Johan Bruyneel talks AC/LA

[mr.biggles]

I think Bruyneel's comments are very appropriate and reasonable.

However, to me this is actually a good representation of what he did wrong this year. His problem was that he wasn't able to overcome his friendship with Lance (which is understandable) and reign in a strong personality in favor of a stronger rider. Clearly sitting back and letting them work it out for themselves didn't go well from a PR perspective (I guess that could be argued too, seeing as how Astana also monopolized the media's attention) but from a results standpoint it's hard to see how the race could possibly have worked out any better for Astana.

It's nice to see someone on Lance's "Twitter de France" team behaving like an adult. But in terms of doing his job objectively, Bruyneel needed to lay down the law with Lance a long time ago.

 

[racerralph]

All vitriol aside, how do you suppose JB has been able to attract such talent over the years? If he were such a piece of (fill in the blank), then would the riders in the peleton not know this and steer clear?

Do you think JB being at RadioShack or Shack (whatever they are going to call it) will have one bit of trouble attracting and fielding a team at the very top end of the sport?

Once again, the perception of the folks on this forum and the perception of the folks actually involved in the sport are (seemingly) very different.

All vitriol aside, We will see won't we? BTW Aren't you a "folk(s) in this forum"? I know it's irrelevant to everybody else on these forums. But I called the 1,2 spots for this years Tour, before it began.
Despite all the noise, it wasn't that difficult to do. I'll be taking bets come next spring.
Oh, BTW, even more vitriol pushed aside, Let's be truthful, Lance was the magnet, during Bruyneel's golden days- And he still is. Without Lance, Discovery went Bye-Bye, Bruyneel and his squad, or not. Bruyneel was so astute to Alberto's talent? But he didn't direct Alberto in 2008, to either GT victory, and he completely abandoned him in the TdF 2009. Bruyneel deserves NO credit for the 2009 GC title.(a little vitriol?) Though he gets some for the Team Title(does that make up for my slip?)

 

[Hugh Januss]

I think we would all do well to remember that the Press is a business, and that getting things right, is largely a secondary concern to getting people engaged. Most of the controversy generated around Astana and it's riders during the tour was the product of rampant speculation within the press corp. A very savvy DS like Bruyneel is an expert at letting the press feed on it own speculation and propagating a myth of dissension as a means to an end for gaining a tactical advantage.

Every team has personnel problems and compatibility issues. But the scenario being played out in the Press during the TDF for Astana was not realistic. These riders eat together, lodge together, travel on the team bus together, have team meetings and discuss logistics and tactics at length. There is no place for a dissenting opinion to hide. It will be discussed and resolved, or the team will implode.

There was a tactical faux pas or two by an inexperienced Contador, but largely Team Astana functioned as a well oiled machine and dominated the GC and Team competitions at the TDF. If even a fraction of the controversy that we were fed by the Press during the Tour was accurate, this simply would not have been the result.

Yes, individual riders will make decisions about where and how they want things to go next year, and they will all be in their personal and professional best interests. Any speculation that Contador did not have the teams full support during the TDF is just nonsense, and successful hype and pandering from the media to their own best interests. The number 21 on his jersey speaks louder than most of the media commentary, and there were no situations or behavior on course that called that strategy of team leader into question.

If you want to satisfy yourself on that point, go back and watch your most controversial race moments from the 2009 TDF without the benefit of commentary. It can be like watching it again for the first time.

I'm just wondering, were you not paying attention, or are you choosing to ignore 90% of what was going on?

 

[Anonymous]

All vitriol aside, We will see won't we? BTW Aren't you a "folk(s) in this forum"? I know it's irrelevant to everybody else on these forums. But I called the 1,2 spots for this years Tour, before it began.
Despite all the noise, it wasn't that difficult to do. I'll be taking bets come next spring.
Oh, BTW, even more vitriol pushed aside, Let's be truthful, Lance was the magnet, during Bruyneel's golden days- And he still is. Without Lance, Discovery went Bye-Bye, Bruyneel and his squad, or not. Bruyneel was so astute to Alberto's talent? But he didn't direct Alberto in 2008, to either GT victory, and he completely abandoned him in the TdF 2009. Bruyneel deserves NO credit for the 2009 GC title.(a little vitriol?) Though he gets some for the Team Title(does that make up for my slip?)

