Joe Papp pleads guilty to distributing drugs, pt 2

[131313]

seriously??

I'm dumbfounded by most of the responses on this thread.

-'please, don't judge Poor Joe until you know the details'. huh?? Isn't this entire forum predicated on passing judgment on people, often times (though certainly not all) based on nothing BUT speculation?

There are plenty of facts surrounding Joe: he chose to cheat other competitors who competed cleanly, and he chose to sell drugs illegally for profit. That's not speculation, that's fact.

-'his heart is in the right place now, so that makes it OK'. Well, maybe it is. However, to my eye he seems to have, at every single turn, taken the expedient route. He became anti-drug after getting busted for using. He then became an outspoken critic and naming names after getting busted for selling. What am I missing here?

-'well, Joe's not as bad as Lance.' Umm... is it possible to bring up anying, like what color should I paint my bike, without bringing up Lance?

-'the people who badmouth Joe are just Lance-Loving Omerta enforcers'. Well, I'm sure it's convenient for the outspoken rebel, Joe Papp, for people to feel that way. It's utter bull shyte

I'm not here to pass judgment on JP. That's the job of the sport's sanctioning body and the criminal justice system. He's probably going to end up doing some time, and from what is known right now that certainly seems reasonable.

However, to laud him as some sort of anti-drug hero and to claim 'his heart is in the right place' now is downright offensive to anyone who actually does believe in clean, fair competition, and to those athletes who've taken a stand with their governing bodies and their team management, often to their own detriment, but do so out of the limelight because they're trying to help foster some actual change versus getting more hits to their blog page so they can market themselves. And I'm not just talking about myself. There are several riders who have taken a proactive stand within the sport, and I can tell you that it's not a popular thing to do.

Lastly, he seems to be hanging his hat on the Kayle thing. All I can say is that he is far from being solely responsible for KL getting suspended, even if he had a very small part. That's all I'm going to say on that subject, so don't bother asking. His comments about the KL situation are completely self-serving though, and certainly make his motives clear to me.

 

[flicker]

I wonder what kind of deal Joe worked out with the FEDs? A friend of a friend of a friend sold enhancements to body builders in San Diego. Smuggled the PEDs over through Tiajuana into San Diego. Guy got 20 year sentence.

 

[lean mean &green]

I'm dumbfounded by most of the responses on this thread.

-'please, don't judge Poor Joe until you know the details'. huh?? Isn't this entire forum predicated on passing judgment on people, often times (though certainly not all) based on nothing BUT speculation?

There are plenty of facts surrounding Joe: he chose to cheat other competitors who competed cleanly, and he chose to sell drugs illegally for profit. That's not speculation, that's fact.

-'his heart is in the right place now, so that makes it OK'. Well, maybe it is. However, to my eye he seems to have, at every single turn, taken the expedient route. He became anti-drug after getting busted for using. He then became an outspoken critic and naming names after getting busted for selling. What am I missing here?

-'well, Joe's not as bad as Lance.' Umm... is it possible to bring up anying, like what color should I paint my bike, without bringing up Lance?

-'the people who badmouth Joe are just Lance-Loving Omerta enforcers'. Well, I'm sure it's convenient for the outspoken rebel, Joe Papp, for people to feel that way. It's utter bull shyte

I'm not here to pass judgment on JP. That's the job of the sport's sanctioning body and the criminal justice system. He's probably going to end up doing some time, and from what is known right now that certainly seems reasonable.

However, to laud him as some sort of anti-drug hero and to claim 'his heart is in the right place' now is downright offensive to anyone who actually does believe in clean, fair competition, and to those athletes who've taken a stand with their governing bodies and their team management, often to their own detriment, but do so out of the limelight because they're trying to help foster some actual change versus getting more hits to their blog page so they can market themselves. And I'm not just talking about myself. There are several riders who have taken a proactive stand within the sport, and I can tell you that it's not a popular thing to do.

