Isaac Del Toro thread

[Sciatic]

You are rewriting history and thats your interpretation of how they are trying to frame it according to your narrative.

To me it seem quite normal to be positive about their young rider. That he almost won and that future prospects looks good. Showing grace in defeat.

It was always gonna be hard to stop Van Aert from going in the break on this stage. They only had 5 helpers left, mostly climbers. Who would they sacrifice in their team to mark him or make sure he didnt get in the break? Pulling all day to manage the gap?

They didnt know what EF or Carapaz had planned for the beginning of the climb. How should they have countered that? Please enlighten us with your wisdom.

As you say, it's hard to keep a strong rouleur from getting in a break when they are determined to do and so many riders are going off the front. I think the point many have made is that the mistake is letting that break go out to 10 minutes when UAE has the strongest team in the race (mostly climbers yes, but strong nonetheless). Even with a 10 minute head start it was never a sure thing that Van Aert would get to the top of Finestre before the leaders, and he wouldn't have been able to if starting the climb with only a 4-5 minute gap.

 

[Red Rick]

anyone else think maybe del Toro was pissed that UAE didn't chase the break down enough? giving WVA 10 minutes was suicide. if they held it to even 7 minutes he probably doesn't get over the top before the GC riders. once Yates had a gap with WVA up the road it was over even if del Toro rode his ass off. either way, EF and UAE tactics make no sense and Visma's were flawless. it also helps to randomly have the strongest rider in the race who did absolutely nothing for the first 19 days, so nobody expects it.

I have yet to be convinced Del Toro can put 2 and 2 together

 

[Sciatic]

That is an awesome compilation! And extra credit for thinking of it so quickly!

 

[Rackham]

It's possible UAE didn't believe Van Aert would clear Finestre ahead of the 3 favorites. Even with a ten minute lead.

 

[Sciatic]

I guess another way to think about this is to be thankful to UAE and Del Toro to give us so much cycling to talk about in our post-GT lull and while waiting for the Dauphine to start Yes, I will be watching Slovenia, but wish they had a better start list.

 

[Tricycle Rider]

That is an awesome compilation! And extra credit for thinking of it so quickly!

While some scenes make me very uncomfortable A Clockwork Orange is such a classic. As are/were Voeckler's faces.

 

[Red Rick]

It's possible UAE didn't believe Van Aert would clear Finestre ahead of the 3 favorites. Even with a ten minute lead.

I don't think they did. I think they just pruned everything remotely to do with Simon Yates from the decision tree from the get go.

 

[Salvarani]

As you say, it's hard to keep a strong rouleur from getting in a break when they are determined to do and so many riders are going off the front. I think the point many have made is that the mistake is letting that break go out to 10 minutes when UAE has the strongest team in the race (mostly climbers yes, but strong nonetheless). It was never a sure thing that Van Aert would get to the top of Finestre before the leaders, and wouldn't have been able to if starting the climb with only a 4-5 minute gap.

I dont think putting their guys to control break or pace the peloton on the front for most of the stage before the climb would have been really wise either. It wasnt their plan going into the stage and they didnt have the strength to control Van Aert from not going in it. Or anyone else for that matter.

Their tactics was most likely to have the team pace on Finestre for as long as they could, as that would have also been to the strength of the riders they had left in the race. So you let the break go by a lot, to focus on your strengths later in the stage. I cant really knock that approach going in before stage and not knowing the outcome.

However, EF and Carapaz had most likely identified this and made sure to crush that on the beginning of the climb. That UAE wasnt gonna be allowed to dictate the pace for most of the climb. So they went all-in very early, which nobody had really predicted.

UAE just didnt foresee or thought EF and Carapaz would be that bold to go from the bottom, I believe. Something that is out of their control.

Had they known that they might have played it differently, but we will never know that.

All of the above is the perfect storm for Visma and Yates being very strong on Finestre. Because their plan was mostly likely to have Yates attack at some point on Finistre and had put Van Aert infront to be able to help later. Either to increase the gap or perhaps assisting Yates to come back, if that would have been the case.

