Jan Ullrich

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Jul 28, 2009
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timmers said:
In my country truth is a valid defence. Is this not the case in Germany/Switzerland (I am not sure where Ullrich resides these days)?

Why not come clean and admit what you know and why you cheated? I think he could regain some of the respect that he had prior to 2006.
Respect doesn't pay the bills.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Roninho said:
Respect doesn't pay the bills.
So how good a guy is Jan, really? I ask myself also.

Set aside money for loved ones. If you have kids, set up trust funds, with pretty much all you got in there. Sell houses, cars, etc for it.

Then go live the poor man's life, and share the truth. If Germans are so outraged, he can make paid appearances to get his say. Write the friggin' book. Don't give the money to lawyers. Those sueing you will need to understand that you will make it a very public case, where the guilty defendant will look good, and will just claim poverty to not pay millions.

I may be a rotten soul, but truth and honor go before millions for me.
If you sell the lie for millions, how good of a guy are you, really? You can love a dumpster found bike and enjoy long rides just as well.

Better guy than most of them, or simply spoiled and empty like the ret of them? the longer I think about it, the better Landis looks.
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Really ? Landis only fessed up after he had run out of options, of money, of a family and had been told he wouldn't be invited at the ToC, actually it's only the latter that set it off actually it seems, shows you his moral high ground...

It's been hard enough on Ulle as it is and we know the story anyway.
 
May 6, 2009
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Ullrich needs some PR advice now that he's going to struggle to represent his sponsor at sportives.
If he were to do twitter rides around Europe, I'm guessing there would be thousands turning out. Hell, I can't ride a road bike for toffee but I'd be on the starting line!
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Living silence rather than a lie, and making a living in the sport, from the fans you betrayed. That's soooo much better.

I'm raising my ethical standards for dopers, and he's not making the cut right now. More good guy rep than he's maybe worth? His doping may have been less modest than we like to believe also.
 
Cloxxki said:
I may be a rotten soul, but truth and honor go before millions for me.
If you sell the lie for millions, how good of a guy are you, really? You can love a dumpster found bike and enjoy long rides just as well.
Eh. Easy to say when you haven't actually had to make the choice yourself.
 
Jul 28, 2009
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Cloxxki said:
So how good a guy is Jan, really? I ask myself also.

Set aside money for loved ones. If you have kids, set up trust funds, with pretty much all you got in there. Sell houses, cars, etc for it.

Then go live the poor man's life, and share the truth. If Germans are so outraged, he can make paid appearances to get his say. Write the friggin' book. Don't give the money to lawyers. Those sueing you will need to understand that you will make it a very public case, where the guilty defendant will look good, and will just claim poverty to not pay millions.

I may be a rotten soul, but truth and honor go before millions for me.
If you sell the lie for millions, how good of a guy are you, really? You can love a dumpster found bike and enjoy long rides just as well.

Better guy than most of them, or simply spoiled and empty like the ret of them? the longer I think about it, the better Landis looks.
Why? Really why? Ullrich to me looks like he finally is happy with who he is and what he does, why should he give this away? Only because you think he would feel better by doing it?

As for the Landis reference, the guy even tried to get on Armstrongs squad, spend all his money on 'proving' that he didn't use dope, and when he finally had no other options he chose to spill the beans on everything. The result of it (telling the truth) is better then lying, but the way he got there imo does not necessarly make him better then Ullrich (or Armstrong). Imo if Landis could have gotten a good paid gig on a cycling team (teammnager, cyclist, whatever) he wouldn't have told a thing. (He might have with hindsight, though).
 
Mar 19, 2009
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hrotha said:
Eh. Easy to say when you haven't actually had to make the choice yourself.
Actually, in a way, I did. I happen to have an athletically privileged body. Likely not like Ullrich, but quite possibly sufficient to be an Olympic also-ran. Not my words, you can decide to take my word for it or call BS, its irrelevant anyway.
I did not dope, and didn't seek it out to reach full pro status. There were races where only pro's finished before me, at times as few as one.
I was surely too lazy to "do what it takes", got my greatest successes on just a few hours of training per week, but I was also morally unable to "take what it takes".
Let's not forget Ullrich took the decision to dope first, and then to continue. When he got caught, he chose to be silent. He made most of the typical doper choices. I am asking myself what makes him so different from those more worthy of our hatred. Can we get away with likening Ullrich to others, just because he had such an amazing physique? That's not conscious respect, that's manlove.
 