Lastly, he seems to be hanging his hat on the Kayle thing. All I can say is that he is far from being solely responsible for KL getting suspended, even if he had a very small part. That's all I'm going to say on that subject, so don't bother asking. His comments about the KL situation are completely self-serving though, and certainly make his motives clear to me.

+1

thanks for saving me from having to write this................again

 

[flicker]

My wife is a nurse and whenever I get into controversy about a doping case I always refer to her. Have the athletes who bought PEDs from Joe been tested for melamine? Also I might add the 2 factories that produce Ephedra are located in India and China. Can anyone buy Ephedra from those 2 factories?

 

[MacRoadie]

Lastly, he seems to be hanging his hat on the Kayle thing. All I can say is that he is far from being solely responsible for KL getting suspended, even if he had a very small part. That's all I'm going to say on that subject, so don't bother asking. His comments about the KL situation are completely self-serving though, and certainly make his motives clear to me.

Spot on...

 

[LastRide]

I'm dumbfounded by most of the responses on this thread.

-'please, don't judge Poor Joe until you know the details'. huh?? Isn't this entire forum predicated on passing judgment on people, often times (though certainly not all) based on nothing BUT speculation?

There are plenty of facts surrounding Joe: he chose to cheat other competitors who competed cleanly, and he chose to sell drugs illegally for profit. That's not speculation, that's fact.

-'his heart is in the right place now, so that makes it OK'. Well, maybe it is. However, to my eye he seems to have, at every single turn, taken the expedient route. He became anti-drug after getting busted for using. He then became an outspoken critic and naming names after getting busted for selling. What am I missing here?

-'well, Joe's not as bad as Lance.' Umm... is it possible to bring up anying, like what color should I paint my bike, without bringing up Lance?

-'the people who badmouth Joe are just Lance-Loving Omerta enforcers'. Well, I'm sure it's convenient for the outspoken rebel, Joe Papp, for people to feel that way. It's utter bull shyte

I'm not here to pass judgment on JP. That's the job of the sport's sanctioning body and the criminal justice system. He's probably going to end up doing some time, and from what is known right now that certainly seems reasonable.

However, to laud him as some sort of anti-drug hero and to claim 'his heart is in the right place' now is downright offensive to anyone who actually does believe in clean, fair competition, and to those athletes who've taken a stand with their governing bodies and their team management, often to their own detriment, but do so out of the limelight because they're trying to help foster some actual change versus getting more hits to their blog page so they can market themselves. And I'm not just talking about myself. There are several riders who have taken a proactive stand within the sport, and I can tell you that it's not a popular thing to do.

Lastly, he seems to be hanging his hat on the Kayle thing. All I can say is that he is far from being solely responsible for KL getting suspended, even if he had a very small part. That's all I'm going to say on that subject, so don't bother asking. His comments about the KL situation are completely self-serving though, and certainly make his motives clear to me.

Totally agree. Thanks for telling it how it is.

 

[IntheMidwest]

1313131313, agree on hanging the hat on Kayle. But Kayle's an idiot for letting JP take photo's of the whole thing, either that, or JP's deceptive as hell, which we're all kindof leaning towards at this point. Good post on the reality of things, well said.

 

[Race Radio]

I'm dumbfounded by most of the responses on this thread.

-'please, don't judge Poor Joe until you know the details'. huh?? Isn't this entire forum predicated on passing judgment on people, often times (though certainly not all) based on nothing BUT speculation?

There are plenty of facts surrounding Joe: he chose to cheat other competitors who competed cleanly, and he chose to sell drugs illegally for profit. That's not speculation, that's fact.

-'his heart is in the right place now, so that makes it OK'. Well, maybe it is. However, to my eye he seems to have, at every single turn, taken the expedient route. He became anti-drug after getting busted for using. He then became an outspoken critic and naming names after getting busted for selling. What am I missing here?

-'well, Joe's not as bad as Lance.' Umm... is it possible to bring up anying, like what color should I paint my bike, without bringing up Lance?