They also didnt know EF was just gonna throw the kitchen sink in at the beginning of the climb. That Yates was able to ride away from the others and distancing them with a huge gap was dreamland. The cherry on top to have Van Aert stationed as neatly as he was to cruise to victory.

 

[Sciatic]

I dont think putting their guys to control break or pace the peloton on the front for most of the stage before the climb would have been really wise either. It wasnt their plan going into the stage and they didnt have the strength to control Van Aert from not going in it. Or anyone else for that matter.

Their tactics was most likely to have the team pace on Finestre for as long as they could, as that would have also been to the strength of the riders they had left in the race. So you let the break go by a lot, to focus on your strengths later in the stage. I cant really knock that approach going in before stage and not knowing the outcome.

However, EF and Carapaz had most likely identified this and made sure to crush that on the beginning of the climb. That UAE wasnt gonna be allowed to dictate the pace for most of the climb. So they went all-in very early, which nobody had really predicted.

UAE just didnt foresee or thought EF and Carapaz would be that bold to go from the bottom, I believe. Something that is out of their control.

Had they known that they might have played it differently, but we will never know that.

All of the above is the perfect storm for Visma and Yates being very strong on Finestre. Because their plan was mostly likely to have Yates attack at some point on Finistre and had put Van Aert infront to be able to help later. Either to increase the gap or perhaps assisting Yates to come back, if that would have been the case.

They also didnt know EF was just gonna throw the kitchen sink in at the beginning of the climb. That Yates was able to ride away from the others and distancing them with a huge gap was dreamland. The cherry on top to have Van Aert stationed as neatly as he was to cruise to victory.

That makes sense as well. That's what made the stage so interesting (and I'm sure exasperating for some): there were so many overlapping race dynamics going on, made more complicated by there being 3 teams, not just 2, still with a shot on the final day of racing.

 

[Sciatic]

While some scenes make me very uncomfortable A Clockwork Orange is such a classic. As are/were Voeckler's faces.

Seeing it for the first time as an older teen in a theater, with no idea what it was about was, let's say, eye opening!

 

[CyclistAbi]

Del Toro hence just followed team orders, stick to Carapaz no matter what.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7eul_Vt6SZY

 

[Rackham]

Seeing it for the first time as an older teen in a theater, with no idea what it was about was, let's say, eye opening!

It's an eminently quotable movie. In fact we should use the term droogies when referring to teammates in cycling instead of doms or gregarios.

Yates had way better droogies on Saturday. Well, one in particular.

 

[red_flanders]

I have yet to be convinced Del Toro can put 2 and 2 together

The guy rode a great race until the last day. Yates took what, 4-5 mins off the all time record on Finestre?

Seems pretty harsh to say about a young, exciting guy who did most everything right, and rode well beyond his years.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

The guy rode a great race until the last day. Yates took what, 4-5 mins off the all time record on Finestre?

Seems pretty harsh to say about a young, exciting guy who did most everything right, and rode well beyond his years.

1:18 on Pablo Torres, not 4-5 minutes

 

[red_flanders]

1:18 on Pablo Torres, not 4-5 minutes

Heard 4-5 on the move podcast. Thanks for the correction. Still a great ride obviously.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

5 minutes on Froome, the slowest fastest ascent to date

 

[Sciatic]

5 minutes on Froome, the slowest fastest ascent to date

I don’t know how this would alter the final time, but for sure none of those previous ascents had such a rocket pace at the start.

 

[Sciatic]

The guy rode a great race until the last day. Yates took what, 4-5 mins off the all time record on Finestre?

Seems pretty harsh to say about a young, exciting guy who did most everything right, and rode well beyond his years.

That’s fair. But we are all in post -GT super-compensation form and it’s hard to tamp things down.

 

[jmdirt]

Seems pretty harsh to say about a young, exciting guy who did most everything right, and rode well beyond his years.