But that's not the choice you're asking Ullrich to make. In his case, you're asking him to give up on everything he already had. There's no potentiality here. Hence, it's easy for you to say, and no, you were never faced with the same decision.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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hrotha said:
But that's not the choice you're asking Ullrich to make. In his case, you're asking him to give up on everything he already had. There's no potentiality here. Hence, it's easy for you to say, and no, you were never faced with the same decision.
I am not so sure it'll cost him everything. He can still go on his little rides. Get more TV exposure. Book/Movie opportunities. He's not totally media shy it seems, does use his name for business.

Terrifying to even contemplate, especially after Landis, yes, of course. A huge dilemma.
 
Dec 30, 2010
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getting a bit angry are we?

Cloxxki said:
Actually, in a way, I did. I happen to have an athletically privileged body. Likely not like Ullrich, but quite possibly sufficient to be an Olympic also-ran. Not my words, you can decide to take my word for it or call BS, its irrelevant anyway.
I did not dope, and didn't seek it out to reach full pro status. There were races where only pro's finished before me, at times as few as one.
I was surely too lazy to "do what it takes", got my greatest successes on just a few hours of training per week, but I was also morally unable to "take what it takes".
Let's not forget Ullrich took the decision to dope first, and then to continue. When he got caught, he chose to be silent. He made most of the typical doper choices. I am asking myself what makes him so different from those more worthy of our hatred. Can we get away with likening Ullrich to others, just because he had such an amazing physique? That's not conscious respect, that's manlove.
Sorry Cloxxki , but it sounds like you are a bit of a poop disturber. Or some kind of a reporter that is looking for a better story , ( maybe like the ones that had to flick their burning cigarettes on the aviation fuel that spilled after the plane crash to see how more exiting it is to see the struggle of the survivors.)
Or maybe you are just angry because you were beaten by dopers or you thought they were dopers and cant get over it . You cant get over it that people like Ulle still.
Your posts one by one get angrier while you insist on drumming up support to try to make sure you can make a bad situation worse.
It is easier to dislike a person like you , than it ever will be to dislike Ulle.
Maybe you should walk a mile in another mans shoes , as the old saying goes.
 
Cloxxki said:
Actually, in a way, I did. I happen to have an athletically privileged body. Likely not like Ullrich, but quite possibly sufficient to be an Olympic also-ran. Not my words, you can decide to take my word for it or call BS, its irrelevant anyway.
I did not dope, and didn't seek it out to reach full pro status. There were races where only pro's finished before me, at times as few as one.
I was surely too lazy to "do what it takes", got my greatest successes on just a few hours of training per week, but I was also morally unable to "take what it takes".
Let's not forget Ullrich took the decision to dope first, and then to continue. When he got caught, he chose to be silent. He made most of the typical doper choices. I am asking myself what makes him so different from those more worthy of our hatred. Can we get away with likening Ullrich to others, just because he had such an amazing physique? That's not conscious respect, that's manlove.
He is just another doper IMO. But you can be at least either be man enough and take the blame or be quiet about it (or mostly quiet about it). What I don't like is being outspoken about your innocence when you know you are guilty as hell. The worst option is being outspoken about how you beat a bunch of lazy dopers riding clean: You have a big heart, your cadence is optimal, you train many hours on the bike, you know the roads, etc, etc, etc. This implies that the other ones don't.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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stainlessguy1 said:
Sorry Cloxxki , but it sounds like you are a bit of a poop disturber. Or some kind of a reporter that is looking for a better story , ( maybe like the ones that had to flick their burning cigarettes on the aviation fuel that spilled after the plane crash to see how more exiting it is to see the struggle of the survivors.)
Or maybe you are just angry because you were beaten by dopers or you thought they were dopers and cant get over it . You cant get over it that people like Ulle still.
Your posts one by one get angrier while you insist on drumming up support to try to make sure you can make a bad situation worse.
It is easier to dislike a person like you , than it ever will be to dislike Ulle.
Maybe you should walk a mile in another mans shoes , as the old saying goes.
You may be part right, who am I to judge myself? I can only say I see it differently.
I am opening my mind more and more. I don't try to burn Ullrich (else I'd have done so). I am just questioning the good reputation he has in the Clinic. If you manage to re-affirm that reputation with arguments, that's great. If not, then he really is just another Valverde or Dekker or whomever. A doper sad to have been caught, and continuing to make a living the sport he defrauded, be as part of a collective or on their own.

