Isaac Del Toro thread

[Sciatic]

Del Toro has some good social media videos of him talking with Pellizzari and couple other Italians young riders he is friends with.. Some older ones of him and Wout exchanging pleasantries. I look forward to seeing Jonas and Remco crossing paths with new guy..

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/TUyxQZj2Id4

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/Z06NnbnmS7A

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/SRfDR_Hlh1A

View: https://m.youtube.com/shorts/js5YxxlGjhI

There is (out there somewhere) an extended video of Wout’s emotional celebration after crossing the line in Sienna. The thing I noticed in the longer video, which popped up again yesterday, that I didn’t notice previously is how thrilled Simon was for Wout when he made his way over to congratulate him. Much more than the usual team hugs & pats on the back. Suggests that Simon probably had a good sense of what Wout had been through recently and struggled to overcome. And if you juxtapose that Sienna scene with Wout’s big effort helping Simon secure the Giro win in Stage 20, it makes for a fascinating narrative. Where’s the Netflix crew when we need them!

 

[Unchained]

Sciatic, I saw some versions of that.. There was a thing, here included saying things like Wout is washed, he is done, just quit already. Del Toro is one of dozens of riders that know that being beat by an on form Van Aert is something to be proud of when it's close. Pedersen and Van Aert did climbing in the Giro that was amazing. Both guys gave teams multiple problems to rethink because races were they would be burned off, instead they survive and thrive when given a chance. The back and forth between Del Toro and Wout is awesome, Del Toro said before he considers Van Aert one of his cycling idols.. Guessing about Pogacar advice, Isaac if Wout goes get the wheel!! Good things will follow!!
MVP hand injury still lingers, I want to see Wout against the best

 

[HashRouge]

I've been reflecting a bit more on stage 20 today. I know a lot has been made of the decision not to ride on the downhill, but for me the big one was del Toro not riding on the ascent, when Yates was gaining more and more time. I'm really, really curious as to what the message from the team car was at that point, because really it needed to be "forget about Carapaz, go to the front and ride". I know del Toro was afraid of Carapaz attacking him, but frankly at that point it really didn't matter anymore. I suspect Carapaz would even have ridden with him for a bit (at that point) as it was in his interest too to bring back Yates. Del Toro's biggest mistake was that point when it had clearly been communicated to him that Yates had the virtual lead - he then went to the front, paced for a couple of minutes, then seemed to give up. By that point I'd started thinking he didn't deserve to win, if he was going to ride like that.

 

[VayaVayaVaya]

I have an overwhelming feeling of "D if you don't, D if you do" here.

We saw (hindsight) what happened when he didn't, but if he would have followed (jump to) Yates and blown, he would be getting hammered for not riding smarter.

I’m pretty sure most of us thought the same thing live: What is he thinking??? Not just in hindsight.

Another option instead of following Yates and potentially blowing up would be to ride his own pace like Gee and limit the losses. Not sure that would have worked with Wout up the road tho. They screwed that up completely, so he kind of had to either cooperate with Carapaz or stay with Yates.

If not for that, he could have likely pulled a Contador and ridden within himself, not covered himself in stage glory perhaps, but possibly saving the overall.

 

[EBTerp]

I am still trying to understand on a climb like this why you would even bother following attacks in the initial efforts. Its a 60 minute climb and everyone knows their threshold - why didn't Del Toro just ride at his own pace similar to Yates?

 

[AmRacer]

I am still trying to understand on a climb like this why you would even bother following attacks in the initial efforts. Its a 60 minute climb and everyone knows their threshold - why didn't Del Toro just ride at his own pace similar to Yates?

One speed Gee pace

 

[elguapo]

One speed Gee pace

 

[elguapo]

I am still trying to understand on a climb like this why you would even bother following attacks in the initial efforts. Its a 60 minute climb and everyone knows their threshold - why didn't Del Toro just ride at his own pace similar to Yates?

Lesson learned for both Isaac and his coaching staff who got used to the almost- invinvibility of Pogacar. UAE has no battle plans at all.

