Jan Ullrich

[slowspoke]

Ask yourself when they started to test for EPO ( inherent mAcrodosing with EPO ) and who was using autologous blood doping? Your answers should elucidate that Pharmastrong doped with Microdosing earlier, used mechanistic full throttle team doping earlier, and team wide autologous blood doping earlier than any other team. More to the point, LA was pushing doping limits long before Jan/Beloki...and their respective teams.

You did see the 4-5 man blue train dropping all riders but Ulle and Beloki in the years 2001 - 2005 right? That is a good qualitative place to lay your bets.

There are different types of individual and team doping tactics.

As an aside, it would be a great time to compare various biometric values of Ulle vs LA. Leave all the foo foo propaganda parameters like cadence and TT position; even though Ulle clearly was the better positioned an streamlined TTer.

I'd love to see a comparison of VO2 Max, Lung capacity, HR/CO, Delta waves on EKG, power outputs...That data must be out there. ASO or the UCI have it right?

While I agree that Lance took it to the max and I'd love to see the comparison of Lance vs Ulle, his performance in 96 was unbelievable and way more suspect than 2000 onwards. And yes, I've seen all the tours! On a side note do you think they could enter the footage of 99-2005 as evidence against Lance? In my mind I see them in a courtroom watching the clips of Lancealots attacks and turning to the to the jury and saying "Reeeeaaaallllllyyyyy?"

 

[roundabout]

In opposite to Armstrong Ulle got the talent, the cycling style and the body to do this. Clean.

So you claim that he was doped 96, when he sat in front of the doped Bjarne for the whole Tour, when everyone saw that he would easily ride him away, if there were no team order?
I still believe he started it years later, when he saw that he can't beat less talented riders with overfulled tanks.

First, you don't know whether Ullrich had the talent to compete clean.

Second, there was more doping going on in the 90's prior to the introduction of the EPO test. Surely if he could compete "clean" then, he could have done so later.

Third, he recorded one of the best performances ever in 1998 which was well above what he could do later on.

Fourth, can I interest you in a bridge? Just saying that he had the talent doesn't really cut it as an argument.

 

[slowspoke]

First, you don't know whether Ullrich had the talent to compete clean.
t
Second, there was more doping going on in the 90's prior to the introduction of the EPO test. Surely if he could compete "clean" then, he could have done so later.

Third, he recorded one of the best performances ever in 1998 which was well above what he could do later on.

Fourth, can I interest you in a bridge? Just saying that he had the talent doesn't really cut it as an argument.

Can I just say A) You mean 1997 when Ulle won, not 1998 when he lost to Pantani. Secondly, I would still say 96 was a better performance. Strangely, just before the 50% rule came in. Didn't do Rise much good either after 1997

 

[roundabout]

I don't mean 1998 as a whole, just one climb up the Madeleine where only Pantani could follow and the third rider over the top was something like 2 minutes behind.

This stage

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/stage16.html

Overall, yeah, 1996 and 1997 were probably (can't check the exact numbers) best performances from Ullrich. Funny that.

 

[slowspoke]

I don't mean 1998 as a whole, just one climb up the Madeleine where only Pantani could follow and the third rider over the top was something like 2 minutes behind.

This stage

http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/results/1998/tour98/stage16.html

Overall, yeah, 1996 and 1997 were probably (can't check the exact numbers) best performances from Ullrich. Funny that.

Yeah, it was impressive! I just laugh when people talk about the postal train, because in 96/97 Ulle WAS that train! That's much more. Incredible than anything else from then on. His TT in 96 was unbelievable in every sense of the word after giving the peloton the smack down for 3 days in the mountains then taking 2 mins out of everyone. Not possible without help......

 

[webvan]

I still hope Ulle will come clean one day...maybe if Dopestrong gets a lifetime ban from USADA then he'll come out and talk.

