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Jakob Fuglsang discussion thread

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Fuglsang didn't give any interviews after today's stage. That's unusual - even after the stage with the crosswind he did answer questions. Maybe he really thought he could still beat riders like Pinot, and today realized that he couldn't? It will be interesting to see what this will mean further on.
 

KZD

Feb 21, 2019
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I think this shows what I suspected. Fuglsang is a great hilly classics and one week stage racer but not a GT rider, he is capable of doing a top10 under the right circunstances but not much better than that.
I also have to criticise Astana's planification for the season. Almost all the Tour team was flying in the first months of the season and now some of them aren't at their best like Leon Sanchez or Gorka Izaguirre. Even Cort was climbing better during the Dauphine...
 
Kind of stuck between a rock and a hard place right now, isn't he? The GC is not going as hoped for and he is not far enough behind in GC to get any leeway for breaks.

Jakob cannot use another top 10 in the Tour in any meaningful way, but a stage win would be great. I really hope he changes direction even if it is too late when considering the energy he's spent chasing GC. IMO, seeing him in his current state after the majestic spring form he had is just a let-down.
 
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Valv.Piti said:
He wont magically be a lot better in bad weather.

We have now established his level. Quite a bit lower than many expected (myself included before the race started, after Dauphine) considering the top-3 talks, but obviously very decent and enough for a top-10. As Danskebjerge said, his best level ever in this race (maybe apart from 2017 - maybe he was better, but crashed) and as he also noted, Fuglsang doesn't have a great track record in the third week.
It's not about "bad weather", it's about heat.
He is always worse when it gets really hot, like today and yesterday.
Alps looks cooler on the forecast.

Whether he has the morale to keep fighting is another matter.
 
Re: Re:

Broccolidwarf said:
Valv.Piti said:
He wont magically be a lot better in bad weather.

We have now established his level. Quite a bit lower than many expected (myself included before the race started, after Dauphine) considering the top-3 talks, but obviously very decent and enough for a top-10. As Danskebjerge said, his best level ever in this race (maybe apart from 2017 - maybe he was better, but crashed) and as he also noted, Fuglsang doesn't have a great track record in the third week.
Alps looks cooler on the forecast.
33 to 34 degrees in Grenoble from Tuesday to Thursdag, according to the forecast. No rain.
 
Re: Re:

Danskebjerge said:
Broccolidwarf said:
Valv.Piti said:
He wont magically be a lot better in bad weather.

We have now established his level. Quite a bit lower than many expected (myself included before the race started, after Dauphine) considering the top-3 talks, but obviously very decent and enough for a top-10. As Danskebjerge said, his best level ever in this race (maybe apart from 2017 - maybe he was better, but crashed) and as he also noted, Fuglsang doesn't have a great track record in the third week.
Alps looks cooler on the forecast.
33 to 34 degrees in Grenoble from Tuesday to Thursdag, according to the forecast. No rain.
23-25 degrees on the 3 stages in the alps:

https://www.metcheck.com/SEASONAL/tour_de_france_weather.asp?Stage=18

:)
 
Jul 2, 2013
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Reading his column in BT, he seems almost delusional.

"Landa attacked, I went with him, but Jumbo upped the tempo and I chose not to follow Landa."

"Sure, Landa managed to make a gap, but maybe Jumbo eased up a bit when they caught me. Maybe they considered me a biggger threat than Landa."

"Later on it surely cost me having tried to stick with Landa."

And then a lot of maybes."Maybe if I had not... then I might have been able to."

Great rider, but he isn't and never was a contender for this race.
 
Re:

fantomas said:
Reading his column in BT, he seems almost delusional.
I don't know if he's delusional, but the people who thought he was ever going to contend for the podium or even the top spot, certainly were. "But he was great in the classics! And Astana solved the mystery why he always cracked in the past!" :eek:

To think, if Dumoulin, Roglic, Froome... would have been at the race, he wouldn't have made the top 10. But i guess it could be worse. There was somebody who thought Konrad could podium. So I guess the TDF just drives people a bit crazy. Maybe Fuglsang even started to believe he could battle for the win because so many people kept saying it? And now he is trying to keep the moral up by looking for excuses why it didn't work out.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
fantomas said:
Reading his column in BT, he seems almost delusional.
I don't know if he's delusional, but the people who thought he was ever going to contend for the podium or even the top spot, certainly were. "But he was great in the classics! And Astana solved the mystery why he always cracked in the past!" :eek:

To think, if Dumoulin, Roglic, Froome... would have been at the race, he wouldn't have made the top 10. But i guess it could be worse. There was somebody who thought Konrad could podium. So I guess the TDF just drives people a bit crazy. Maybe Fuglsang even started to believe he could battle for the win because so many people kept saying it? And now he is trying to keep the moral up by looking for excuses why it didn't work out.
On the other hand, we have Alaphilippe's current situation. I'm sure most people would call you delusional if you said before the Tour that he was in Maillot Jaune at this point in the race.