Ok. So if your view is exactly as it really is then JB should have one helluva time fielding a competitive team. Who would want to race on a team with such an inept DS?

We will see indeed. My guess is JB's team will be formidable next year.

 

[Mr.DNA]

 

[**Uru**]

Oops--you misspelled Manolo Saiz.

Don't recall Contador getting to any grand tour podium while he was riding for Saiz.

 

[VeloFidelis]

I'm just wondering, were you not paying attention, or are you choosing to ignore 90% of what was going on?

And I'm wondering if you were believing 90% of what you were hearing and not watching what was actually happening on the road.

If you were, then you are in the vast majority, and the Press would have it no other way.

 

[dblueroom]

All vitriol aside, how do you suppose JB has been able to attract such talent over the years? If he were such a piece of (fill in the blank), then would the riders in the peleton not know this and steer clear?

Do you think JB being at RadioShack or Shack (whatever they are going to call it) will have one bit of trouble attracting and fielding a team at the very top end of the sport?

Once again, the perception of the folks on this forum and the perception of the folks actually involved in the sport are (seemingly) very different.

Bruyneel has so much success not because oh Kloden, Leipheimer, or popovich are great talents, but because he has a superstar (either LA or AC) to produce the win. That's his winning formula. Without his win, the team will perhaps still get the team win, but it would be a different story and a different $ payoff. I think a lot of domestique riders choose teams over concerns for compensation, if without glory you might as well ride for money that is exactly what Bruyneel has delivered. Because let's face it he has not produced a culture for teamwork, communication, and collaboration at Astana.

 

[VeloFidelis]

Because let's face it he has not produced a culture for teamwork, communication, and collaboration at Astana.

Try this: First give all the hype and hyperbole, press commentary and Twitter bullsh!t a 50% credibility rating. Half of it is accurate and half is totally made up. You can even pick which half.

Then look, and I mean really look ( all 8 finishers) at the Astana GC and Team standings from the 2009 TDF and let me know if your quote above still makes sense to you.

 

[racerralph]

Don't recall Contador getting to any grand tour podium while he was riding for Saiz.

Awww man c'mon what was the kid 23 years old back then? that was a wisecrack, but not very wisely spoken.

 

[Anonymous]

Awww man c'mon what was the kid 23 years old back then? that was a wisecrack, but not very wisely spoken.

How old is Andy Schleck?

 

[goober]

Try this: First give all the hype and hyperbole, press commentary and Twitter bullsh!t a 50% credibility rating. Half of it is accurate and half is totally made up. You can even pick which half.

Then look, and I mean really look ( all 8 finishers) at the Astana GC and Team standings from the 2009 TDF and let me know if your quote above still makes sense to you.

Problem is many of the members here cannot follow your first step unless the hype contradicts their beliefs.

 

[TRDean]

How old is Andy Schleck?

He is 24 and does not have a grand tour win...what is your point?

 

[VeloFidelis]

Problem is many of the members here cannot follow your first step unless the hype contradicts their beliefs.

Well said!

 

[racerralph]

how old is andy schleck?

24 has he won any grand tours yet???

 

[racerralph]

Sorry about the redundant answer, I was slow on the draw. But, anyway, Andy is a Future Star, without a doubt, and has been brought along carefully after his 2nd place in the Giro when he was only 22! but how did he get dragged in here, anyway?

 

[Hugh Januss]

And I'm wondering if you were believing 90% of what you were hearing and not watching what was actually happening on the road.

If you were, then you are in the vast majority, and the Press would have it no other way.

So Lance's twits were really put out by his press agent?
What happened "on the road" happened because Contador was the strongest rider and not because he got any support whatsoever from LA. You don't need the press to know what was going on. Look at the sourpuss on the podium, and listen to LA's constant snipeing, that is enough.

 

[dblueroom]

Then look, and I mean really look ( all 8 finishers) at the Astana GC and Team standings from the 2009 TDF and let me know if your quote above still makes sense to you.

That simply means they had 8 very strong riders - I had never disputed that. Astana's winning strategy is to have a winning card (AC) that is so out of reach from the pack, and let the rest strong riders to take care of the team win. Well you have the money to pay for these riders, then you can certainly play such bullying yet effective strategy. Astana is clearly not a cohesive and unified team - no exemplary teamwork and collaboration like what team Saxo Bank did for the Schlecks and Andy for Frank. Astana's team result is much like solid ITT performance, each of its own.

