Teams & Riders Jakob Fuglsang discussion thread

[Leinster]

FWIW, Dan Martin said almost exactly the same as Fuglsang.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/tour-de-france-dan-martin-warns-of-fireworks-to-come-after-cautious-stage-to-epernay/

"Martin explained why the overall contenders raced cautiously, allowing Alaphilippe to win alone and take the glory and the yellow jersey. They are playing a much longer game.

"It’s very early to be making big efforts like that as a GC rider. With so many teammates around, if you do make a move on a finish like today, then other teams will chase you down, we saw that with the move by Landa and Woods," Martin explained with a true Grand Tour race mentality.

"This a very hard and mountainous Tour," he said. "You also feel that anything can happen in any moment, so I think people are more and more conscious that using up unnecessary energy so early could be very costly in the final week, especially with those last three days in the Alps. Say that, but you hope everybody doesn’t wait for the Alps because it could be too late."

It's possible/arguable, even probable, that Alaphilippe on current form couldn't have been caught, and anyone that could have followed him would have just been outsprinted at the finish anyway. But the fact is, any rider who could have caught him has more important things to worry about than just picking up a few seconds on stage 3. It's true for Fuglsang, it's true for Martin, Thomas, Bernal, Pinot, etc. Alaphilippe's Tour is already a success now, no matter what happens on PdBF, whereas the Tour only starts on Thursday for the others.

 

[Salvarani]

Re:

Yes he was, but dont tell me Alaphilippe isn't stronger than in Amstel at this very moment. He has never been known for his rouleur ability, always able to open a gap, but not necessarily maintaining it or even extending it to a fresh TdF-peloton. And going by Fuglsang words, how in the world would he be able to follow at 80% anyways?

It was a descent and flat going into the finish, and Ala is a pretty good bike handler. He took more risks to open the gap. Peloton wasnt going full gas. When Ineos took over it was just to keep Thomas and Bernal out of trouble. Ala also had the motivation to go for yellow, outside of the stage win.

Not that he has an improved rouleur ability. He is just in great form, as he has been all year. Strong rider in general. On his day, he is great.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

Toby: Im not arguing he uses that particular argument. Just saying he always has something up his sleeve: Nibali, Aru, bad team, dehydration, fish oil etc etc. Im just getting tired of it. Thats why I absolutely HATE that he crashed since everybody will fall back on the argument of the crash. Which may or may not be the case, we won't know if thats the reason for a potential timeloss, but either way it will be a totally legitimate argument. At least for this upcoming MTF. Unless he obviously says he doesnt feel the crash, but knowing Fuglsang, he will always have it up his sleeve. I would too in that case.

I hate that he crashed for two reasons:

1) His chances of winning the Tour decreased - perhaps significantly.

2) Doubters (less reflective than you) will now, should he fail to win the Tour or make the podium, say that the crash is an illegitimate excuse for that, and that he had previously proven to being incapable of doing great things in the Tour, so that his is just same old, same old.

This is perhaps the worst consequence of the crash.

Especially because the so called 'doubters' are not really doubters. Being a doubter, you have to actually be unsure of what to think of an issue. But as I see it, those who choose to view the situation as you describe it under the 2nd bullet, are not doubters. They do not wait to pass judgment on Fuglsang, they have already decided what to think.

 

[Kokoso]

Re:

The gap he opened in that short amount of time on the climb was pretty insane, then went on to extend the gap on the flat roads.

would be fairvto tell the story whole - the gap also decreased on the flat.

 

[JosephK]

Not to kick a hornet's nest, but in a recent (July 9) interview with NBCSN TDF commentators (Phil Liggett and Bob Roll), Lance Armstrong indicated that he had picked Jakob as a favorite going into the Tour, but figured Jakob's chances for a win got knocked back a lot with that stage 1 crash. He explained that when a rider crashes hard, there are potential lingering consequences that may not show up right away, separate from the initial injury or injuries--fatigue from lack of sleep, stress while riding caused by compensating for new injuries, changes in alignment on the bike, etc., that can affect or drain performance later in the Tour.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Good ride today considering the injuries. My belief is bigger now than it was before today

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Great result by Fuglsang, losing only 9 seconds on Thomas, on a climb that does not suit him at all.