Stranger things have happened/is happening than Fuglsang finishing in the top 5. It's never delusional to think that a rider who's been on Fuglsang's level this spring could challenge for a podium/top 5.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
fantomas said:
Reading his column in BT, he seems almost delusional.
I don't know if he's delusional, but the people who thought he was ever going to contend for the podium or even the top spot, certainly were. "But he was great in the classics! And Astana solved the mystery why he always cracked in the past!" :eek:

To think, if Dumoulin, Roglic, Froome... would have been at the race, he wouldn't have made the top 10. But i guess it could be worse. There was somebody who thought Konrad could podium. So I guess the TDF just drives people a bit crazy. Maybe Fuglsang even started to believe he could battle for the win because so many people kept saying it? And now he is trying to keep the moral up by looking for excuses why it didn't work out.
If everyone is delusional to have expected something that eventually doesn't happen, then most people are.

In fact, many people have been delusional, expecting Team Ineos to have a strong control over this race even though they evidently have not been as strong as usual throughout the season.
 
Re:

fantomas said:
Reading his column in BT, he seems almost delusional.

"Landa attacked, I went with him, but Jumbo upped the tempo and I chose not to follow Landa."

"Sure, Landa managed to make a gap, but maybe Jumbo eased up a bit when they caught me. Maybe they considered me a biggger threat than Landa."

"Later on it surely cost me having tried to stick with Landa."

And then a lot of maybes."Maybe if I had not... then I might have been able to."

Great rider, but he isn't and never was a contender for this race.
This is exactly what I have been irritated about for years. Exactly this. Such a good example of what I have been trying to say when he also makes these interviews.

I mean, really? Chose not to follow Landa? Saw you as a bigger threat than Landa? It was the PERFECT situation, both teams had THREE riders up front. We saw how Amador and Soler drilled it, imagine if Fraile, Bilbao and Lutsenko helped and Fraile didnt rode back in the peloton in order to prtotect 9th or 8th or whatever. WOuld have been an incredible position for Fuglsang - he would have hit the bottom of the climb with 1.30 or maybe even 1.45-2.00 to the peloton!
 
Re: Re:

That was the key moment of course. Jakob should have committed fully to that attack. If he couldn't follow Mikel it's ok but if it was a choice that would be disappointing because it's the opposite of how he has approached races since early last year. The old doubts and saving for later and decision to ride conservatively were gone. And it was clear after the crosswind stage that like Landa (and Pinot) he had nothing to lose and so had every reason to go all out early like Mikel.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
fantomas said:
Reading his column in BT, he seems almost delusional.
I don't know if he's delusional, but the people who thought he was ever going to contend for the podium or even the top spot, certainly were. "But he was great in the classics! And Astana solved the mystery why he always cracked in the past!" :eek:

To think, if Dumoulin, Roglic, Froome... would have been at the race, he wouldn't have made the top 10. But i guess it could be worse. There was somebody who thought Konrad could podium. So I guess the TDF just drives people a bit crazy. Maybe Fuglsang even started to believe he could battle for the win because so many people kept saying it? And now he is trying to keep the moral up by looking for excuses why it didn't work out.
He was very disappointed after yesterday's stage. He has had high hopes about this Tour ever since last year, - so that's before his spring successes. He thought he had figured out why it didn't go so well last year.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
If everyone is delusional to have expected something that eventually doesn't happen, then most people are.

In fact, many people have been delusional, expecting Team Ineos to have a strong control over this race even though they evidently have not been as strong as usual throughout the season.
People expecting Ineos to pounce, are not delusional, since Sky have done this many times in the past, and have proven it time and again. People thinking Fuglsang would pounce, are delusional, because for a 34 year old, he has NEVER shown anything close to what people were expecting of him. It's a pretty simple concept really. Expecting Alaphilippe to win Flèche Wallonne is not delusional, even if he doesn't end up winning. Expecting Groenewegen to win Flèche Wallonne IS delusional.
 