 

[scribers]

I am still trying to understand on a climb like this why you would even bother following attacks in the initial efforts. Its a 60 minute climb and everyone knows their threshold - why didn't Del Toro just ride at his own pace similar to Yates?

They are going fast enough that drafting matters

 

[scribers]

Bruyneel says South American perhaps didn’t want the Mexican to win and willing to throw it all away over such thinking. Certainly crossed my mind

 

[Sciatic]

Bruyneel says South American perhaps didn’t want the Mexican to win and willing to throw it all away over such thinking. Certainly crossed my mind

We obviously don’t know what was in Carapaz’s head or legs. But I think there is a simpler explanation than national rivalry: given EF’s demolition of the peloton (and themselves) at the very bottom of Finestre, we knew Carapaz was going “all in” for the win. But after multiple hard attacks he found he couldn’t drop DelToro. He knew if he just kept riding hard tempo to limit or cut into Yates’s league Del Toro would be in tow.
So there is Carapaz, someone who has not only won a GT but also podiumed 3 times, won an Olympic RR Gold medal, and is the best rider his country has ever produced. Does 2nd or 3rd place really matter much to him when his goal was winning the whole shebang! And he knows if he rides to save second he will pull IDT to the overall win, a rider who refused to do any work with him on the climb to keep Yates in check. Given that scenario I don’t think you need to look for other motivation for his decision.

 

[Hugh Januss]

They are going fast enough that drafting matters

Barely! More important is the mental component, as long as you're not dropped you're still alive. Also for the attacker once you see that the other guy is still with you there is a tendency to knock off the pace to a more sustainable level. Beyond that both Carapaz and Del Toro are punchy climbers (as opposed to Yates who suffered when he tried to play their game) they prefer to ride that way. Yates is like Gee, only faster, it took him 4 attacks to finally open a useful gap and they weren't even really keying on him.

 

[Gratemans]

Yes, Del Toro should have tried to save his Giro and not sit on Carapaz's wheel. At a certain point it was up to him. When Yates was gaining a minute and Carapaz wasn't closing, it was up to the maglia rossa in first person to move.

I know it's covered to death by now but still: I agree.
And yeah, the dude is 21, so we shouldn't be too hard on him but you certainly can't entirely blame it on the UAE DS's either. Some people act like this was the first time he was put on a bike, while in reality he's been a mega-talent for a while now. He certainly has experience going for GC's.
So yeah, I think it's a very reasonable expectation that with Yates extending the gap, he should have sprung to action himself at a certain point.

 

[Gratemans]

We obviously don’t know what was in Carapaz’s head or legs. But I think there is a simpler explanation than national rivalry: given EF’s demolition of the peloton (and themselves) at the very bottom of Finestre, we knew Carapaz was going “all in” for the win. But after multiple hard attacks he found he couldn’t drop DelToro. He knew if he just kept riding hard tempo to limit or cut into Yates’s league Del Toro would be in tow.
So there is Carapaz, someone who has not only won a GT but also podiumed 3 times, won an Olympic RR Gold medal, and is the best rider his country has ever produced. Does 2nd or 3rd place really matter much to him when his goal was winning the whole shebang! And he knows if he rides to save second he will pull IDT to the overall win, a rider who refused to do any work with him on the climb to keep Yates in check. Given that scenario I don’t think you need to look for other motivation for his decision.

100% this. The South-America vs Mexico narrative seems incredibly far-fetched to me.
Simply put: Carapaz had nothing to lose, only something to gain. And he tried to gain it, he just couldn't drop Del Toro.
Meanwhile, Del Toro had the everything to lose, but chose not to defend the pink jersey.