He looks ready for the pyrenees!

The Astana team is another matter.

One thing is, that they have been all over the place, on the flat and intermediate stages..... but they selected the team specifically for the mountains, and then everyone except Lutsenko, gets blown out the back early today.

That is quite a worry for the remainder of the tour.

If I was the Astana DS, I would be having a very serious talk with the riders, at the stage debrief - except for Cort riding injured and Lutsenko who was stellar today.

 

[gregrowlerson]

Re:

Great result by Fuglsang, losing only 9 seconds on Thomas, on a climb that does not suit him at all.

He looks ready for the pyrenees!

The Astana team is another matter.

One thing is, that they have been all over the place, on the flat and intermediate stages..... but they selected the team specifically for the mountains, and then everyone except Lutsenko, gets blown out the back early today.

That is quite a worry for the remainder of the tour.

If I was the Astana DS, I would be having a very serious talk with the riders, at the stage debrief - except for Cort riding injured and Lutsenko who was stellar today.

Maybe Jakob felt confident that he wouldn't get dropped early on the final climb today, and thus felt like he wouldn't need much help. A couple of teammates could be saving their legs for the high mountains. Look at Poels dropping off early for Ineos. He's usually at the head of affairs in week three.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Re: Re:

Great result by Fuglsang, losing only 9 seconds on Thomas, on a climb that does not suit him at all.

He looks ready for the pyrenees!

The Astana team is another matter.

One thing is, that they have been all over the place, on the flat and intermediate stages..... but they selected the team specifically for the mountains, and then everyone except Lutsenko, gets blown out the back early today.

That is quite a worry for the remainder of the tour.

If I was the Astana DS, I would be having a very serious talk with the riders, at the stage debrief - except for Cort riding injured and Lutsenko who was stellar today.

Maybe Jakob felt confident that he wouldn't get dropped early on the final climb today, and thus felt like he wouldn't need much help. A couple of teammates could be saving their legs for the high mountains. Look at Poels dropping off early for Ineos. He's usually at the head of affairs in week three.

No way you say that, on such an important climb, if the whole team is riding for a contender.

There are only 7 such deciding climbs in the tour, and for those 7, the whole team is supposed to be there, if they are in any way able to.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re: Re:

Great result by Fuglsang, losing only 9 seconds on Thomas, on a climb that does not suit him at all.

He looks ready for the pyrenees!

The Astana team is another matter.

One thing is, that they have been all over the place, on the flat and intermediate stages..... but they selected the team specifically for the mountains, and then everyone except Lutsenko, gets blown out the back early today.

That is quite a worry for the remainder of the tour.

If I was the Astana DS, I would be having a very serious talk with the riders, at the stage debrief - except for Cort riding injured and Lutsenko who was stellar today.

Maybe Jakob felt confident that he wouldn't get dropped early on the final climb today, and thus felt like he wouldn't need much help. A couple of teammates could be saving their legs for the high mountains. Look at Poels dropping off early for Ineos. He's usually at the head of affairs in week three.

I agree for the most part. Lutsenko did his part in the flat leading into PdBF and Bilbao saved himself. Cort broke a finger but where was Gorka?

 

[Koronin]

Impressive by Fuglsang today. Appears his injuries are healing and hopefully means he'll be good when we hit the mountains later.

 

[Valv.Piti]

Really can't see how he can win the Tour now, but I never thought that was his goal to begin with. Needs to get his recovery straight and try to hold on for a top-5, that would be a great result. Should be possible considering the low gradient Alps.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Great performance by the team today, but Fuglsang waited 500 meters too long on the last climb, otherwise he would have been with Alaphilippe and Pinot in the end..... they are both more explosive on a short climb, so he has to make the first move, which he didn't.

Also, the first mover usually gets to draft the motorcycles

Losing 20 seconds on Pinot was unnecessary.... and today was a good time to gain on the opponents, especially with Ineos in disarray and unable to set up a pursuit.

