Join the dots? How dirty is Lotto?

[roundabout]

Let's see the long list of injuries that took years to recover from then.

Edit: I see news about his hernia in January 2008. He was operated but started the season as planned.

Other problems?

Edit: fell in the Dauphine on the last stage the same year but returned in Eneco

 

[hrotha]

The "first real season" thing could fly when we were talking about his performance at the Ardennes, but how come he didn't show anything in any mountain stage prior to the Tour this very year? Also, at the Vuelta last year he looked quite good to me, and yet he was nowhere in the mountains (with a 30th at Pal being an absolute highlight and a bit of an anomaly).

 

[El Pistolero]

The "first real season" thing could fly when we were talking about his performance at the Ardennes, but how come he didn't show anything in any mountain stage prior to the Tour this very year? Also, at the Vuelta last year he looked quite good to me, and yet he was nowhere in the mountains (with a 30th at Pal being an absolute highlight and a bit of an anomaly).

He was a bottle carrier in the Vuelta and he had to leave it because of his bad knee.

 

[El Pistolero]

Let's see the long list of injuries that took years to recover from then.

Edit: I see news about his hernia in January 2008. He was operated but started the season as planned.

Other problems?

His heavy crash in a descend of the Dauphiné Liberé in 2007(where he was with Samuel Sanchez)

 

[Lanark]

My examples aren't poor. You just showed you know nothing about his career. Look at his long list of injuries. This is his first real season without any injuries. Let's see Andy Schleck riding up Zoncolan with a hernia

Oh yes, the infamous four season stretch of injuries. Could you describe for example what injuries he had in his 2009 Giro? He finished 6th in Frankfurt right before this race, so his shape couldn't be bad, yet his mountain performance was barely above poor. Why?

Vanendert was also a domestique in every race he started up to this point. What are you mumbling about really? It's only because VDB2 crashed out that he had a chance to ride for him self. Are you expecting him to sprint up mountains after getting water bottles all day for his team mates? Well, I guess you're right after all, he's no Andy

Wait, he wasn't a domestique? He didn't do any work for Gilbert, Greipel and VDB the first two weeks? Oh right, he did. But trust me, being a domestique has very little to do with it. If you can ride 5.9 w/kg on HC mountain after two weeks of Tour, you're one of the best domestiques in the world, capable of reducing every group of favorites to 5 or so guys. Such an excelent climber would have been noticed a lot sooner, either as a supremely good domestique, or one of the many races he didn't have a team leader, with an effort of his own.

I bet you'll be totally surprised if Boonen won the RVV next year after his crappy year so far Because injuries or illness obviously don't affect the way you race according to you.

What are you talking about? Boonen finished 4th or something in the Ronde this year, and won it two times. Why would it be surprising if he won next year? Now if Gerben Löwik won next year's Ronde van Vlaanderen, I would be surprised, despite the fact that he has had every injury imaginable.

 

[roundabout]

His heavy crash in a descend of the Dauphiné Liberé in 2007(where he was with Samuel Sanchez)

Noted, and that was 2008.

what happened in 2009 and 2010?

 

[El Pistolero]

Noted, and that was 2008.

what happened in 2009 and 2010?

His knee. He had to leave the Vuelta because of it last year.

He crashed in the Ruta del Sol in 2009 on his knee.

 

[hrotha]

He was a bottle carrier in the Vuelta and he had to leave it because of his bad knee.

His bad knee didn't prevent him from doing some good stages, but apparently it made it impossible for him to prove how much of a climber he is. Ok, that was still just half of my post. What about 2011?

 

[El Pistolero]

The "first real season" thing could fly when we were talking about his performance at the Ardennes, but how come he didn't show anything in any mountain stage prior to the Tour this very year? Also, at the Vuelta last year he looked quite good to me, and yet he was nowhere in the mountains (with a 30th at Pal being an absolute highlight and a bit of an anomaly).

He had to leave that Vuelta because of his knee. So obviously he wasn't in super shape.

 

[roundabout]

His knee. He had to leave the Vuelta because of it last year.

Frank Schleck finished 5th in the Tour with a bad knee....

Looking at 2010 it does seem that he had pretty serious health problems before the Vuelta.

Did he crash in the Ruta del Sol?

And in 2009?

Edit: I see your edit, that explains 2010. Still what about 2009?

 

[El Pistolero]

His bad knee didn't prevent him from doing some good stages, but apparently it made it impossible for him to prove how much of a climber he is. Ok, that was still just half of my post. What about 2011?

Nothing in 2011. His first year without any injuries.

 

[El Pistolero]

Frank Schleck finished 5th in the Tour with a bad knee....

Looking at 2010 it does seem that he had pretty serious health problems before the Vuelta.

Did he crash in the Ruta del Sol?

And in 2009?

Uhh, Vanendert's knee was ****ed up, can't even compare that to Frank. They were fearing for his career and they even diagnosed it wrong at first making him lose even more of his season.

 

[roundabout]

Uhh, Vanendert's knee was ****ed up, can't even compare that to Frank. They were fearing for his career and they even diagnosed it wrong at first making him lose even more of his season.

