Joe Papp Doping Timeline

[Anonymous]

This thread is a good example of how things go lately and for a good while...someone opens a thread about an issue (an issue designed to go the way it has throughout the thread...I would call it uber-trolling)...and then ten pages of comments follow of people arguing about the legitamacy of the thread, the legitamacy of other threads, about who is banned and why, what others said... why folks won't listen to what certain others say and response back ect ect ect...I can't even think of all the nuances via the thread itself and issues that come up therein. Like some snake on bad LSD endlessly eating it's own tail... Back and forth ad nausuem...by the end of it, you seriously ask "what was this thread about again?" and then, "oh yeah....nothing"

 

[Wallace]

.I can't even think of all the nuances via the thread itself and issues that come up therein. Like some snake on bad LSD endlessly eating it's own tail... Back and forth ad nausuem..

Just out of curiosity, what would a snake on good LSD do?

 

[Anonymous]

This thread is a good example of how things go lately and for a good while...someone opens a thread about an issue (an issue designed to go the way it has throughout the thread...I would call it uber-trolling)...and then ten pages of comments follow of people arguing about the legitamacy of the thread, the legitamacy of other threads, about who is banned and why, what others said... why folks won't listen to what certain others say and response back ect ect ect...I can't even think of all the nuances via the thread itself and issues that come up therein. Like some snake on bad LSD endlessly eating it's own tail... Back and forth ad nausuem...by the end of it, you seriously ask "what was this thread about again?" and then, "oh yeah....nothing"

And then someone comes in and posts about how pointless things like this are, and how maddening they think it is. Everyone plays their part, huh?

 

[Cobblestoned]

more like exhausting you cannot have any opinion differing from the super la haters or you are a troll or fanboy its like dealing with children. im no fanboy of anyone but myself i dont put other men up on pedastals never have never will. i do not like la's attitude at all hes a ****er but some of the blind hatred for la and the love for that douche landis is ridiculous though its like la ****ed there wives or something. i see it as bitterness and also a way of compensating for there weaknesses its easy to say ones success was purely do to drugs than accept someone is better than you. i think there are a lot of ex racer burnouts on here who think they could have done well if only they had doped makes it easier to deal with there shortcomings. some prefer delusion over reality sadly.

Amen to that.. married with children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRFQpg0yYNk

As far as I have seen it, this forum/clinic is full of:
- big insiders, who know it all, but just can´t tell us
- clean ex-pros who got punished by LA and would have won the tour
- clean (ex)-pros, who exactly know that LA just doped most and is without talent - because they watched his SRM when they overtook him
- hobby cyclist that were punished because of LA and had to retire
- people who bought a used USPS bike and were told their money is used for dopingproducts and even got a certificate, that says for which product and rider the money was used
- people, who talked to people, that talked to people, who talked to people that threw away their livestrong bracelet
- people, who threw away their livestrong bracelet an talked to people, that talked to people, who talked to people, that throw away their livestrong bracelet
- people, who talked to people, that only survived cancer because they didn´t follow Armstrong on twitter
- people who don´t hate Armstrong, but...
- forgiving people who honestly always liked and believed in Floyd Landis
- forgiving people who honestly always liked and believed in Tyler Hamilton

tbc

 

[Anonymous]

Man, when people's pet hero turn out to be a complete fraud, they get kinda tweaked about it.

Hey, you forgot:
-people who feign detachment but only seem to post about how much they disagree with people who think he is a fraud.
-people who claim not to be fans of Armstrong, and are sick and tired of everyone bring his name into everything, who also only seem to post on threads that contain his name.
-some brilliant trolls

 

[forty four]

Amen to that.. married with children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRFQpg0yYNk

As far as I have seen it, this forum/clinic is full of:
- big insiders, who know it all, but just can´t tell us
- clean ex-pros who got punished by LA and would have won the tour
- clean (ex)-pros, who exactly know that LA just doped most and is without talent - because they watched his SRM when they overtook him
- hobby cyclist that were punished because of LA and had to retire
- people who bought a used USPS bike and were told their money is used for dopingproducts and even got a certificate, that says for which product and rider the money was used
- people, who talked to people, that talked to people, who talked to people that threw away their livestrong bracelet
- people, who threw away their livestrong bracelet an talked to people, that talked to people, who talked to people, that throw away their livestrong bracelet
- people, who talked to people, that only survived cancer because they didn´t follow Armstrong on twitter
- people who don´t hate Armstrong, but...
- forgiving people who honestly always liked and believed in Floyd Landis
- forgiving people who honestly always liked and believed in Tyler Hamilton

tbc

........classic lol

 