-'the people who badmouth Joe are just Lance-Loving Omerta enforcers'. Well, I'm sure it's convenient for the outspoken rebel, Joe Papp, for people to feel that way. It's utter bull shyte

I'm not here to pass judgment on JP. That's the job of the sport's sanctioning body and the criminal justice system. He's probably going to end up doing some time, and from what is known right now that certainly seems reasonable.

However, to laud him as some sort of anti-drug hero and to claim 'his heart is in the right place' now is downright offensive to anyone who actually does believe in clean, fair competition, and to those athletes who've taken a stand with their governing bodies and their team management, often to their own detriment, but do so out of the limelight because they're trying to help foster some actual change versus getting more hits to their blog page so they can market themselves. And I'm not just talking about myself. There are several riders who have taken a proactive stand within the sport, and I can tell you that it's not a popular thing to do.

Lastly, he seems to be hanging his hat on the Kayle thing. All I can say is that he is far from being solely responsible for KL getting suspended, even if he had a very small part. That's all I'm going to say on that subject, so don't bother asking. His comments about the KL situation are completely self-serving though, and certainly make his motives clear to me.

Good post.

While the latest info on Joe is limited it certainly is enough to question what is real about his story.

 

[michaelmast]

I think...

"Listen, my son. Trust no one! You can count on no one but yourself. Improve your skills, son. Harden your body. Become a number one man. Do not ever let anyone beat you!"

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

The reason I brought up Kayle (someone else did, but I furthered it) was the dates in question as the incident with Kayle was after the Flandis hearing.

True, a lot of judgment flies around here. Often by me. I'm just asking that some people study up and look into details. Some people here want to not just yell at the guy for his past, but burn the man at the stake before even hearing more information.

 

[Anonymous]

I'm dumbfounded by most of the responses on this thread.

-'please, don't judge Poor Joe until you know the details'. huh?? Isn't this entire forum predicated on passing judgment on people, often times (though certainly not all) based on nothing BUT speculation?

No, it isn't. It is predicated on judging evidence that some believe is a great big conspiracy.

There are plenty of facts surrounding Joe: he chose to cheat other competitors who competed cleanly, and he chose to sell drugs illegally for profit. That's not speculation, that's fact.

Find where anyone said differently

-'his heart is in the right place now, so that makes it OK'. Well, maybe it is. However, to my eye he seems to have, at every single turn, taken the expedient route. He became anti-drug after getting busted for using. He then became an outspoken critic and naming names after getting busted for selling. What am I missing here?

No, it doesn't make it okay. It also doesn't exclude him from being judged on his most recent actions, all of which seem genuine to me.

-'well, Joe's not as bad as Lance.' Umm... is it possible to bring up anying, like what color should I paint my bike, without bringing up Lance?

Uh, you brought him up.

-'the people who badmouth Joe are just Lance-Loving Omerta enforcers'. Well, I'm sure it's convenient for the outspoken rebel, Joe Papp, for people to feel that way. It's utter bull shyte

Its funny, if you read the postings of many of the people who attack him, many back riders like Landis who also got caught and took the cowards "IT wasn't me, it was my first time, the French are coming, I had a twin" cop-outs of slimy little dickcheeses. I for one always give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who is trying to come clean.

I'm not here to pass judgment on JP.

You write that and have the nerve to lambast the dishonesty of another. Got irony?

That's the job of the sport's sanctioning body and the criminal justice system. He's probably going to end up doing some time, and from what is known right now that certainly seems reasonable.

Really, then why are you here passing judgment? As for his punishment, he plead guilty, I think he has accepted his responsibility and knows more about dealing with his impending sentencing than anyone here.

However, to laud him as some sort of anti-drug hero and to claim 'his heart is in the right place' now is downright offensive to anyone who actually does believe in clean, fair competition, and to those athletes who've taken a stand with their governing bodies and their team management, often to their own detriment, but do so out of the limelight because they're trying to help foster some actual change versus getting more hits to their blog page so they can market themselves. And I'm not just talking about myself. There are several riders who have taken a proactive stand within the sport, and I can tell you that it's not a popular thing to do.