I agree that it's unlikely that he wasn't taking anything in 1996 and 1997 when you could take EPO without getting caught and Pevenage said they stopped after the Festina affair. Match that with what Livingstone said about Ullrich's hematocrit in 2001 (41 or 42%) and I think he was probably "cleaner" than Dopestrong between 1999 and 2004/2005.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Of course Ullrich was not clean in 1996-1998

Nobody in the Top 100 of a GT was clean bach then. Thatw as impossible, and everybody with some common sense knwos that. However, according to various statements by guys like D'HOnt or Dietz, Ullrich was never a front runner in terms of Doping. He just did what he had to do.
However, there are strong indications that Ullrich rode the 2000 and 2001 Tour without any means of blood doping.

 

[Bobby G]

However, there are strong indications that Ullrich rode the 2000 and 2001 Tour without any means of blood doping.

Such as? Honestly inquiring here out of interest, not a sarcastic jibe.

 

[webvan]

See my message(s) above for some clues.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Such as? Honestly inquiring here out of interest, not a sarcastic jibe.

Among other hints, Bobby Julich confirmed this for example. He said that Ullrich's was never above 41% hämatocrit when they were riding together at Telekom. Jörg Jacksche stated too that Telekom was riding without blood manipulation in 2000. (He left after the 200 season) Many riders like him already did so at the Tour in 99, he said.
Ullrich in 2001 was in an absolute superb shape actually maybe the best shape in his life. Yet he was only able to produce 440 Watts on the final climbs like Alpe d'Huez. Compare this to the 480 Watts he did in 1997 for example. That's a difference of abot 8% in power output. This fits perfectly in the 5-10% scale which is said to be gained by blood manipulation. Of course thise numbers alone wouldn't proof a thing. But in combination with the statemts of Julich an Jacksche they are more than an indication.

 

[Bobby G]

Among other hints, Bobby Julich confirmed this for example. He said that Ullrich's was never above 41% hämatocrit when they were riding together at Telekom. Jörg Jacksche stated too that Telekom was riding without blood manipulation in 2000. (He left after the 200 season) Many riders like him already did so at the Tour in 99, he said.
Ullrich in 2001 was in an absolute superb shape actually maybe the best shape in his life. Yet he was only able to produce 440 Watts on the final climbs like Alpe d'Huez. Compare this to the 480 Watts he did in 1997 for example. That's a difference of abot 8% in power output. This fits perfectly in the 5-10% scale which is said to be gained by blood manipulation. Of course thise numbers alone wouldn't proof a thing. But in combination with the statemts of Julich an Jacksche they are more than an indication.

Nice one. So the it appears as if Ulle & T-Mobile doped, but not using blood doping til 04/05. 6 years behind USPS! I wonder what the reasons for that were... morals? safety?

On a tangent, I remember when some "insider" was interviewed (cannot remember who) in the aftermath of the Festina affair about doping in the peleton and he remarked he was sure 100% of the peleton was doped. As a naive, good seeing 10 year old lad I dismissed this as pure doomsday journalism.... how wrong I was. Sad really.

 

[Bavarianrider]

It seems as in 2000 and 2001 there was certainly a split in the peleton. Those who used blood manipulation and those who didn't. Actually i read reports of race doctors who claimed that in the spring of 2001 the peleton was as clean as it hasn't been in along time. However, for the Tour this changed again and some teams restablished blood manioulation methods. I leave it up to you to guess who that was.
As for Ullrich, remember that after the 2001 season he got in all those private and mental problems. Ullrich at that time was very frustrated. He realized that if he wanted to won the our again, he had to go bike in the the doping cycle.
By 2003 we must asume, that blood doping of some sort was totally reestablished and almost everybody in the peleton used it again.
However, it seems that there was still something of a two class system and not everybody was riding on the same good stuff.
In May of 2006 a telphone call of Rudy Pevenage with Fuentes was recorded by the police. In this telephone call, Pevenage seems to be suprised how good a certain method is working and talks with Fuentes about using this for Jan.
So while we must asume that Ullrich worked together with Fuentes before 2005 it seems that Ullrich in 2006 seemed to be willing to use a certain doping method which he hadn't used in the years before, but was apperently already known and used to some parts of the peleton.
In 2006 Ullrich wanted to have a real competitive situation once again. In what he wanted to be the last year of his career, he was willing to take risks again. In that year we would have seen the real Jan again. A Jan which was on the same doping level as his competitors. He would have smoked everyone like he did in 1997.
Of course at the end, Ullrich is a drug user just like other, too. However, taking a closer look at the story, Ullrich is more of a victim than a profiteur of the EPO/blood doping era.
As Jeff D'Hont said, one of the guys that knows more about the peleton and the drug abuse in it, than must other people: "If the peleton was clean, Ullrich could have won the Tour 10 times. He was by far the most naturaly gifted rider"