Whether they would have caught De Gendt is another matter, and on the plus side, he looks to be in great shape, and the team is finally riding coherently when it counts.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Re:

Really can't see how he can win the Tour now, but I never thought that was his goal to begin with. Needs to get his recovery straight and try to hold on for a top-5, that would be a great result. Should be possible considering the low gradient Alps.

I cannot tell if you want Fuglsang to fail or succeed. Lately your toxic comments have suggested the latter. Where is the old valv.piti who used to have sharp opinions based on reason?

 

[Valv.Piti]

Re: Re:

Really can't see how he can win the Tour now, but I never thought that was his goal to begin with. Needs to get his recovery straight and try to hold on for a top-5, that would be a great result. Should be possible considering the low gradient Alps.

I cannot tell if you want Fuglsang to fail or succeed. Lately your toxic comments have suggested the latter. Where is the old valv.piti who used to have sharp opinions based on reason?

This is my opinion based on reason right now. I always thought that in order for Fuglsang to win, he had to be one of the very strongest if not the strongest on LBDF and gain a decent amount of time on his competitors. That didnt happen for various reasons - his crash might have zapped him a bit (most probably), it was raced conservatively etc. On top of that, the rider that he wanted the least to show great form on that particular stage did just that. Its not the fact that Thomas gained a little amount of time, rather that it seems he has timed his shape perfectly for this event in in spite of the crashes. Fuglsang has been great throughout the year, whereas Thomas seemingly is doing a superpeak alá Nibali in 2014. That will always be preferable in GTs, especially when it is as backloaded as it is.

On top of that, I think Fuglsang have had good oppportunites to gain time along with Alaf, but havent for different reasons: lack of panache, lack of legs (again, most likely hampered by his crash on stage 3, less so on stage 8) and IMO bad tactical awareness. This part of the race Fuglsang should have gained time on his rivals apart from stage 2 (where Astana did great, admittedly), but he hasn', and since Im not sold on his recovery, it will be very hard for him to land on the podium. Ineos will place at least on there, Pinot looks great etc.

Lets see on the TT, but I fear that when Tourmalet rolls around Jakob will be a more ordinary version of himself in the high mountains a little deeper into the race. Thats my analysis and that has absolutely nothing to do with me feeling that he comes across badly to me in interviews. I would want to root for him, I somehow do, but I find it hard for that reason and the chauvinism which is attached to it all which I have always disliked

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Really can't see how he can win the Tour now, but I never thought that was his goal to begin with. Needs to get his recovery straight and try to hold on for a top-5, that would be a great result. Should be possible considering the low gradient Alps.

I cannot tell if you want Fuglsang to fail or succeed. Lately your toxic comments have suggested the latter. Where is the old valv.piti who used to have sharp opinions based on reason?

This is my opinion based on reason right now. I always thought that in order for Fuglsang to win, he had to be one of the very strongest if not the strongest on LBDF and gain a decent amount of time on his competitors. That didnt happen for various reasons - his crash might have zapped him a bit (most probably), it was raced conservatively etc. On top of that, the rider that he wanted the least to show great form on that particular stage did just that. Its not the fact that Thomas gained a little amount of time, rather that it seems he has timed his shape perfectly for this event in in spite of the crashes. Fuglsang has been great throughout the year, whereas Thomas seemingly is doing a superpeak alá Nibali in 2014. That will always be preferable in GTs, especially when it is as backloaded as it is.

On top of that, I think Fuglsang have had good oppportunites to gain time along with Alaf, but havent for different reasons: lack of panache, lack of legs (again, most likely hampered by his crash on stage 3, less so on stage 8) and IMO bad tactical awareness. This part of the race Fuglsang should have gained time on his rivals apart from stage 2 (where Astana did great, admittedly), but he hasn', and since Im not sold on his recovery, it will be very hard for him to land on the podium. Ineos will place at least on there, Pinot looks great etc.