Yea, 99% of the cheaters who get caught hide behind bullshyte excuses because they have the honesty and courage of a sack of wet vomit.

Lastly, he seems to be hanging his hat on the Kayle thing. All I can say is that he is far from being solely responsible for KL getting suspended, even if he had a very small part. That's all I'm going to say on that subject, so don't bother asking. His comments about the KL situation are completely self-serving though, and certainly make his motives clear to me.

Kayle is a smarmy little skunk of a cheat who doped like a junkie and cried like a little baby because he got busted. He is a punk, and from your statement, it appears you know him. How many other scummy friends do you have?

 

[Epicycle]

This article in his hometown paper says Joe ran the eposino.com website.

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_667726.html

Not sure if that's true or if he was just the middleman. $80,000 in a year kind of makes me think he was the one behind the website.

There was a lot of info in the eposino.com forum about different doping techniques and how to beat the testing process. That forum also passed out the L.A. Confidential english translation which most people had never seen. But eposino.com provided it as inspiration for those who wanted to dope.

Eposino.com disappeared around the time the feds say Joe stopped dealing. There were rumors of still being able to get stuff from eposino even after the website went down but I can't say that happened for sure. Whoever was behind the website was stupid to do so much visible promoting of it online and importing PEDs from China was not smart with the Bejing Olympics looming.

 

[Polish]

True, a lot of judgment flies around here. Often by me. I'm just asking that some people study up and look into details.

"Tell that to the families of the riders who have died because of EPO".

I hear that expression tossed around a lot in The Clinic too.

Would Mr Papp have stopped dealing EPO and HGH in 2007 if he had not been caught doping and dealing? We all would like to think Yes. But if Joe were to answer "No" at least I would appreciate his honesty.

 

[flicker]

I for one always give the benefit of the doubt to the guy who is trying to come clean. I say once a cheat always a cheat. Lie once in court and get caught and no judge will give creadence to further testimony of the defendent.

The time to come clean is #1 don't do the dirty deed.

The cyclist who has come clean after being caught to me is most likely the cyclist would continue to cheat until the end of his career if he had not been caught. Although it is admirable to come clean there are many reasons not to come clean. Omerta.

I believe most riders who do come clean do that to save their careers.

Case in point David Millar,World Champion.

All that I am saying is don't do the crime. After one is caught...well that is a mess.

 

[Race Radio]

This article in his hometown paper says Joe ran the eposino.com website.

http://pittsburghlive.com/x/pittsburghtrib/sports/s_667726.html

Not sure if that's true or if he was just the middleman. $80,000 in a year kind of makes me think he was the one behind the website.

There was a lot of info in the eposino.com forum about different doping techniques and how to beat the testing process. That forum also passed out the L.A. Confidential english translation which most people had never seen. But eposino.com provided it as inspiration for those who wanted to dope.

Eposino.com disappeared around the time the feds say Joe stopped dealing. There were rumors of still being able to get stuff from eposino even after the website went down but I can't say that happened for sure. Whoever was behind the website was stupid to do so much visible promoting of it online and importing PEDs from China was not smart with the Bejing Olympics looming.

I thought that was the site. Very distasteful stuff. It was blatant in it's enthusiasm for doping.

 

[Hugh Januss]

I thought that was the site. Very distasteful stuff. It was blatant in it's enthusiasm for doping.

I am beginning to believe that speaking out against doping is the only stand-up thing JP has ever done, and even that only under duress. Maybe it's a case of accepting the message but not the messenger.
In all of this he seems less and less different to all the other dopers around him. The leap of logic that leads some to assume that this somehow makes all the others less bad is lost on me however.

 

[Mambo95]

Joe Papp apologists and Lance Armstrong apologists - two sides of the same coin if you ask me.