Re: Re:

ciranda said:
That was the key moment of course. Jakob should have committed fully to that attack. If he couldn't follow Mikel it's ok but if it was a choice that would be disappointing because it's the opposite of how he has approached races since early last year. The old doubts and saving for later and decision to ride conservatively were gone. And it was clear after the crosswind stage that like Landa (and Pinot) he had nothing to lose and so had every reason to go all out early like Mikel.
Well… He might need to go all-in at some point, if he wants to climb into top-5 (his new goal, now that podium is out.)
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
tobydawq said:
If everyone is delusional to have expected something that eventually doesn't happen, then most people are.

In fact, many people have been delusional, expecting Team Ineos to have a strong control over this race even though they evidently have not been as strong as usual throughout the season.
People expecting Ineos to pounce, are not delusional, since Sky have done this many times in the past, and have proven it time and again. People thinking Fuglsang would pounce, are delusional, because for a 34 year old, he has NEVER shown anything close to what people were expecting of him. It's a pretty simple concept really. Expecting Alaphilippe to win Flèche Wallonne is not delusional, even if he doesn't end up winning. Expecting Groenewegen to win Flèche Wallonne IS delusional.
It wasn't the best example, I'll give you that. People expecting Bernal to win the Tour would have been better because he hadn't done that before.

That doesn't mean that I don't disagree entirely with what you write. Expecting Fuglsang to win the Tour was not out of order after his spring where he was riding so much better than before. If he had been able to display that level in the Tour, he would certainly be in the running. Sadly for him, he hasn't been able to do that but that doesn't prove that it was delusional to expect it because he proved to have the physical abilities to do it.

Expecting Ineos to be what they usually have been in this Tour would have been stupid (not delusional, correct), because it would mean that people either didn't watch any races in 2019 (so in this case maybe uninformed rather than stupid), didn't trust their eyes or just ignored everything, believing that Ineos can produce magic, which they of course can't.
 
Re: Re:

RedheadDane said:
ciranda said:
That was the key moment of course. Jakob should have committed fully to that attack. If he couldn't follow Mikel it's ok but if it was a choice that would be disappointing because it's the opposite of how he has approached races since early last year. The old doubts and saving for later and decision to ride conservatively were gone. And it was clear after the crosswind stage that like Landa (and Pinot) he had nothing to lose and so had every reason to go all out early like Mikel.
Well… He might need to go all-in at some point, if he wants to climb into top-50 (his new goal, now that podium is out.)
I think the top 50 is pretty secure.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
RedheadDane said:
ciranda said:
That was the key moment of course. Jakob should have committed fully to that attack. If he couldn't follow Mikel it's ok but if it was a choice that would be disappointing because it's the opposite of how he has approached races since early last year. The old doubts and saving for later and decision to ride conservatively were gone. And it was clear after the crosswind stage that like Landa (and Pinot) he had nothing to lose and so had every reason to go all out early like Mikel.
Well… He might need to go all-in at some point, if he wants to climb into top-50 (his new goal, now that podium is out.)
I think the top 50 is pretty secure.
DAMMIT! Not quick enough… :lol:
I should go to bed...
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
tobydawq said:
If everyone is delusional to have expected something that eventually doesn't happen, then most people are.

In fact, many people have been delusional, expecting Team Ineos to have a strong control over this race even though they evidently have not been as strong as usual throughout the season.
People expecting Ineos to pounce, are not delusional, since Sky have done this many times in the past, and have proven it time and again. People thinking Fuglsang would pounce, are delusional, because for a 34 year old, he has NEVER shown anything close to what people were expecting of him. It's a pretty simple concept really. Expecting Alaphilippe to win Flèche Wallonne is not delusional, even if he doesn't end up winning. Expecting Groenewegen to win Flèche Wallonne IS delusional.
Even Thomas won't be pouncing by the looks of it, more like defending while Alaphillippe starts sliding backwards. Thomas isn't climbing as well as he was in last year's race and even in his TT Thomas himself said he struggled over the last third of the course. Fuglsang is a versatile rider but never convinced me as a podium possibility in a grand tour.
 
