurate what he said but I am just relaying it 'that blood doping every three or four days is too hard to manage without being caught.'

Obviously this is not accurate...I was in the middle of saying this when he was called away...we haven't spoken since.

 

[coinneach]

the whole idea that you can win GTs clean because dopers allegedly disregard the marginal gains is so flawed it's insulting to my intelligence.

Depends how much dope you are talking about, and how big the marginal gains are

the marginal gains talk was introduced by lance and bruyneel, and brailsford has refined it. That Walsh looked straight through it in the case of USPS but has fallen for it in the case of Sky speaks volumes about his current credibility.

Do you think they don't make any difference?
In Tyler's book, he speaks about how important they were for Lance, to cement his position as team leader over the rest of the team, who had last years bikes/helmets etc.
And it sure irked Tyler.
I agree with you that there is a difference between "marginal gains" and "marginal gains talk"
Cyclists have always been interested in marginal gains, even if they could get non marginal gains elsewhere

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Do you think they don't make any difference?
In Tyler's book, he speaks about how important they were for Lance, to cement his position as team leader over the rest of the team, who had last years bikes/helmets etc.
And it sure irked Tyler.

Careful of confusing "marginal gains" with "narcissistic sociopathic personality disorder".

 

[sniper]

snipped
Do you think they don't make any difference?

i obviously think they do make a difference compared to amateurs.
but within the pro-peloton i think there's pretty much a level playing field in terms of marginal gains. I don't think some teams are waaay ahead of others in terms of marginal gains.

Cyclists have always been interested in marginal gains

bingo.
which is exactly why sky/brailsford's claims (or the fact that walsh buys them) are so ludicrous.

 

[Benotti69]

i obviously think they do make a difference compared to amateurs.
but within the pro-peloton i think there's pretty much a level playing field in terms of marginal gains. I don't think some teams are waaay ahead of others in terms of marginal gains.

bingo.
which is exactly why sky/brailsford's claims (or the fact that walsh buys them) are so ludicrous.

oh but Sky are. Remember Walsh let slip their 'marginal gain' of putting a dash of pineapple juice into the teams water bidons........

 

[blackcat]

oh but Sky are. Remember Walsh let slip their 'marginal gain' of putting a dash of pineapple juice into the teams water bidons........

yep. another piece of genius from brailsford.

 

[pmcg76]

Phone....
And I challenged him on everything - but on that he said and I know it's not accurate what he said but I am just relaying it 'that blood doping every three or four days is too hard to manage without being caught.'

Obviously this is not accurate...I was in the middle of saying this when he was called away...we haven't spoken since.

Ok, clearly you were somehow close enough to Walsh to be able to call him on the phone. I would imagine you are now black-listed.

Having thought about the GT v Classic doping logistics thing, I have to say Walsh's point does have a grain of reality about it. Not to say I agree with his overall sentiment but it does seem to have some legitimacy.

Lets say you want to peak for the Cobbled Classics or perhaps the Ardennes classics, then clearly you can dope up the week before at home in privacy and then just fly in the day before the event or maybe two days beforehand and do the race. You can then return home again and do another cycle before the next race.

Clearly you can dope up for the first week of a GT as well but then you will need a top-up at some point. Think the 99 Tour here and Lance v the rest. So either you do like the classic's rider and leave the GT which I think most people would agree would cause suspicion, alternatively you go the moto-man type approach which to me anyway is more complicated as it means getting the PEDs to the athlete rather than the athlete going to where the PEDs are. Think as well, that this process might have to be performed more than once over a three week period.

I am not sure how easy it would be to do a moto-man thing nowadays but even back then in 99, it is clear that the logistics involved were not to the taste of all the teams.

I am not saying it is impossible to dope at GTs, clearly it isn't but it would definitely would require more logistics to do so than for a one day race.

 

[blackcat]

edita rumsas

 

[thehog]

I am not saying it is impossible to dope at GTs, clearly it isn't but it would definitely would require more logistics to do so than for a one day race.