The hypocracy and double standards of some on here is hillarious.

 

[flicker]

Joe Papp apologists and Lance Armstrong apologists - too sides of the same coin if you ask me.

Please, please do not mention Mr. Joe Papp and my Lord Armstrong in the same sentence.

 

[patricknd]

I thought that was the site. Very distasteful stuff. It was blatant in it's enthusiasm for doping.

you and i have disagreed in the past but i have to say that you are one of the most consistently on message people posting here, and i respect that. you are definitely not an apologist.

 

[BroDeal]

This article in his hometown paper says Joe ran the eposino.com website.

Okay, for some reason I find that funny. I used to visit their forum. There was lots of good info there.

Looks like Joe followed the principle of go big or go home. It took balls--or something--to run a dope source that was so obvious.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

you and i have disagreed in the past but i have to say that you are one of the most consistently on message people posting here, and i respect that. you are definitely not an apologist.

Patrick - I have read all your post's and while there are a few I could respectfully disagree with, when I read this post from the 'Landis' thread earlier today the sheer enormity of Joe's crime's hit home.

with 187 customers i don't know that I'd call him small fry......

187 - that is not just distributing amongst friends/teammates or being the head of a Co-Op. This is an enterprise - dealing!

I was one of those who felt he had 'done his time' - however it seems the more we learn of his 'enterprise' he needs to be doing a lot more time.

 

[patricknd]

Patrick - I have read all your post's and while there are a few I could respectfully disagree with, when I read this post from the 'Landis' thread earlier today the sheer enormity of Joe's crime's hit home.


187 - that is not just distributing amongst friends/teammates or being the head of a Co-Op. This is an enterprise - dealing!

I was one of those who felt he had 'done his time' - however it seems the more we learn of his 'enterprise' he needs to be doing a lot more time.

when i read about his guilty plea my first thought was that he was probably selling enough to defray the cost of his own program, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that it started that way. now i wonder if all of his business was to end users or were there a few re-sellers in the mix as well. i doubt that will ever come out but i can't help but wonder about it.

 

[BroDeal]

when i read about his guilty plea my first thought was that he was probably selling enough to defray the cost of his own program, and it wouldn't surprise me at all to find out that it started that way. now i wonder if all of his business was to end users or were there a few re-sellers in the mix as well. i doubt that will ever come out but i can't help but wonder about it.

That is what I assumed: That he was probably selling to a few friends, maybe people he coached, riders from other countries who needed a connection, etc. You can never trust reports about someone using the Internet for something, so I discounted it. Someone has a facebook page plus uses e-mail and they are "running a website." But operating eposino.com certainly changes the situation.

He is probably lucky he did not get stuck with a metric buttload of charges like mail fraud, wire fraud, etc. It also sheds some light on why he was willing to give a complete confesssion to the USADA and have all his results nullified along with turning on Leogrande. Dude must be desperate to appear as helpful and contrite as possible.

 

[Oldman]

Patrick - I have read all your post's and while there are a few I could respectfully disagree with, when I read this post from the 'Landis' thread earlier today the sheer enormity of Joe's crime's hit home.


187 - that is not just distributing amongst friends/teammates or being the head of a Co-Op. This is an enterprise - dealing!

I was one of those who felt he had 'done his time' - however it seems the more we learn of his 'enterprise' he needs to be doing a lot more time.

Hopefully he will do the time and continue to provide real information like he has on these forums; not just give up a few more riders to save himself. As for those that lump "apologists" together we all should base opinion on fact as much as possible. Comparing his drug dealing with LA's highjacking of a sport is a big stretch and simplistic thinking by some (not you).

 

[BroDeal]

Comparing his drug dealing with LA's highjacking of a sport is a big stretch and simplistic thinking by some (not you).

You are right. Armstrong is far worse. Armstrong is an example of what can be gained from doping. People then turn to guys like Joe to provide the means to follow Armstrong's example .