This^^

 

[Red Rick]

The guy rode a great race until the last day. Yates took what, 4-5 mins off the all time record on Finestre?

Seems pretty harsh to say about a young, exciting guy who did most everything right, and rode well beyond his years.

Well, some errors are simply beyond excuse. Like not even trying to defend your jersey.

 

[red_flanders]

Well, some errors are simply beyond excuse. Like not even trying to defend your jersey.

I don’t really understand this POV, and I don’t just mean your take, lots have said it. Why wouldn’t he chase? There are two reasons that I can see. One he was on the limit, and two, he would have gotten attacked if he pulled Carapaz. Two being a direct result of one. What other reason would there be?

He rode the whole rest of the race with style, panache, and attacked when he could, I don’t think he suddenly became a jerk on the last day. I think the early attack of EF and Carapaz put him in the hurt locker, and he could only defend after.

 

[greyclouds]

I don’t really understand this POV, and I don’t just mean your take, lots have said it. Why wouldn’t he chase? There are two reasons that I can see. One he was on the limit, and two, he would have gotten attacked if he pulled Carapaz. Two being a direct result of one. What other reason would there be?

He rode the whole rest of the race with style, panache, and attacked when he could, I don’t think he suddenly became a jerk on the last day. I think the early attack of EF and Carapaz put him in the hurt locker, and he could only defend after.

I think that the moment got the best of him, which is normal for a young rider with barely over one year of WT and not prepared to be a leader. Based on what he said after the race (something about that was Carapaz responsibility to chase Yates as he was closer to him on the GC) and the fact that he answered all attacks from Carapaz, I don’t buy that he was entirely out of legs. But even then, if are out of legs but not exploded, wouldn’t you show to Carapaz that you want to work with him chasing Yates? Do a few pulls, show that you are willing to partner up.

Would have worked? Possibly not, but it could have taken him much to closer to save the pink.

 

[red_flanders]

I think that the moment got the best of him, which is normal for a young rider with barely over one year of WT and not prepared to be a leader. Based on what he said after the race (something about that was Carapaz responsibility to chase Yates as he was closer to him on the GC) and the fact that he answered all attacks from Carapaz, I don’t buy that he was entirely out of legs. But even then, if are out of legs but not exploded, wouldn’t you show to Carapaz that you want to work with him chasing Yates? Do a few pulls, show that you are willing to partner up.

Would have worked? Possibly not, but it could have taken him much to closer to save the pink.

I don’t think he was entirely out of gas either, but I think he was on the limit quite a bit, and couldn’t risk pacing Carapaz up the mountain.

Don’t think he handled it perfectly either, but the general venom? That I really don’t understand.

 

[Gratemans]

I don’t think he was entirely out of gas either, but I think he was on the limit quite a bit, and couldn’t risk pacing Carapaz up the mountain.

Don’t think he handled it perfectly either, but the general venom? That I really don’t understand.

Venom? I don't like to speak in those terms. But I basically ignore X/Twitter and all that. And knowing the platform, I believe you: no doubt he received some tasteless comments from random keyboardwarriors.

He rode a fantastic Giro up untill the penultimate day. But I do feel we're allowed to criticize him. At no point in the stage did he defend his jersey. Now as I understand the teamcar played a big role in that as well, but come on. You're wearing pink. In the last stage that matters. Sorry, but in my view that's just plain disrespectful. That he decided to sprint at the end didn't help his case either in my book...

Do I hate the guy now? Of course not. Aside from stage 20 he rode a great Giro. But I believe it's fair to be critical of his performance. Like I said before, he's young, but it's not like he got trown on a bike for the first time. He's always been a hyper-talent, not new to wearing leaders jerseys. IMO no excuses: he botched the stage and he and the team should own it. Doesn't mean I'm not eager to see what he can do in the future.

 

[jmdirt]

Don’t think he handled it perfectly either, but the general venom? That I really don’t understand.

This^^