Re: Re:

tobydawq said:
It wasn't the best example, I'll give you that. People expecting Bernal to win the Tour would have been better because he hadn't done that before.

That doesn't mean that I don't disagree entirely with what you write. Expecting Fuglsang to win the Tour was not out of order after his spring where he was riding so much better than before. If he had been able to display that level in the Tour, he would certainly be in the running. Sadly for him, he hasn't been able to do that but that doesn't prove that it was delusional to expect it because he proved to have the physical abilities to do it.

Expecting Ineos to be what they usually have been in this Tour would have been stupid (not delusional, correct), because it would mean that people either didn't watch any races in 2019 (so in this case maybe uninformed rather than stupid), didn't trust their eyes or just ignored everything, believing that Ineos can produce magic, which they of course can't.
Look, i have nothing against the guy, i just need to make sure my eyes aren't rolling out of their sockets when people start hyping a guy for something when there is absolutely no reason for it. Yes, he was su-perb in the classics and i enjoyed watching him. That just doesn't mean he is all of a sudden turning into a GC threat in the twilight of his career. Those are completely different things. I mean, if next year Jungels has a stellar spring, will you expect him on the podium of the TDF? I mean, Jungels has proven more in GT's than Fuglsang and he's 8 years younger. Let's be real here. Another example, when Claude Criquielion had a stellar classics season, he was never considered to be a title contender in the TDF. And he also had a (much) better track reckord in GT GC's, including a podium in the Vuelta and a top 5 in the Tour. One (classics) has little to do with the other (GT GC).

To me, expecting him to win, was completely out of order. Even in order to get on the podium, so much would have needed to happen, unless you in fact expected him to make a "sky-like" step as GC rider at that age.

As for Bernal, that comparison doesn't work. When, in 12 years, it turns out Bernal never exceeded a 7th place in the Tour after cracking evey time in the third week (could still happen), then i'm sure nobody would declare him a favorite to win TDF at 34 years of age, because he won a classic 3 months before.
 
Re: Re:

Logic-is-your-friend said:
tobydawq said:
It wasn't the best example, I'll give you that. People expecting Bernal to win the Tour would have been better because he hadn't done that before.

That doesn't mean that I don't disagree entirely with what you write. Expecting Fuglsang to win the Tour was not out of order after his spring where he was riding so much better than before. If he had been able to display that level in the Tour, he would certainly be in the running. Sadly for him, he hasn't been able to do that but that doesn't prove that it was delusional to expect it because he proved to have the physical abilities to do it.

Expecting Ineos to be what they usually have been in this Tour would have been stupid (not delusional, correct), because it would mean that people either didn't watch any races in 2019 (so in this case maybe uninformed rather than stupid), didn't trust their eyes or just ignored everything, believing that Ineos can produce magic, which they of course can't.
Look, i have nothing against the guy, i just need to make sure my eyes aren't rolling out of their sockets when people start hyping a guy for something when there is absolutely no reason for it. Yes, he was su-perb in the classics and i enjoyed watching him. That just doesn't mean he is all of a sudden turning into a GC threat in the twilight of his career. Those are completely different things. I mean, if next year Jungels has a stellar spring, will you expect him on the podium of the TDF? I mean, Jungels has proven more in GT's than Fuglsang and he's 8 years younger. Let's be real here. Another example, when Claude Criquielion had a stellar classics season, he was never considered to be a title contender in the TDF. And he also had a (much) better track reckord in GT GC's, including a podium in the Vuelta and a top 5 in the Tour. One (classics) has little to do with the other (GT GC).

To me, expecting him to win, was completely out of order. Even in order to get on the podium, so much would have needed to happen, unless you in fact expected him to make a "sky-like" step as GC rider at that age.

As for Bernal, that comparison doesn't work. When, in 12 years, it turns out Bernal never exceeded a 7th place in the Tour after cracking evey time in the third week (could still happen), then i'm sure nobody would declare him a favorite to win TDF at 34 years of age, because he won a classic 3 months before.
I really don't care much about past results if it's evident that a guy has taken a giant leap in level. You keep fixating on those and we will never reach each other.

And let me just ask you this: Who was the only guy who was better than Fuglsang during the spring races (especially the classics which everybody says has nothing to do with Grand Tours)? What would we have called people if they had believed HE would end on the Tour podium? And where is that guy now, more than two weeks into the Tour?
 

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