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Johan Bruyneel talks AC/LA

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Aug 4, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
The point is that AC has had much more success under JB than before JB. To say that JB had nothing to do with AC's continuing development is garbage.

Look what a decent director did this year with another gifted 24 year old (Schleck). My guess is AS will win some GT's maybe at an earlier age than AC. The next couple of years will tell the story.

oh boy, AC won his first Tour in 2007 when he was 24, when Rasmussen was expelled out of the race while wearing yellow with some 3 mins lead on AC. I am not going into discredit his first win. AC was then talented climber, accordingly he improved a lot on his ITT and evolving to be a true all rounder today. I am not sure how JB actually personally enhanced AC's TT (maybe lots of work on AC's part?)

Andy Schleck did Giro at 22 in 2007, placed second. The next year rode TDF first time as domestique for Sastre or Frank Schleck. He made a mistake suffering from hunger knock in an early stage and dropped in GC, later did well in mountain stages and placed 12th overall. ITT was also his weakness, losing close to 4 mins in the longer ITT. Andy came back 09 improving his ITT by trailing 1:40 (though shorter course).

I dont know based on this what comparison you want to make about AC and Schleck or attribute their success to their director sportifs, but I think you should have the facts right.
 
**Uru** said:
My original point was that Johan should get credit for acquiring a rider with Contador's talent which ultimately lead to 4 grand tour wins in 4 starts. Mr. Tibbs said that I misspelled Saiz--implying that Saiz should get the credit, not JB. To which I said I do not recall Contador winning any grand tours under Saiz. I was not thinking about Contador's age. As this thread is about JB, I was supporting my argument that JB is a good DS. But if we are talking about age, Contador won his first TdF at 24. Andy Schleck came in second at the Giro a couple of years ago at the age of 22 (?).

Sorry--was just suggesting that Saiz is the one who should get credit for "discovering" him and setting him on the path to greatness. (If a DS can get credit for something like that at all, which I think is a bit doubtful.)

If the whole Liberty Seguras/Astana Wurth mess hadn't gone down in the pre-Tour Puerto fiasco of 2006, who would be the DS riding Contador's handlebars right now?

The only reason it took Contador this long to establish himself as the current GT king was b/c he had the whole cerebral cavernoma thing--which slowed him down for quite some time--and, just as he was regaining his top form before the 2006 Tour: Operation Puerto, which ended his chances that year and made him a GT-ready free agent for Brunyeel to pick up.

So yeah, I think barring those two setbacks (especially the latter), Saiz would now have two or three Tours under his belt instead of Brunyeel. Contador's performances leading up to the 2006 Tour would suggest the same. The Belgian simply saw a great opportunity and took it, but he deserves no credit for grooming Contador.

But sorry if I came off as snarky in my other post; I was just trying to say all the above succinctly and with a little humor (and a LOT of implication, I guess. :eek:).
 
Jun 24, 2009
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Scott SoCal said:
The point is that AC has had much more success under JB than before JB. To say that JB had nothing to do with AC's continuing development is garbage.

Look what a decent director did this year with another gifted 24 year old (Schleck). My guess is AS will win some GT's maybe at an earlier age than AC. The next couple of years will tell the story.
:D Kinda funny, I got caught up in someone else's answer to you. But,maybe you ought to give up on the guessing, and check your facts first. About the only thing that Andy can still do before Alberto is, win all three GT's in one year, at the age of 25. I then hope he would be the undisputed leader of his team at that point(still only 25 years old, as opposed to AC fighting for leadership of his team, at 26).:D
 
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thehog said:
I think it’s less about "damage control" and more about trying to sound like he was "in control" of a situation which he was clearly not. Seeing that Bruyneel is supposed to be the "master tactician" and “DS of the century” this years Tour showed he was neither a tactician nor leader among men. I guess he was worried that he might not be able to sell a sequel to “We might as win”. Perhaps “I’ve lost control again” would be a better title for the follow-up?

+1..................
 
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mr. tibbs said:
Sorry--was just suggesting that Saiz is the one who should get credit for "discovering" him and setting him on the path to greatness. (If a DS can get credit for something like that at all, which I think is a bit doubtful.)

If the whole Liberty Seguras/Astana Wurth mess hadn't gone down in the pre-Tour Puerto fiasco of 2006, who would be the DS riding Contador's handlebars right now?