I'm just messing with you.

But looking at 2009 he rode a pretty full schedule and there don't seem to be any gaps that might be explained by health issues.

 

[hrotha]

Nothing in 2011. His first year without any injuries.

Sigh. Try to keep up. The question was, why didn't he perform in the mountains even in 2011 until the other day? If he's such a climber and he was in decent form, why did he come 88th and 117th (barely within the time limit) in the two real mountain stages at the Dauphiné? Why was he 128th on Arrate in the Tour of the Basque Country?

 

[El Pistolero]

Frank Schleck finished 5th in the Tour with a bad knee....

Looking at 2010 it does seem that he had pretty serious health problems before the Vuelta.

Did he crash in the Ruta del Sol?

And in 2009?

Edit: I see your edit, that explains 2010. Still what about 2009?

After Hernia problems at the start of the season in 2008 Jelle Vanendert crashed in the Dauphiné Liberé in the descend of the Col du Cucheron and broke his pelvis. He made his come back in September of 2008 at the Vuelta a Espana. He finished 101th in the GC in his first GT. In 2009 Jelle Vanendert rode his first season with Omega-Pharma-Lotto, but because of some small injuries he couldn't reach a high peak during the whole season. In the Ruta del Sol, Jelle Vanendert crashed badly for the second time in his still young career. He had a heavy knee injury: he had no cartilage anymore on the outside of his knee. Because they didn't make the right diagnose right away, he was out for a large part of the season. After a long re-validation he started in the VuelNa herniaproblemen in het begin van het seizoen kwam Vanendert in juni tijdens de Dauphiné Libéré zwaar ten val in de afdaling van de Col du Cucheron en liep hij een bekkenbreuk op. Pas in september, in de Vuelta, kan hij zijn rentree maken. In zijn eerste grote ronde behaalt hij een 101ste plaats.
In 2009 reed Vanendert zijn eerste seizoen bij Omega Pharma-Lotto, maar door enkele kleinere blessures kon hij in het hele seizoen geen hoog vormpeil bereiken.
In de Ruta del Sol kwam Vanendert voor de tweede keer in zijn nog jonge carriere zwaar ten val. Hij blesseerde zich hier zwaar een de knie: Aan de buitenkant van de knie was er geen kraakbeen meer. Omdat niet dadelijk de juiste diagnose gesteld werd, viel het grootste deel van zijn seizoen in het water. Na een lange revalidatie startte hij in de Vuelta, maar daar moest hij met pijn in zijn knie opgeven. Hij zag zijn plannen om tijdens het WK te presteren in het water vallen.ta, but he had to give up because of heavy pain in his knee. He say his plans to perform well at the WC slip away.

 

[El Pistolero]

Frank Schleck finished 5th in the Tour with a bad knee....

Looking at 2010 it does seem that he had pretty serious health problems before the Vuelta.

Did he crash in the Ruta del Sol?

And in 2009?

Edit: I see your edit, that explains 2010. Still what about 2009?

After Hernia problems at the start of the season in 2008 Jelle Vanendert crashed in the Dauphiné Liberé in the descend of the Col du Cucheron and broke his pelvis. He made his come back in September of 2008 at the Vuelta a Espana. He finished 101th in the GC in his first GT. In 2009 Jelle Vanendert rode his first season with Omega-Pharma-Lotto, but because of some small injuries he couldn't reach a high peak during the whole season. In the Ruta del Sol in 2010, Jelle Vanendert crashed badly for the second time in his still young career. He had a heavy knee injury: he had no cartilage anymore on the outside of his knee. Because they didn't make the right diagnose right away, he was out for a large part of the season. After a long re-validation he started in the Vuelta, but he had to give up because of a heavy pain in his knee. He saw his plans to perform well at the WC slip away.

That's his career in a nutshell really.

 

[Lanark]

Let me ask another question, I'm not being facetious, but I'm genuinly interested, so this is not just directed at his only defender: when was the last time that somebody (with at least a couple of pro years under his belt) won a Tour mountain stage, not by being in a breakaway, but by riding away at the last climb from the group of GC-favorites, who had a worse climbing pedigree than Vanendert had before this year?

I honestly can't think of a single example. I would say you would have to go at least back to the 90's, possibly the 80's.

 

[El Pistolero]

Sigh. Try to keep up. The question was, why didn't he perform in the mountains even in 2011 until the other day? If he's such a climber and he was in decent form, why did he come 88th and 117th (barely within the time limit) in the two real mountain stages at the Dauphiné? Why was he 128th on Arrate in the Tour of the Basque Country?

Ah, so you're saying he only started doping in the Tour

He was a domestique in the Dauphiné, he worked for VDB2 and that's it. He was actually selected for the Tour because of his performance at the Dauphiné.

Bettini became a super star when Bartoli had a nasty injury. Vanendert broke through after VDB2's injury.

Why did Andy Schleck suck in the Basque country? Come with some real arguments please.

 

[roundabout]

Some small injuries sounds pretty vague.

 

[El Pistolero]

Some small injuries sounds pretty vague.