Maybe something only for the bigger budget teams?

Landis had an autograph hunter with a blood bag hidden in a newspaper being the delivery man.

A rest day ride, into the team bus, some CO and a bag.

Away you go.

Fairly simple stuff. If you have the money and the logistics.

 

[pmcg76]

edita rumsas

Which actually proves the point of Walsh more than anything, Rumsas had to get his wife to drive from Italy with his drugs. Logistically more complicated and risky(as she was caught) than just going home to dope. Unless the police decide to raid your house with no evidence, having drugs at home is not a huge complication.

 

[pmcg76]

Maybe something only for the bigger budget teams?

Landis had an autograph hunter with a blood bag hidden in a newspaper being the delivery man.

A rest day ride, into the team bus, some CO and a bag.

Away you go.

Fairly simple stuff. If you have the money and the logistics.

Again, you are backing up Walsh's point more than anything.

 

[blackcat]

Which actually proves the point of Walsh more than anything, Rumsas had to get his wife to drive from Italy with his drugs. Logistically more complicated and risky(as she was caught) than just going home to dope. Unless the police decide to raid your house with no evidence, having drugs at home is not a huge complication.

yeah, i appreciated this when i posted it: exception that proves the rule.


caveat: ask Race Radio, about the (perhaps apocryphal) phenomenon of wives/girlfriends being mules in July.

it might be apocyphal as i allude to. However, we do not know of the Edita Rumsases(plural) that successfully crossed borders.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that Rumsas' wife was tipped off (on) to the authorities. just a hunch, intuition.

the caveat was, she was the only one found, so we are not really getting a comprehensive sample, as we are not certain the other 180 wives/girlfriends, we not doing their own mule transport.

 

[the sceptic]

Again, you are backing up Walsh's point more than anything.

Sky dont have any money?

 

[pmcg76]

yeah, i appreciated this when i posted it: exception that proves the rule.


caveat: ask Race Radio, about the (perhaps apocryphal) phenomenon of wives/girlfriends being mules in July.

it might be apocyphal as i allude to. However, we do not know of the Edita Rumsases(plural) that successfully crossed borders.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that Rumsas' wife was tipped off (on) to the authorities. just a hunch, intuition.

I am not disagreeing with what is possible but once you get other people involved, it automatically becomes more logistically complicated than a rider doping themselves at home.

Let me make this more concise, I believe Walsh is correct when he says doping at GTs is more logistically complicated than for one day races.

I don't agree with Walsh when he say's that GTs are clean-er. I think those who are requiring dope will do whatever it takes, it will be more complicated but they will still do it.

Funny as well that the first rider to actively have their wife at races was.......LeMond.

 

[red_flanders]

I'm getting a bit lost in this, and maybe off the topic of Walsh, but here is my confusion.

Are people arguing that it's difficult to organize the logistics of doping at a GT? Probably difficult, but clearly it has been done and more than likely it can still be done–unless there is some reason why it can't be. Not sure what that would be, so not sure why this is a point of contention.

We have Horner who most people seem to think doped for the Vuelta. If so, either he or his team organized the logistics for that. We don't know know for a fact whether he was doping (though I strongly think he was), what those logistics are, or if doping what he was using. So we don't know for sure what logistics were needed.

Anyway, same applies to any team. If Horner was doing it, then someone else can do it as well. So I don't really get what the discussion is. Horner would not seem to have some kind of support other teams have–particularly teams with links to characters who have provided logistical support in the past.

 

[blackcat]

I am not disagreeing with what is possible but once you get other people involved, it automatically becomes more logistically complicated than a rider doping themselves at home.

Let me make this more concise, I believe Walsh is correct when he says doping at GTs is more logistically complicated than for one day races.

I don't agree with Walsh when he say's that GTs are clean-er. I think those who are requiring dope will do whatever it takes, it will be more complicated but they will still do it.

i agree with you.