The only reason it took Contador this long to establish himself as the current GT king was b/c he had the whole cerebral cavernoma thing--which slowed him down for quite some time--and, just as he was regaining his top form before the 2006 Tour: Operation Puerto, which ended his chances that year and made him a GT-ready free agent for Brunyeel to pick up.

So yeah, I think barring those two setbacks (especially the latter), Saiz would now have two or three Tours under his belt instead of Brunyeel. Contador's performances leading up to the 2006 Tour would suggest the same. The Belgian simply saw a great opportunity and took it, but he deserves no credit for grooming Contador.

But sorry if I came off as snarky in my other post; I was just trying to say all the above succinctly and with a little humor (and a LOT of implication, I guess. :eek:).
I thought you said it hilariously, I was going to say it a while ago, but I'll say it now, since you had to explain that short, to the point, burst of yours.;):D
 

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thehog said:
Seeing that Bruyneel is supposed to be the "master tactician" and “DS of the century” this years Tour showed he was neither a tactician nor leader among men.

Why? I didn't see anything wrong with his tactics. I don't understand what you mean by "losing control". Astana dominated the race for the most part.

By the way, Armstrong already played the perfect domestique to Levi in the Giro, so all this talk about him never working for anyone is bull.
 
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TheArbiter said:
Why? I didn't see anything wrong with his tactics. I don't understand what you mean by "losing control". Astana dominated the race for the most part.

By the way, Armstrong already played the perfect domestique to Levi in the Giro, so all this talk about him never working for anyone is bull.

Yea, because Levi being left with just Horner and him taking the rest of the team to drag his ass up the rest of the climb SCREAMS "perfect domestique."
 

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It would have been an absolute stunning story if Armstrong was able to win the Tour on this comeback. It's obvious to see why Bruyneel wanted to be apart of that. Coming third was a great achievement, as he says. It's just unfortunate that Armstrong and Contador didn't gell as personalities. That's life. I don't see why people need to get on their high horse about it.
 
krebs303 said:
I always knew that the race would decide who would be the leader of the team.

"But the situation is clear, Alberto is the leader. He has the jersey number 21. He has won the last three Grand Tours in which he participated. I know there will be many attempts to create controversy, but there is no rivalry in the team."
JB in l'Equipe 4th July 2009
http://www.lequipe.fr/Cyclisme/breves2009/20090703_175327_bruyneel.html
 

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Thoughtforfood said:
Yea, because leaving Levi with Horner and him taking the rest of the team to drag his ass up the rest of the climb SCREAMS "perfect domestique."

I don't know what you're refering to. Armstrong even did the whole water bottles from the car thing. I just can't think of anyone else who would come out of retirement to do that type of thing. He also helped Levi went he blew up on one mountain stage.

It was a pleasure for cycling fans to see this old great back in the Tour this year. Just admit it.
 
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TheArbiter said:
It's just unfortunate that Armstrong and Contador didn't gell as personalities. That's life. I don't see why people need to get on their high horse about it.
It's a good question with a very strange answer.
 
Jul 12, 2009
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hfer07 said:
Bruyneel's statement comes out as a "control damage" to the already known "Astana's Chaotic & dirty Internal battle" in which he holds a lot of responsability, and the obvious preference of LA over Contador, which contradicts previous statements/interviews-even the Monaco conference press.-in another words-He's full of sh!t as LA is-- I don't think he could or would make any difference at all by putting "sweet" words" to repair a "bitter situation"....

This guy is such a pussy, of coarse he will say this after AC won the tour. He is just trying to make himself sound better as a manager, when we all know better.:rolleyes::rolleyes:
 

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**Uru** said:
My original point was that Johan should get credit for acquiring a rider with Contador's talent which ultimately lead to 4 grand tour wins in 4 starts.

Armstrong should take credit too. It was his training program that Contador followed to a T, and it's not hard to see from AC's candace style that he has modelled himself on Armstrong. He even stands up all the time in the same fashion.

Unfortunate that he has now fallen out with his mentor and role model. But that's sometimes how it goes.
 

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When Contador one his first Tour, in the last time trial he asked for Armstrong to sit in the team car behind with Bruyneel. He gave him loads of advice on how to improve his time trialing.
 
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TheArbiter said:
Armstrong should take credit too. It was his training program that Contador followed to a T, and it's not hard to see from AC's candace style that he has modelled himself on Armstrong. He even stands up all the time in the same fashion.

