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Johan Bruyneel Discussion thread.

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Fowsto Cope-E said:
TFF is not saying that it was wrong of him to have "wheelsucked" Indurain just as much as he's not saying that it was wrong for him to have had Lance and Contador on his Tour team. He's just saying that he doesn't really deserve the infamy.

Anyway, I find it somewhat odd that he is complaining about the Schlecks not getting any wins yet, because it's not like Lance would have won anything at this point in the year either (except maybe the Tour de Georgia).

It appears to me to be more of a saving face reaction. He says he talked with Frank prior to his abandoning and was given no indication that his injuries were such that a dnf was in the cards. His rep as cycling's Svengali is under seige, considering the mass of talent (Cancellara and stage race) that they accumulated with the Leopard/Shack merger. No ToC win, no victories in the cobbled classics. The Schleck's have been a disappointment to him apparently. Maybe he thought he could simply motivate them with his sheer presence.

Fuglsang stated in an article (Pro Cycling mag I believe) that the difference between his time with Shack last year and this year's team is that the riders are left to their own devices when it comes to training and prep while last year it was much more hands-on and individualized. That would IMO be a recipe for disaster with Andy considering rumoured his lax attitude towards training.
 
Oct 17, 2011
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Fowsto Cope-E said:
TFF is not saying that it was wrong of him to have "wheelsucked" Indurain just as much as he's not saying that it was wrong for him to have had Lance and Contador on his Tour team. He's just saying that he doesn't really deserve the infamy.

Anyway, I find it somewhat odd that he is complaining about the Schlecks not getting any wins yet, because it's not like Lance would have won anything at this point in the year either (except maybe the Tour de Georgia).

Uhm Lance won the Tour de Suisse in 2001 with 2 TT stage wins, and he won the dauphine libere in 2002/2003, Tour de Georgia in 2005.

Also check all the other stages/TT:

1999 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Prologue)
Route du Sud (Stage 4)
Circuit de la Sarthe (ITT) (Stage 4)
2nd, Amstel Gold Race

2000 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win)
GP des Nations
Grand Prix Eddy Merckx (with Viatcheslav Ekimov)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Stage 3)
Bronze medal in the 2000 Summer Olympics Individual Time Trial, Men

2001 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Tour de Suisse (overall, 2 stage wins)
2nd, Amstel Gold Race

2002 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 6)
GP du Midi Libre (overall)
Profronde van Stiphout (post-Tour criterium)

2003 - US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
presented by Berry Floor
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 3 ITT)

2004 - US Postal Service pro Cycling Team
presented by Berry Floor
Tour de France (overall, 5 stage wins, Team Time Trial)
Tour de Georgia (overall, 2 stage wins)
Tour du Languedoc-Roussillon (Stage 5)
Volta ao Algarve (ITT) (Stage 4)
Profronde van Stiphout (post-Tour criterium)

2005 - Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (points classification)

He won plenty compared to the Schlecks
 
Mar 11, 2009
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Angliru said:
That would IMO be a recipe for disaster with Andy considering rumoured his lax attitude towards training.
Not just your post, but the more I read "lax attidude to training" "DNFs and poor results in the spring" "on form for the TDF" the more it sounds like the standard Jan Ullrich narrative (absent the fat jokes).
 
Dec 30, 2011
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"Last week, Bruyneel pointedly noted that only Fabian Cancellara was guaranteed selection for the Tour"

Does that include Andy or not......?
A bit strange if it doesnt
 
Froome19 said:
"Last week, Bruyneel pointedly noted that only Fabian Cancellara was guaranteed selection for the Tour"

Does that include Andy or not......?
A bit strange if it doesnt
It clearly doesn't. But everybody -- including the Schlecks -- understands that Andy is pretty much guaranteed a spot. He could leave out Fränk of course, but I can't really see that happening either.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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webbie146 said:
Uhm Lance won the Tour de Suisse in 2001 with 2 TT stage wins, and he won the dauphine libere in 2002/2003, Tour de Georgia in 2005.