 

[Hugh Januss]

We obviously don’t know what was in Carapaz’s head or legs. But I think there is a simpler explanation than national rivalry: given EF’s demolition of the peloton (and themselves) at the very bottom of Finestre, we knew Carapaz was going “all in” for the win. But after multiple hard attacks he found he couldn’t drop DelToro. He knew if he just kept riding hard tempo to limit or cut into Yates’s league Del Toro would be in tow.
So there is Carapaz, someone who has not only won a GT but also podiumed 3 times, won an Olympic RR Gold medal, and is the best rider his country has ever produced. Does 2nd or 3rd place really matter much to him when his goal was winning the whole shebang! And he knows if he rides to save second he will pull IDT to the overall win, a rider who refused to do any work with him on the climb to keep Yates in check. Given that scenario I don’t think you need to look for other motivation for his decision.

From Del Toro's point of view though if a guy unleashes a half dozen blinding attacks and then when I've gone all in to contain them says "okay let's work together" I gotta say I'm skeptical at best.

 

[Gratemans]

From Del Toro's point of view though if a guy unleashes a half dozen blinding attacks and then when I've gone all in to contain them says "okay let's work together" I gotta say I'm skeptical at best.

Sure, but at a certain point that doesn't factor into the equasion anymore when you know Yates is blowing off in the distance. You just gotta go all out to secure the jersey.

 

[2WpK]

Del Toro is young and an amazing talent and super fun to watch but it was a bit disappointing to see how satisfied he was with second place. Not sure he has the fire to win at the highest level.

 

[dennisdy]

Del Toro might not yet completely understand what happened. But over time he will realize that he was poorly coached at a crucial moment in a grand tour. When his contract is up...

 

[ice&fire]

Del Toro might not yet completely understand what happened. But over time he will realize that he was poorly coached at a crucial moment in a grand tour. When his contract is up...

My Italian is a bit rusty, but there's an interview with Baldato in youtube where I think he says they told Del Toro that Yates was a danger when the gap was around 30-40s.

I am very sceptic about Del Toro learning anything. Carapaz lost a 2nd place, he lost a win, and he still doesn't realize that his was the bigger loss. Maybe a Sesame St muppet can explain it to him.

 

[Netserk]

I have an overwhelming feeling of "D if you don't, D if you do" here.

We saw (hindsight) what happened when he didn't, but if he would have followed (jump to) Yates and blown, he would be getting hammered for not riding smarter.

He could have ridden a steady pace to the top of Finestre. He just needed the pace to never drop too low and to not go over his limits. He did the exact opposite. Worse, he didn't even want to chase fully on a descent. 110 % pathetic loser.

 

[Lequack]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APxZNxfhL_c

 

[elguapo]

If UAE Team management could read this they better kick two or three of their Knucklehead DS and replace them with Chris Horner. Of course del Toro is young and inexperienced. He should be coached al the way in any given race scenario. Inputs from Pogacar given to del Toro are point of view of a dominant racer, not from someone who experienced riding for himself or for his leader during tight race situations.

 

[Bolder]

He could have ridden a steady pace to the top of Finestre. He just needed the pace to never drop too low and to not go over his limits. He did the exact opposite. Worse, he didn't even want to chase fully on a descent. 110 % pathetic loser.

He didn’t take a single turn on the ascent as the race lead was slipping away, when he had a more than willing partner and former Giro winner in Carapaz. Instead he softpedalled for 40 k…I hear a lot of blame heaped on UAE DSs, that he’s a young rider, needs coaching in that situation etc, but I don’t buy that. It was an easy tactical call to work with Carapaz and he blew it 100%. Carapaz and EF did what they needed to do to win.

As the song goes DT seems to thought it was better to fade away than burn out.

 

[CyclistAbi]

UAE DS reveals communication with Isaac del Toro on Finestre: "We tried to encourage him to keep an eye on Yates as well"

Isaac del Toro could almost feel the trophy for winner of Giro d'Italia in the palm of his hand. But then he and then Richard Carapaz suddenly gifted the victory to Simon Yates. In the descent from Co...

cyclinguptodate.com

So the pre-race instructions where to always mark Carapaz and somewhere in the middle of the climb encouragement came from the team car, keep an eye on Yates. Once.

 

[Rackham]

UAE's one message to Del Toro about Yates on Finestre is the pro cycling equivalent of Captain Smith ignoring ice warnings.