[Elagabalus]

Amen to that.. married with children
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RRFQpg0yYNk

As far as I have seen it, this forum/clinic is full of:
- big insiders, who know it all... believed in Floyd Landis
- forgiving people who honestly always liked and believed in Tyler Hamilton etc. etc.

tbc

Whaaaaa?! How unfair! Some of us just want to see him receive his well deserved "Lifetime Train-Wreck Award™"!!

 

[Cobblestoned]

Man, when people's pet hero turn out to be a complete fraud, they get kinda tweaked about it.

Hey, you forgot:
-people who feign detachment but only seem to post about how much they disagree with people who think he is a fraud.
-people who claim not to be fans of Armstrong, and are sick and tired of everyone bring his name into everything, who also only seem to post on threads that contain his name.
-some brilliant trolls

Man, when a (the) BIG ONE tumbles, the haters(trolls) get kinda trolling(hating) at its best.
Told ya I have seen it all.

also
- people who don´t care, how something seems
- people who don´t even think about placing extra-much alibiposts in the regular sportsforum
- people who don´t even care about (their) clinic/sports/LA-posts ratio

only to avoid answers like yours

I thought you were something like the final level BossMobtroll, but i´m already bored and disappointed.
Must be the tutorial. But the good thing is, that i learn some english

 

[Anonymous]

Man, when a (the) BIG ONE tumbles, the haters(trolls) get kinda trolling(hating) at its best.
Told ya I have seen it all.

also
- people who don´t care, how something seems
- people who don´t even think about placing extra-much alibiposts in the regular sportsforum
- people who don´t even care about (their) clinic/sports/LA-posts ratio

only to avoid answers like yours

I thought you were something like the final level BossMobtroll, but i´m already bored and disappointed.
Must be the tutorial. But the good thing is, that i learn some english

English is a proper noun and is therefore capitalized. You're welcome.

Hey, good luck with that whole grand jury thing!

also"
-people who believe that randomness and incoherence is clever.

 

[Anonymous]

........classic lol

Yea, Uniballer fans who are not aware of cycling before 1999 generally use the word "classic" pretty loosely.

 

[MacRoadie]

Yea, Uniballer fans who are not aware of cycling before 1999 generally use the word "classic" pretty loosely.

But only when they run into a situation where they can't figure out how to use "epic"...

 

[Polish]

It looks to me that during the time he has speaking out against the dangers of doping he was selling drugs. Am I missing something?

Frank, getting back on track, yes it DOES appear that way.

It seems that while Joe was extolling the benefits of HGH as an expert witness for the USADA, he was also pitching those very same benefits while selling EPO/HGH illegally over the interwebs. Same timeframe holy cow.

Also, thanks for the update on Joe's sentencing hearing Frank.

In these days of perks, priviledges, and "sweetheart deals" - do you think the USADA while plead for a lighter sentence for Joe at the sentencing hearing?

 

[QuickStepper]

The fact that the Op had a question about Joe, in and of it's self, is not the issue. Certainly, there is a connection between Joe and doping at Rock Racing, and Rock Racing is certainly a prominent part of the Novotzky investigation. In that regard, the nature of Joe's activities certainly is an appropriate Clinic topic.

While Joe has friends and supporters here, no one is suggesting that what he did wasn't wrong or that he should be applauded for his actions.

The point of contention I have is with the specific nature of the OP's question: it had nothing to do with what he sold, how he sold it, or to who he sold it: all questions of a highly probabtive nature and geared towards forwarding the discussion of the greater case.