Unfortunate that he has now fallen out with his mentor and role model. But that's sometimes how it goes.


Sorry, I do not think for a second that AC followed any LA training plan, if he had done that he would not have won!!!
 
TheArbiter said:
When Contador one his first Tour, in the last time trial he asked for Armstrong to sit in the team car behind with Bruyneel. He gave him loads of advice on how to improve his time trialing.

Contador's first pro win was an ITT, way back in 2003, and he's won several others since then. I don't think the story that he had to learn to time trial is anything more than a popular myth. Maybe Armstrong was giving him advice, I don't know, but Contador was never too shabby at the discipline.
 
TheArbiter said:
Armstrong should take credit too. It was his training program that Contador followed to a T, and it's not hard to see from AC's candace style that he has modelled himself on Armstrong. He even stands up all the time in the same fashion.

Unfortunate that he has now fallen out with his mentor and role model. But that's sometimes how it goes.

On what basis are you making this claim? I don't recall AC training with Lance, Levi and Horner in the States, but maybe I missed that article.
 
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Publicus said:
On what basis are you making this claim? I don't recall AC training with Lance, Levi and Horner in the States, but maybe I missed that article.

Anyone who has a fast cadence and stands up a lot when they climb is copying LA. He invented all those things. Sheesh.
 
TheArbiter said:
Armstrong should take credit too. It was his training program that Contador followed to a T, and it's not hard to see from AC's candace style that he has modelled himself on Armstrong. He even stands up all the time in the same fashion.

Unfortunate that he has now fallen out with his mentor and role model. But that's sometimes how it goes.

LA no doubt will take the credit. Unfortunately for him, he is not physically capable of taking the top step of the podium this year. Better luck next time, Lance.

I can really see what you mean about that training, though, especially when AC attacks in the mountains, he just leaves people gasping for breath. On the Verbier stage, that astana guy, number 22, I think he was a domestique, had to be shepherded up by Kloden, he was gassed from that. whew, way to follow Lance's lead AC! You'd still be on the bottom of the mountain without him. No one could attack like the guy who mimics LA's attacks. When people see him go, they forget his name and call him 'Lance'!
 
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TheArbiter said:
Armstrong should take credit too. It was his training program that Contador followed to a T, and it's not hard to see from AC's candace style that he has modelled himself on Armstrong. He even stands up all the time in the same fashion.

Unfortunate that he has now fallen out with his mentor and role model. But that's sometimes how it goes.

You are confusing, Armstrong' program is prepared by Ferrari!
 
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dblueroom said:
oh boy, AC won his first Tour in 2007 when he was 24, when Rasmussen was expelled out of the race while wearing yellow with some 3 mins lead on AC. I am not going into discredit his first win. AC was then talented climber, accordingly he improved a lot on his ITT and evolving to be a true all rounder today. I am not sure how JB actually personally enhanced AC's TT (maybe lots of work on AC's part?)

Andy Schleck did Giro at 22 in 2007, placed second. The next year rode TDF first time as domestique for Sastre or Frank Schleck. He made a mistake suffering from hunger knock in an early stage and dropped in GC, later did well in mountain stages and placed 12th overall. ITT was also his weakness, losing close to 4 mins in the longer ITT. Andy came back 09 improving his ITT by trailing 1:40 (though shorter course).

I dont know based on this what comparison you want to make about AC and Schleck or attribute their success to their director sportifs, but I think you should have the facts right.

You are right, sorry for the mistake on my part.

All I'm saying is for some to dump on Bruyneel as someone who is clueless is just silly. He may very well be an A-Hole. But he's not stupid. He knows how to run a team and attract talent. I understand the points made by some that he handled the TdF this year poorly. I agree, but don't then say the guy has just been the beneficiary of LA, AC and a bunch of good luck (not attributing this to you but to some of the earlier posts).

Finally I was just trying to draw a comparison between AC and AS and their success at such an early age. They are responsible for their own abilities, no doubt. I just don't think it is entirely coincidental that they both have pretty savvy DS's.
 
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TheArbiter said:
Armstrong should take credit too. It was his training program that Contador followed to a T, and it's not hard to see from AC's candace style that he has modelled himself on Armstrong. He even stands up all the time in the same fashion.

Unfortunate that he has now fallen out with his mentor and role model. But that's sometimes how it goes.

:eek: The Arbiter has hijacked this thread to Comedy Central!!!!:D:D
 
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