 

[webvan]

All good points, without actual first hand accounts by Ulle himself I don't think we'll ever be able to do better. Not sure about the 2006 TDF as he'd struggled to win the 2006 TDS but at this point it's a bit of a detail.

About that Pevenage/Fuentes call (or was it an SMS ?) what I remember is that there was an exchange with Fuentes just after the Giro ITT where Ulle had smashed the competition where Pevenage asked for "more" as Ulle was impressed at how well it had worked, presumably for that ITT.

 

[Bavarianrider]

All good points, without actual first hand accounts by Ulle himself I don't think we'll ever be able to do better. Not sure about the 2006 TDF as he'd struggled to win the 2006 TDS but at this point it's a bit of a detail.

About that Pevenage/Fuentes call (or was it an SMS ?) what I remember is that there was an exchange with Fuentes just after the Giro ITT where Ulle had smashed the competition where Pevenage asked for "more" as Ulle was impressed at how well it had worked, presumably for that ITT.

Exactly. So it really seems like they had tested something there, which they hadn't used before, and apparently it worked.

I wouldn't say though, that Ullrich struggled at the Tour de Suisse. in 2006 he looked better at the Tour de Suisse than he had ever done since 1997.

 

[webvan]

Well, "struggled" in the sense that he was barely able to beat Koldo Gil and Jacksche, but yes he did look fit.

ok, I see what you mean about the "new" stuff, or maybe new treatment and transfusion method, he didn't have access to it before.

 

[norwegian]

If everybody thinks everybody else is doping, is it then not likely that all will?

 

[Neworld]

First, you don't know whether Ullrich had the talent to compete clean.

All logically notions would suggest you are wrong.

-He won the U23 World clean.
-He won the 2000 RR Olympics clean
-He finished 2nd in 2000 ITT Olympics clean
-He was restricting his doping during 2001 & 2002 and still was second.
-Started autologous blooding later than 'other' riders and still placed top 5 over those years

No doubt the guy was maximizing EPO in 1996 and 1997.

To say we don't know he had talent to complete clean is way off. This guy had all the talent, lacked focus and restricted his boosting while others maximized theirs to make sure they could compete with Ullrich. Lanceypants feared Ullrich so much he turned into the neoHog, and forced his team to 'hog-it' as well.

 

[Bavarianrider]

All logically notions would suggest you are wrong.

-He won the U23 World clean.
-He won the 2000 RR Olympics clean
-He finished 2nd in 2000 ITT Olympics clean
-He was restricting his doping during 2001 & 2002 and still was second.
-Started autologous blooding later than 'other' riders and still placed top 5 over those years

No doubt the guy was maximizing EPO in 1996 and 1997.

To say we don't know he had talent to complete clean is way off. This guy had all the talent, lacked focus and restricted his boosting while others maximized theirs to make sure they could compete with Ullrich. Lanceypants feared Ullrich so much he turned into the neoHog, and forced his team to 'hog-it' as well.

He used it, but he didn't maximize it at all. According to D'Hont and Dietz Ullrich was among the Telekom rider who used Epo only in small amount compared to other team mebers. Especially compared to a certain Danish guy of course.

 

[Neworld]

He used it, but he didn't maximize it at all. According to D'Hont and Dietz Ullrich was among the Telekom rider who used Epo only in small amount compared to other team mebers. Especially compared to a certain Danish guy of course.