Ok. as a relative newcomer here and someone who has read about Mr. Papp, Rock, Landis, etc., (and so as not to disappoint TFF who fully expects me to "feign detachment"--how about if I'm not feigning it, but am really detached? Does that count?), let me ask those questions which thus far, I don't think anyone, including Mr. Papp, has answered on this forum:

1. We know what he sold. According to the stories in Velo News and other print media, we've also read about "how" he sold HGH and EPO, i.e., over the internet. We've also read that he kept a relatively complete list of customers. So, that beng the case,

2. Who did he sell it to?

3. Perhaps also of more probative value to the current ongoing investigation, I've also read reports (e.g., in Velo News) from the time of the plea deal in 2/2010, where Mr. Papp was quoted as saying to the media something like, "I've done a lot to try to clean up the sport" and he referred to things he had done publicly (such as speaking before groups, etc.), and also "things I cannot reveal publicly" (or words to that effect). The latter comments caused many of those who covered the 2/2010 court hearings to speculate that this was an indication that Mr. Papp had been or was "cooperating" for some time prior to the plea deal with the investigation into Rock Racing specifically and in U.S. cycling in general, and possibly even that he had worked undercover with the federal investigators following his reported meeting with the U.S. Attorneys' office, which I believe was reported to have taken place in 2008 (I could be mistaken about the exact timing but that is what I recall...at any event it was sometime well before he struck the plea bargain which was the subject of the court hearings in Feb. 2010). So the question is, was Mr. Papp also working with the Feds in some sort of undercover operation and how might that play into the current investigation?

I ask these questions in all sincerity and because they involve doping in cycling, which is what I understand this part of the forum has been created to discuss. If anyone can shed any light on the questions I've posed, please do so. If you can't then either don't respond or simply say that you can't.

And please, I respectfully request that whoever responds refrains from asking me to e-mail Mr. Papp directly. I'm not interested in a private response. This is a matter of public importance. He has become a public figure, just as every other cyclist who has been mentioned here in the Clinic in connection with doping is a public figure. If he wants to respond, I know he's a member here, and can do so. Please also don't tell me that this topic has been covered previously at some other time or somewhere else in the forum, or that I should use the "search" function. I've done that and I have not seen direct answers to those questions anywhere else.

We have all read about how Rock Racing and perhaps its connections to Mr. Papp may have a link to the current investigation. We know Mr. Papp also testified at the Landis CAS arbitration and that Landis was reportedly a "consultant" to Rock Racing. There are a lot of dots, but as far as I know, the may or may not be connected or purely coincidental. I think it's therefore highly probative and relevant to ask whether there really is any connection between information that Mr. Papp may possess or may have provided to the federal investigators or which has been reported in other places that I and others may not know about has any bearing on the current reported investigation of the use of doping products and/or methods that may have occurred with other teams, other cyclists, whether here or in Europe, South America, Cuba, Australia, etc. Such information could give us all better insight into what the real scope is of the current investigation that we've all been talking about, and might also put to rest some of the speculation.

And just as an aside, I really don't know why this topic should have created such a firestorm or why someone didn't just simply answer the OP's question, rather than creating a war about what his "motivation" was for asking the question. If we can all just stop insulting each other long enough to provide some relevant or useful information, that might go a long way towards informing the rest of us who aren't "insiders" about what's real and what's just speculation at best, or libelous and baseless allegations at worst.

 

[MacRoadie]

Frank, getting back on track, yes it DOES appear that way.

It seems that while Joe was extolling the benefits of HGH as an expert witness for the USADA, he was also pitching those very same benefits while selling EPO/HGH illegally over the interwebs. Same timeframe holy cow.

Also, thanks for the update on Joe's sentencing hearing Frank.

In these days of perks, priviledges, and "sweetheart deals" - do you think the USADA while plead for a lighter sentence for Joe at the sentencing hearing?

Yep. Perks, priviledges, sweetheart deals, and Joe's a bad guy.

Oh yeah, and that still doesn't change the fact that Lance is still under investigation by the feds.

 

[Cobblestoned]

English is a proper noun and is therefore capitalized. You're welcome.

Hey, good luck with that whole grand jury thing!

also"
-people who believe that randomness and incoherence is clever.

Thanks. Wish you luck, too.
I learned a lot...

English. English. English. English. English. English. English. English. English. English.

 

[Cobblestoned]

Yea, Uniballer fans who are not aware of cycling before 1999 generally use the word "classic" pretty loosely.

Looking at the hatersrules, it must mean that double-chin fans like me were not aware of cycling before summer 1997.
So I can proudly say, that I have 2 more years of experience.

You should be aware of that and you must also know, that most of the classics are part of my trainingarea.