Also check all the other stages/TT:

1999 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Prologue)
Route du Sud (Stage 4)
Circuit de la Sarthe (ITT) (Stage 4)
2nd, Amstel Gold Race

2000 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win)
GP des Nations
Grand Prix Eddy Merckx (with Viatcheslav Ekimov)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (ITT) (Stage 3)
Bronze medal in the 2000 Summer Olympics Individual Time Trial, Men

2001 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Tour de Suisse (overall, 2 stage wins)
2nd, Amstel Gold Race

2002 - U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 4 stage wins)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 6)
GP du Midi Libre (overall)
Profronde van Stiphout (post-Tour criterium)

2003 - US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team
presented by Berry Floor
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (overall, Stage 3 ITT)

2004 - US Postal Service pro Cycling Team
presented by Berry Floor
Tour de France (overall, 5 stage wins, Team Time Trial)
Tour de Georgia (overall, 2 stage wins)
Tour du Languedoc-Roussillon (Stage 5)
Volta ao Algarve (ITT) (Stage 4)
Profronde van Stiphout (post-Tour criterium)

2005 - Discovery Channel Pro Cycling Team
Tour de France (overall, 1 stage win, Team Time Trial)
Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré (points classification)

He won plenty compared to the Schlecks

Right... the only major wins in that list are the Dauphine, Tour de Suisse, and Tour de France... all of which haven't happened yet this year. So my point still stands that at this point in the season Armstrong may have only won a small race like the Tour de Georgia or GP du Midi Libre.
 
Fowsto Cope-E said:
Right... the only major wins in that list are the Dauphine, Tour de Suisse, and Tour de France... all of which haven't happened yet this year. So my point still stands that at this point in the season Armstrong may have only won a small race like the Tour de Georgia or GP du Midi Libre.

He also tested positive at the 2001 Tour de Suisse so that one doesn’t count.
 
May 27, 2012
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MrRoboto said:
Maybe Bruyneel should consider dividing his team in two in the Tour. That seemed to work great last time with two podium spots :D

Yea, maybe he can get Frank to attack in the crosswind to teach Andy a lesson to not be on the wrong wheel. That did wonders for team morale...why, it was "genius" because it got Contador to see that The Hog was not too interested in him winning, and so Contador did what he had to in order to win the Tour. Brilliant strategy there, "genius" I say...Did you hear that Frank, you might have a chance to get second in the TdF this year instead of your brother!
 
Carols said:
Taken a token pull or two so he didn't get labeled a wheelsucker for eternity.

Then he taught Hincapie how to do it also....so George wins the Queen Stage at le Tour...still makes me mad and I reallt Like Big George.
You wanted him to pull? You realize his team leaders, Zülle (2nd in the final GC) and Jalabert (4th) were behind, right?
 
You have to appreciate the context of my viewing it :) It was with my dad, may he R.I.P., an expro. He was stomping around and making noises of disgust and saying things like 'draft off Indurain is like following a mac truck'. He had no respect for wheelsuckers :)

Like I said tactically it was the right thing to do.....didn't make it 'correct' behavior or a show of strength to an ex pro :D

Same for Scheck TTTs....*** never even took a pull. Yes the tactical thing to do, but a show of Weakness. Glad my dad never saw that one ROTFL.

My dad taught me to appreciate Strength, Attacking and making the Big Move and to despise those who profit for the Strength of others for their glory. But then he was a hardman :)
 
Jul 24, 2011
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Carols said:
You have to appreciate the context of my viewing it :) It was with my dad, may he R.I.P., an expro. He was stomping around and making noises of disgust and saying things like 'draft off Indurain is like following a mac truck'. He had no respect for wheelsuckers :)

Like I said tactically it was the right thing to do.....didn't make it 'correct' behavior or a show of strength to an ex pro :D

Same for Scheck TTTs....*** never even took a pull. Yes the tactical thing to do, but a show of Weakness. Glad my dad never saw that one ROTFL.