From every one that's men Jan, I hear he was such a genuinely nice person. I absolutely believe that, and am sure I'd agree if I'd had the honor. In terms of good doper, bad doper, my concern is that he's possibly being over-rated. We are very harsh on dopers here, but should watch out to not be as subjective as we flame the authorities to be.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Escarabajo said:
He is just another doper IMO. But you can be at least either be man enough and take the blame or be quiet about it (or mostly quiet about it). What I don't like is being outspoken about your innocence when you know you are guilty as hell. The worst option is being outspoken about how you beat a bunch of lazy dopers riding clean: You have a big heart, your cadence is optimal, you train many hours on the bike, you know the roads, etc, etc, etc. This implies that the other ones don't.
I agree with you. It's a slope, not black or white between angel of light or angel of death. Although just as with "little bit pregnant", you either are, or you aren't.
Ullrich certainly isn't the worst of them, but let's not make him a saint before we've established he couldn't be more honest and open, after changing his ways. He quit racing, and shut his mouth, thats it. It took a long time to get a sentence, but he had the choice to confess and advance proceedings. If monetary gain/loss was his motivator, then he's just another Valverde or Contador in that respect (even if he doped less, and centainly denied less).
 
Jan 13, 2012
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One of the interesting things about the opinion of people in the clinic is the generally upbeat and positive kudos laid upon him by the posters, here in the clinic as opposed to the blatant harshness bestowed upon Armstrong.

Their upbringing was similar family wise, and they were early achievers in their sports.

I wonder why Lance was trashed here for steroid use, as a 15 year old, by the clinic posters, and yet nothing has ever been said about the practices of doping, upon young athletes in East Germany,(Jan) or Vinoqurov in the Soviet Union.

Did Lance dope as a teen, Vino dope as a teen, or Jan dope as a teen.

Did they have a choice. As for Jan and Vino, as adults they did it as choice.
Armstrong never doped, as a choice.
 
Jan 13, 2012
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Cloxxki said:
So how good a guy is Jan, really? I ask myself also.

Set aside money for loved ones. If you have kids, set up trust funds, with pretty much all you got in there. Sell houses, cars, etc for it.

Then go live the poor man's life, and share the truth. If Germans are so outraged, he can make paid appearances to get his say. Write the friggin' book. Don't give the money to lawyers. Those sueing you will need to understand that you will make it a very public case, where the guilty defendant will look good, and will just claim poverty to not pay millions.

I may be a rotten soul, but truth and honor go before millions for me.
If you sell the lie for millions, how good of a guy are you, really? You can love a dumpster found bike and enjoy long rides just as well.

Better guy than most of them, or simply spoiled and empty like the ret of them? the longer I think about it, the better Landis looks.
I respect your opinion but you do not understand professional cycling or economics.
 
The Plediadian said:
One of the interesting things about the opinion of people in the clinic is the generally upbeat and positive kudos laid upon him by the posters, here in the clinic as opposed to the blatant harshness bestowed upon Armstrong.

Their upbringing was similar family wise, and they were early achievers in their sports.

I wonder why Lance was trashed here for steroid use, as a 15 year old, by the clinic posters, and yet nothing has ever been said about the practices of doping, upon young athletes in East Germany,(Jan) or Vinoqurov in the Soviet Union.

Did Lance dope as a teen, Vino dope as a teen, or Jan dope as a teen.

Did they have a choice. As for Jan and Vino, as adults they did it as choice.
Armstrong never doped, as a choice
.
As adults they all had a choice IMO. As youngsters Jan and Vino probably had less of a choice than Armstrong. IMO again.
 
Mar 6, 2009
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The Plediadian said:
One of the interesting things about the opinion of people in the clinic is the generally upbeat and positive kudos laid upon him by the posters, here in the clinic as opposed to the blatant harshness bestowed upon Armstrong.

Their upbringing was similar family wise, and they were early achievers in their sports.

I wonder why Lance was trashed here for steroid use, as a 15 year old, by the clinic posters, and yet nothing has ever been said about the practices of doping, upon young athletes in East Germany,(Jan) or Vinoqurov in the Soviet Union.

Did Lance dope as a teen, Vino dope as a teen, or Jan dope as a teen.