PS: If I were you, I would have added "summer" to the 1999. Thats just a gold edge...but I know you still got a lot to learn.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I will attempt to answer your question (& I will answer it how I wish, not how you wish) - so will cut your original long post to the relevant section.

Ok.....

1. We know what he sold. According to the stories in Velo News and other print media, we've also read about "how" he sold HGH and EPO, i.e., over the internet. We've also read that he kept a relatively complete list of customers. So, that beng the case,

2. Who did he sell it to?

3. ........ So the question is, was Mr. Papp also working with the Feds in some sort of undercover operation and how might that play into the current investigation?

I ask these questions in all sincerity and because they involve doping in cycling, ..... Such information could give us all better insight into what the real scope is of the current investigation that we've all been talking about, and might also put to rest some of the speculation.

Unless we have the actual legal documents then anything offered is speculation -we know Leogrande was snared with some assistance from Joe.
Other than that, you have read the Velonews article at the time so are as informed as anyone else.

And just as an aside, I really don't know why this topic should have created such a firestorm or why someone didn't just simply answer the OP's question, rather than creating a war about what his "motivation" was for asking the question. If we can all just stop insulting each other long enough to provide some relevant or useful information, that might go a long way towards informing the rest of us who aren't "insiders" about what's real and what's just speculation at best, or libelous and baseless allegations at worst.

What was the OP's question??..... "what am i missing?" - they weren't missing anything.
And on a topic that has been covered by numerous threads that were opened at the time and in the absence of no new information, I don't see any problem in questioning their motives.

I am not an insider- you can do what you like with any information I offer, and I am delighted it is in the hands of the proper authorities is being investigated and that he faces the consequences of his actions.

 

[QuickStepper]

Thank you for your response.

What about Question No. 2? Has the list of people who bought from Mr. Papp ever been made public?

Again, thank you for your civil reply.

 

[Anonymous]

Ok. as a relative newcomer here and someone who has read about Mr. Papp, Rock, Landis, etc., (and so as not to disappoint TFF who fully expects me to "feign detachment"--how about if I'm not feigning it, but am really detached? Does that count?), let me ask those questions which thus far, I don't think anyone, including Mr. Papp, has answered on this forum:

If you actually WERE detached, you wouldn't keep coming here trying to convince someone you don't know that you are. Keep hacking away at the bushes, it only confirms what I have suspected thus far.

 

[Anonymous]

Looking at the hatersrules, it must mean that double-chin fans like me were not aware of cycling before summer 1997.
So I can proudly say, that I have 2 more years of experience.

You should be aware of that and you must also know, that most of the classics are part of my trainingarea.

PS: If I were you, I would have added "summer" to the 1999. Thats just a gold edge...but I know you still got a lot to learn.

So you like classic porn? Good to know you are working things out with that. Hey, do they have the internet in Bangladesh, or do you have to use magazines and mail your posts in?

 

[QuickStepper]

OK, I want to thank TFF for the interruption once again and his completely irrelevant response. (And as a side note, I'm now beginning to appreciate Cali_Joe's observation that TFF responds not to the substance of a post, but instead responds by attacking the poster's character or motivations or intentions, an excellent rehtorical trick to divert attention).

So, I'll ask again: Does anyone know the answer to Question No. 2?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Thank you for your response.

What about Question No. 2? Has the list of people who bought from Mr. Papp ever been made public?

Again, thank you for your civil reply.

Simple answer - no.

Nor would I expect any of that information to come to light until after Joe's case is dealt with.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, I want to thank TFF for the interruption once again with a completely irrelevant response.

Does anyone know the answer to Question No. 2?

You addressed me in your post and I responded. I hope you are better determining chain of events with your clients.

 

[QuickStepper]

Simple answer - no.

Nor would I expect any of that information to come to light until after Joe's case is dealt with.

Thanks for the response.

 

[Anonymous]

OK, I want to thank TFF for the interruption once again and his completely irrelevant response. (And as a side note, I'm now beginning to appreciate Cali_Joe's observation that TFF responds not to the substance of a post, but instead responds by attacking the poster's character or motivations or intentions, an excellent rehtorical trick to divert attention).

So, I'll ask again: Does anyone know the answer to Question No. 2?

Hey, feel free to put me on ignore. You do know how to use ignore right? If not, PM me and I will give you a primer.

The bolded area is an example of irony. Copy and paste if for future reference.