 

[TRDean]

Try this: First give all the hype and hyperbole, press commentary and Twitter bullsh!t a 50% credibility rating. Half of it is accurate and half is totally made up. You can even pick which half.

Then look, and I mean really look ( all 8 finishers) at the Astana GC and Team standings from the 2009 TDF and let me know if your quote above still makes sense to you.

I don't think the team was all that close knit at all. Look at the two leaders...look at the way Levi behaved. Heck, look at the way JB was behaving. All point to a disfunctional family. This does not mean they can't, and didn't win the race and team comp., but they were certainly a bitter bunch of guys.

 

[dblueroom]

Sorry about the redundant answer, I was slow on the draw. But, anyway, Andy is a Future Star, without a doubt, and has been brought along carefully after his 2nd place in the Giro when he was only 22! but how did he get dragged in here, anyway?

Yeah i was also lost on that one?
You know what's funny? without the schlecks this year Tour would be a bore (as it was not really exiciting except the rigors in the media). Yet I bet half of people here don't take Andy Schleck seriously.

 

[Anonymous]

He is 24 and does not have a grand tour win...what is your point?

The point is that AC has had much more success under JB than before JB. To say that JB had nothing to do with AC's continuing development is garbage.

Look what a decent director did this year with another gifted 24 year old (Schleck). My guess is AS will win some GT's maybe at an earlier age than AC. The next couple of years will tell the story.

 

[VeloFidelis]

All vitriol aside, how do you suppose JB has been able to attract such talent over the years? If he were such a piece of (fill in the blank), then would the riders in the peleton not know this and steer clear?

Do you think JB being at RadioShack or Shack (whatever they are going to call it) will have one bit of trouble attracting and fielding a team at the very top end of the sport?

Once again, the perception of the folks on this forum and the perception of the folks actually involved in the sport are (seemingly) very different.

I think Bruyneel's credentials are pretty well documented:

2 wins at the Vuelta
2 wins at the Giro
9 wins at the TDF

And multiple wins at: Castilla Y Leon, Pais Vasco, Dauphine Libere, Paris Nice, Tour of California, Tour of Georgia, Tour of Romandie and more.

Not bad for an eleven year career as a DS. Who wouldn't want to ride for him?

 

[**Uru**]

My original point was that Johan should get credit for acquiring a rider with Contador's talent which ultimately lead to 4 grand tour wins in 4 starts. Mr. Tibbs said that I misspelled Saiz--implying that Saiz should get the credit, not JB. To which I said I do not recall Contador winning any grand tours under Saiz. I was not thinking about Contador's age. As this thread is about JB, I was supporting my argument that JB is a good DS. But if we are talking about age, Contador won his first TdF at 24. Andy Schleck came in second at the Giro a couple of years ago at the age of 22 (?).

 

[Publicus]

How old is Andy Schleck?

Not sure. But Andy hasn't lost a year to aneurism (or whatever the disease is that almost killed Contador), nor has his team been kicked out of the Tour for lack of riders (Operation Puerto), and he was the featured rider at his age, whereas Contador wasn't. But I otherwise see your point.

 

[racerralph]

I think Bruyneel's credentials are pretty well documented:

2 wins at the Vuelta
2 wins at the Giro
9 wins at the TDF

And multiple wins at: Castilla Y Leon, Pais Vasco, Dauphine Libere, Paris Nice, Tour of California, Tour of Georgia, Tour of Romandie and more.

Not bad for an eleven year career as a DS. Who wouldn't want to ride for him?

Whoa pardner, let's slow down a little! We're talkin' Heras-1, Salvoldelli-1( and he ain't in love with JB, in case you haven't heard that one) Contador-4 (2, in '08, which were seen over by either Demol or Yates. And one which was presided over this year, by JB in a totally chaotic, very negative manner), and finally 7 by Lance, the Deputy in JB's Kingdom. The Parts(those four men), are bigger than the whole(the myth of The Hog)AC amplified what can be done without any of JB's help. Sorry, but this makes it hard for me to buy the JB= Superstar storyline.