Did they have a choice. As for Jan and Vino, as adults they did it as choice.
Armstrong never doped, as a choice.
I would think someone who cannot see the differences between Armstrong and Ullrich in terms of what they done is deliberately being obtuse.

Ullrich enter the pro ranks at the height of the EPO era, finished 2nd in his first Tour at age 22 and never really got of the carousel until 2006. He was at the top from the beginning, what choice did he have at any point if he wanted to stay there. Its always more difficult to see things when you never leave the bubble.

Armstrong was of course on the same carousel but his cancer took him out of the sport for almost 2 years. He almost died from a terrible disease, he had plenty of time to re-assess his life and ponder on what his future held.

Knowing that he was lucky to escape with his life and knowing what was involved with returning to pro cycling, surely the logical decision would have been to walk away from the sport. He had made decent money as a pro plus his insurance and he had the foundation to work with. He could have gone into management, coaching or anything.

Instead he chose to return to the sport and not just return to the sport but decided to focus on the most prestigious and toughest event in cycling, again knowing exactly what was entailed, the big doping program, answering the inevitable questions and lying to the people he claimed to represent.

If Armstrong had come back and even achieved the results he got in mid 98 or raced in the US, he could have carved out a decent career for himself making decent money without having to get on the big doping carousel again. It might have been less ego-fulfilling but it would have been more honest. His comeback in 98 was lauded and admired before he ever won a single Tour, maybe not in the minds of the general public but within the cycling community.

If Lance had never been out of the sport and never suffered from cancer, I could understand his decisions more rationally. I dont know how he arrived at his decision to do what he done but at some point, he must have known he would have to explain how a previouly mediocre Tour rider suddenly became the best after cancer. I think at some point they realised that the cancer would give him the required leverage to follow his ego and thats what I would see as the big difference between Ullrich and Armstrong.
 
Jan 13, 2012
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Escarabajo said:
As adults they all had a choice IMO. As youngsters Jan and Vino probably had less of a choice than Armstrong. IMO again.
Just a comparison here. Only a hypothesis.
Vino, steroids, youngster.
Jan steroids , youngster.
Kloden steroids,youngster.
Lance steroids, youngster.In a different sport triathelete.

A path of long lasting strength.
EPO and blood doping/testesterone, horse medicine, hemosist etc. going full fury during their careers.

Why would the German media tear apart Jan in particular, and Armstrong get so much hate from whomever?
 
Jan 13, 2012
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The other thing to ponder is, in NFL, pro baseball, pro cycling, systematic team doping was and probably still is taking place on a large scale.
Cycling which is the lowest payed and hardest of the above sport takes the brunt of the media hate, as well as the most testing and positives, although I would bet it is a cleaner sport dopingwise than Pro soccer, NFL etc.
 
The Plediadian said:
Just a comparison here. Only a hypothesis.
Vino, steroids, youngster.
Jan steroids , youngster.
Kloden steroids,youngster.
Lance steroids, youngster.In a different sport triathelete.

A path of long lasting strength.
EPO and blood doping/testesterone, horse medicine, hemosist etc. going full fury during their careers.

Why would the German media tear apart Jan in particular, and Armstrong get so much hate from whomever?
I want that answer too!

I am not German.
 
May 15, 2010
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Ride & interview with Jeremy Hunt

"I think it’ll work out, but the thing is that it’s not like the old days were the whole team gets on the front and leads out Zabel while still racing for Ullrich in GC. If you do that every day you waste your energy for the overall win. But wasn’t Ullrich the best ever? He just didn’t have the mind of Lance Armstrong."
 
May 18, 2009
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killswitch said:
Ride & interview with Jeremy Hunt

"I think it’ll work out, but the thing is that it’s not like the old days were the whole team gets on the front and leads out Zabel while still racing for Ullrich in GC. If you do that every day you waste your energy for the overall win. But wasn’t Ullrich the best ever? He just didn’t have the mind of Lance Armstrong."
NO NO NO! Bad Jeremy Hunt! :mad:

JU didn't have the better responder genes, Ferrari, and UCI payoffs that LA had.

Hasn't this guy been reading the clinic?
 
Mar 11, 2009
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pmcg76 said:
I would think someone who cannot see the differences between Armstrong and Ullrich in terms of what they done is deliberately being obtuse.
.
edit....I missed pmcg's point.
oops so nevermind
 

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