Lets see on the TT, but I fear that when Tourmalet rolls around Jakob will be a more ordinary version of himself in the high mountains a little deeper into the race. Thats my analysis and that has absolutely nothing to do with me feeling that he comes across badly to me in interviews. I would want to root for him, I somehow do, but I find it hard for that reason and the chauvinism which is attached to it all which I have always disliked

I honestly have no idea what your problem with today's interview was. You called it no less than cringe. I just dont get it. He explained very well what happened. He was honestly describing why he didn't go with them (at least I think it makes sense that given his placement in front of Alaphilippe and Pinot, it would be practically impossible to accelerate quickly enough to go along with them) and that he thought they were getting motorpaced which plenty of the other favourites also over.

Very matter-of-fact interview without the usual saing-words-but-not-things that many riders practice if you ask me, and I can't help but feel that you for some reason want to root against him.

Maybe you just don't tolerate explanations other than "my legs were not good enough".

 

[Valv.Piti]

I guess my problem isn't so much with the interview, rather his actions on the road coupled with the interview and many other previous interviews. I still dont have any idea to why he didn't launch an attack on that last climb like he has done all year.

But lets leave all this personal stuff aside and talk about the race. Do you agree with my take?

 

[This Charming Man]

pinot, and alaphilipe will finish behind fulgasang in gc. he needs to harden up. mollema will be far behind.

 

[Tonton]

So Fuglsang just realized today that the advantage for an attacker can be a motorbike, the same who can slow you down on a descent, blah, blah, blah. Look, we all agree that there're too many of them. Fuglsang can't say that he never, ever took an advantage because they couldn't react fast enough, or because they just happen to be here giving the best shots for us mortals to enjoy a bike race. Because he did. Because he knows. What's new?

He's making excuses. He made a mistake not turning the after burners. And on the descent, Alaf if a great, and as it turns out since the GDL Pinot is no slouch. The moment is too big for him, he's freaking out, excuses.

Welcome to the big stage Birdsong, Le Tour de France.

 

[Jagartrott]

I also saw his interview after the race. Much whining, if you ask me. Playing the nationalism card there (the motos helped them because they are French) is also pretty classless. I didn't see moto-drafting by De Gendt, so why didn't the bunch close in on him then? Simple: they just weren't riding fast enough - not enough commitment. End of story. Man up, Mr Fuglsang.

 

[Flamin]

The guy was still full on adrenalin and logically not amused after losing time. That's how it works yet people are amazed when someone doesn't react perfectly rational.

Still, it's totally legit calling out motorpacing even if you might have made a tactical mistake by yourself or when you have profited from motorpacing in the past (since you can't blame a rider for that at all).

 

[Broccolidwarf]

So Fuglsang just realized today that the advantage for an attacker can be a motorbike, the same who can slow you down on a descent, blah, blah, blah. Look, we all agree that there're too many of them. Fuglsang can't say that he never, ever took an advantage because they couldn't react fast enough, or because they just happen to be here giving the best shots for us mortals to enjoy a bike race. Because he did. Because he knows. What's new?

He's making excuses. He made a mistake not turning the after burners. And on the descent, Alaf if a great, and as it turns out since the GDL Pinot is no slouch. The moment is too big for him, he's freaking out, excuses.

Welcome to the big stage Birdsong, Le Tour de France.

You need to watch the video of Alaphilippes attack again - Fuglsang did turn on the "after burner" (as you put it), and was only 3-4 seconds behind at the top of the climb - and then Ala/Pinot caught the motorcycle

 

[Jagartrott]

The peloton hardly made up time on Thomas De Gendt (and that includes the sprint for 4th) but the motorcycle next seemed to be next to him or behind him much of the time. So I call BS on these excuses. Instead of voicing some admiration for the guts of Pinot, Fuglsang makes it seem Pinot got a free ride. Bah.

 

[Broccolidwarf]

Lars Michaelsen (Astana DS) being interviewed on the road, live from the Astana team car, about 2 hours into the stage:

"Our strategy is to stay up front today, because of the wind and danger of gaps appearing"

3 hours later Fuglsang has lost 1 minute 40 seconds in the crosswinds.

What is the major disconnect on this team?

 

[RedheadDane]

That they were up front several hours before the crosswinds were predicted to start? It's… quite easy to do crosswind riding before the crosswinds start.