My dad taught me to appreciate Strength, Attacking and making the Big Move and to despise those who profit for the Strength of others for their glory. But then he was a hardman :)

if your father, an expro, didn't know his cycling, then of course we can't expect you to do so.
 
woodenswan said:
if your father, an expro, didn't know his cycling, then of course we can't expect you to do so.

Feel free to insult me all you want but my dad has a plaque on the wall of the US Cycling Hall of Fame so lay off him. He knew more about riding a bike then 99% of the people on this forum.

Granted what is valued and a more humane and tactically educated generation is around now. He was old school and I am 62...guess I'm oldschool also.

So let me rephrase Bruyneel should have gone to the front and tried to subtley slow Indurain down......
 
Oct 30, 2011
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ChewbaccaD said:
Sorry, none of what you say changes the fact that he sucked Mig's wheel and sprinted past to take the win. That isn't bias, that is what happened. As for his DS "genius," I think we all know the real reason for that.

When someone says "wheelsucked" I read "drafted and was morally wrong to do so". Yes, he drafted, I don't believe that it's morally wrong in that situation. Do nothing in the breakaway when you aren't covering for a leader, that's poor form. The flip side of the coin is that if he takes the front, he gets labelled a rubbish team-mate for eternity, even if he claims that he's slowing them down. You can't please all of the people all of the time.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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I'm not exactly enamoured of Bruyneel as a DS but his win at Liège was a product of wheelsucking. He made the attack and Indurain jumped across to him. Cycling is not always about working bit & bit to stay away, especially when you are riding a stage race. Bruyneel couldn't work with Indurain for political reasons, and wasn't able to even if he was released from his obligations to Zulle & Jalabert. As he says in this article from the time

http://articles.latimes.com/1995-07-09/sports/sp-21945_1_time-trial

"He was incredible, it was like riding behind a motorbike," said Bruyneel, who has a 31-second lead over Indurain in the overall standings. "He will be real tough to beat in the time trial. I saw it from up close."
 
Jun 2, 2010
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Fowsto Cope-E said:
...
Anyway, I find it somewhat odd that he is complaining about the Schlecks not getting any wins yet, because it's not like Lance would have won anything at this point in the year either (except maybe the Tour de Georgia).

Yes, but with Lance he was almost guaranteed a win in the TdF, or at least a strong performance. With Schlecks... he is not.

About places on the team - to me it really tells a lot about bad climate in the team.
 
ChewbaccaD said:
Look, we get it, you like wheelsucking winners. Lots of people like thieves. But Bruyneel is no Robin Hood. No, he is no Robin Hood.
I don't like Bruyneel, but to say he should have pulled is ridiculous and just shows you're so blinded by hatred you can't look at the situation objectively.

Your hatred for the guy is warranted, but allowing yourself to be blinded by it isn't doing you any favours. Neither is your ridiculous strawmanning.
 
May 8, 2009
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Angliru said:
It appears to me to be more of a saving face reaction. He says he talked with Frank prior to his abandoning and was given no indication that his injuries were such that a dnf was in the cards. His rep as cycling's Svengali is under seige, considering the mass of talent (Cancellara and stage race) that they accumulated with the Leopard/Shack merger. No ToC win, no victories in the cobbled classics. The Schleck's have been a disappointment to him apparently. Maybe he thought he could simply motivate them with his sheer presence.

Fuglsang stated in an article (Pro Cycling mag I believe) that the difference between his time with Shack last year and this year's team is that the riders are left to their own devices when it comes to training and prep while last year it was much more hands-on and individualized. That would IMO be a recipe for disaster with Andy considering rumoured his lax attitude towards training.

Interesting to hear. However, I think Andy has his own coaching setup around him (including Kim Andersen) so it's not like he'll be left to his own devices but some lesser riders might
 

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