No wonder the guy became depressed and had a lack of motivation.

So he doesn't gorge himself with dope but DOES dope, and so probably had internal conflict with "well how bad do I want to be, dope just enough to keep up so lame riders don't drop me, or go the whole distance and start storing my blood for future reinjection."

Then, place second (or worse) year after year to a sociopath who creates a world of propaganda and becomes the Omerta ring-leader 'on the road'. He never got the same fame, money, momentary exhilaration...just despondency.

Finally, when boy wonder finally retires and he tries to return to the doping world while maximizing all forms of dope and team doping...mysteriously his (and other riders) doping ring is busted; just before the TdF. His last chance not only evaporated but his home country, and the cycling media, turn nasty.

I'm not trying to protect Jan in anyway. He doped and was a cheater too. He got caught. But when he was 'working' in a doping world, juicing towards the lagging edge of the Bell curve, he was still right there but always losing. Maybe that is why he was so depressed, doping (losing) to win(but still losing to a lesser rider).

The flip side is that he has paid dearly, has moved on...and in the near future who knows what he might reveal to further cleanse himself. And, he's probably a tonne of fun to drink beer with and shoot the ***.

 

[blackcat]

He used it, but he didn't maximize it at all. According to D'Hont and Dietz Ullrich was among the Telekom rider who used Epo only in small amount compared to other team mebers. Especially compared to a certain Danish guy of course.

Race Radio says that Udo Bolts was adamant Ullrich went backwards when the road kicked upwards before they got him on epo.

so dare say, it had an enormous affect

 

[roundabout]

All logically notions would suggest you are wrong.

-He won the U23 World clean.
-He won the 2000 RR Olympics clean
-He finished 2nd in 2000 ITT Olympics clean
-He was restricting his doping during 2001 & 2002 and still was second.
-Started autologous blooding later than 'other' riders and still placed top 5 over those years

No doubt the guy was maximizing EPO in 1996 and 1997.

To say we don't know he had talent to complete clean is way off. This guy had all the talent, lacked focus and restricted his boosting while others maximized theirs to make sure they could compete with Ullrich. Lanceypants feared Ullrich so much he turned into the neoHog, and forced his team to 'hog-it' as well.

I am sure that if it happened like you say it did, Ullrich would have no problems in looking back at his career. Right?

 

[webvan]

I think he never got over the way he left the sport. Hopefully Dopestrong's upcoming demise will helpnin that respect.

@blackcat - never heard that story, seems a bit odd, any links ?

 

[Roninho]

All logically notions would suggest you are wrong.

-He won the U23 World clean.
-He won the 2000 RR Olympics clean
-He finished 2nd in 2000 ITT Olympics clean
-He was restricting his doping during 2001 & 2002 and still was second.
-Started autologous blooding later than 'other' riders and still placed top 5 over those years

No doubt the guy was maximizing EPO in 1996 and 1997.

To say we don't know he had talent to complete clean is way off. This guy had all the talent, lacked focus and restricted his boosting while others maximized theirs to make sure they could compete with Ullrich. Lanceypants feared Ullrich so much he turned into the neoHog, and forced his team to 'hog-it' as well.

Based on what makes you say that ullrich raced clean in 2000?

I am and used to be a big ullrich supporter but all the signs are there that he doped and i see no reason why he would stop that.

 

[Race Radio]

Race Radio says that Udo Bolts was adamant Ullrich went backwards when the road kicked upwards before they got him on epo.

so dare say, it had an enormous affect

Ullrich was a good rider but a good doping program made him a great rider. He was a dominate U23 rider, won Worlds, but when he got on the Telekom program he suddenly climbed like he had a motor. It shocked everyone.

 

[Bobby G]

Ullrich was a good rider but a good doping program made him a great rider. He was a dominate U23 rider, won Worlds, but when he got on the Telekom program he suddenly climbed like he had a motor. It shocked everyone.

This is what I can't understand. Surely, in 2the mid-late 90s everyone was doped, right? So why so shocked when Ullrich climbs better when he joins the pros?