On Lemond, might have been that it was 8thousand miles across the Atlantic eh

 

[red_flanders]

I don't agree with Walsh when he say's that GTs are clean-er. I think those who are requiring dope will do whatever it takes, it will be more complicated but they will still do it.

Additionally what should be obvious to Walsh (as it is to everyone else) is that oxygen vector doping (if that's what's still going on) will provide much more benefit in a stage race and in particular a GT than it will in a one-day race.

Tactics matter much, much more in a one-day race. In a GT "the strongest wins". You don't even need to have a good or great team if you're clearly the best.

 

[the sceptic]

I'm getting a bit lost in this, and maybe off the topic of Walsh, but here is my confusion.

Are people arguing that it's difficult to organize the logistics of doping at a GT? Probably difficult, but clearly it has been done and more than likely it can still be done–unless there is some reason why it can't be. Not sure what that would be, so not sure why this is a point of contention.

We have Horner who most people seem to think doped for the Vuelta. If so, either he or his team organized the logistics for that. We don't know know for a fact whether he was doping (though I strongly think he was), what those logistics are, or if doping what he was using. So we don't know for sure what logistics were needed.

Anyway, same applies to any team. If Horner was doing it, then someone else can do it as well. So I don't really get what the discussion is. Horner would not seem to have some kind of support other teams have–particularly teams with links to characters who have provided logistical support in the past.

I think Walsh' point was that since its logistically harder(but not impossible obviously as history shows) to dope in a GT than in the classics, the classics are the true indicator on whether a team is doping or not and since sky sucked in the classics it means they are clean.

 

[red_flanders]

Funny as well that the first rider to actively have their wife at races was.......LeMond.

They first moved to the continent together in 1981. I'm guessing it wasn't to have her there as a mule.

 

[red_flanders]

I think Walsh' point was that since its logistically harder(but not impossible obviously as history shows) to dope in a GT than in the classics, the classics are the true indicator on whether a team is doping or not and since sky sucked in the classics it means they are clean.

Thanks. I guess my point was that this is so obviously and demonstrably false that it confused me that there was any discussion of it beyond saying, "Yes, more evidence that Walsh is on the Sky bandwagon."

 

[blackcat]

i really like Chris. an individual, and one of the only athletes with personality that has not been conferred upon them from star status of the champion.

but does anyone seriously think he was clean? and what definition would one use for that.

this is what i liked Professor Charles Yesalis for. I think he had an op-ed in the NYTimes about a decade ago. Professor of health sciences at Penn State.

His specialty is roids. (are)

He said, words to the effect, that is defies credulous belief from a sentient person, to think the phenomenon of bad apples actually exists. We are looking at type A personality types, who will not surrender advantage, or succumb to a disadvantage like roids/doping/epo. They will not forgo the rewards and prixes willingly.

the barrier to entry, is willingness. Most who are of this predisposition, dont even make it to the Bassons level of making a Tour team. They opt out much earlier.

There are many Bassons who never really took their career to fruition because the writing was on the wall. Again, the sample of professional sportsmen and women, is heavily skewed. It is not a sample reflective of society, or the local rec club. I am not comparing it to criminality, but it is like going to a local penitentiary, and assuming you will get a perfect sample of personality types there.

 

[the sceptic]

Thanks. I guess my point was that this is so obviously and demonstrably false that it confused me that there was any discussion of it beyond saying, "Yes, more evidence that Walsh is on the Sky bandwagon."

Agree. But maybe we have to read his articles first to be sure

 

[red_flanders]

Agree. But maybe we have to read his articles first to be sure

Well, I did read them so I'm out on that one.

 

[pmcg76]

Additionally what should be obvious to Walsh (as it is to everyone else) is that oxygen vector doping (if that's what's still going on) will provide much more benefit in a stage race and in particular a GT than it will in a one-day race.

Tactics matter much, much more in a one-day race. In a GT "the strongest wins". You don't even need to have a good or great team if you're clearly the best.

Yep I agree with this completely.