It's all I could find. But his career has been marred with bad injuries, you can't deny that. And let's be honest, it takes a long time to recover from these injuries. Just look at Boonen. You can't be super good in your first race after not having raced for a long time.

 

[hrotha]

Ah, so you're saying he only started doping in the Tour

He was a domestique in the Dauphiné, he worked for VDB2 and that's it. He was actually selected for the Tour because of his performance at the Dauphiné.

Bettini became a super star when Bartoli had a nasty injury. Vanendert broke through after VDB2's injury.

Why did Andy Schleck suck in the Basque country? Come with some real arguments please.

You don't start doping at the Tour, but if your program is geared towards the Tour, chances are you won't be great at the Dauphiné. That's what makes the Dauphiné so weird, with second-tier riders testing the programs their leaders are going to use in July and what not.

edit: You keep editing your posts while I'm replying. It's frustrating.
Bettini had shown lots of talent in the hills before. Vanendert hadn't shown it in the mountains.
Andy sucked in the Basque Country probably because he races with an eye permanently on his heart rate monitor, but you'll notice even then he showed he can climb. He was 12th in the GC. Furthermore, I'm not saying Andy doesn't dope.

 

[El Pistolero]

You don't start doping at the Tour, but if your program is geared towards the Tour, chances are you won't be great at the Dauphiné. That's what makes the Dauphiné so weird, with second-tier riders testing the programs their leaders are going to use in July and what not.

edit: You keep editing your posts while I'm replying. It's frustrating.
Bettini had shown lots of talent in the hills before. Vanendert hadn't shown it in the mountains.
Andy sucked in the Basque Country probably because he races with an eye permanently on his heart rate monitor, but you'll notice even then he showed he can climb. He was 12th in the GC. Furthermore, I'm not saying Andy doesn't dope.

Vanendert must have done something right if he was chosen for the Tour based on his Dauphiné. He was a domestique and they don't get TV time very often, so I'm not going to act like I know what he did there, but it has to be something or he wouldn't get picked in the Tour team.

You'll just have to accept this guy is a climbing talent even if he's doped. Cause if you believe Andy is doped as well, then they're fighting with equal weapons, no? It all comes down to talent then

And let's be honest here. The favorites were having a stalemate on Plateau de Beille for pretty much the entire climb. Attacking for 2 seconds and then standing still for a minute doesn't count.

I don't believe for once Vanendert is an enhanced donkey. Enhanced I can accept, but a donkey? Never. He has talent and I believe he's fighting with equal weapons. Besides how many hilly classics guys these days can't climb? Gilbert and Kolobnev? Who else?

And don't worry, another big talent is coming: his brother.

 

[hrotha]

You'll just have to accept this guy is a climbing talent even if he's doped. Cause if you believe Andy is doped as well, then they're fighting with equal weapons, no? It all comes down to talent then

No, I don't have to accept it, that's what this discussion is about. I can see the current Vanendert can climb. I don't have to agree he's a natural climber or that he'd climb with the best in a clean peloton. And no, not all programs are the same and just because Andy dopes as well that doesn't mean he's getting the same boost. This is obvious and you know it very well.

And let's be honest here. The favorites were having a stalemate on Plateau de Beille for pretty much the entire climb. Attacking for 2 seconds and then standing still for a minute doesn't count.

He still responded to several attacks then made a move of his own and defended his lead on Samuel Sánchez, who was 4th in the GC last year. And in Luz Ardiden he did the whole climb with him. Let's be honest here, that counts.

I don't believe for once Vanendert is an enhanced donkey. Enhanced I can accept, but a donkey? Never. He has talent and I believe he's fighting with equal weapons. Besides how many hilly classics guys these days can't climb? Gilbert and Kolobnev? Who else?

You can never accept it? What if it turned out to be the truth? I see it's pointless to discuss this with you. Anyway, Martens, Hermans, Albasini, Gerrans, Leukemans, Van Avermaet, Bole or Marcato come to mind.

 

[El Pistolero]

No, I don't have to accept it, that's what this discussion is about. I can see the current Vanendert can climb. I don't have to agree he's a natural climber or that he'd climb with the best in a clean peloton. And no, not all programs are the same and just because Andy dopes as well that doesn't mean he's getting the same boost. This is obvious and you know it very well.


He still responded to several attacks then made a move of his own and defended his lead on Samuel Sánchez, who was 4th in the GC last year. And in Luz Ardiden he did the whole climb with him. Let's be honest here, that counts.

You can never accept it? What if it turned out to be the truth? I see it's pointless to discuss this with you. Anyway, Martens, Hermans, Albasini, Gerrans, Leukemans, Van Avermaet, Bole or Marcato come to mind.

None of them can win a big classic though. Those are all guys that you'd put in a breakaway that's never going to make it.

And yeah Jelle Vanendert has a better doping program than Andy Schleck and Contador I wonder how he pays that one.

You base your self on nothing but speculation. I'll keep it with the facts.

Though I find it hilarious how you find Rebellin a natural climber and not Vanendert.
You might as well argue Contador is an enhanced donkey with your reasoning.

 

[hrotha]

None of them can win a big classic though. Those are all guys that you'd put in a breakaway that's never going to make it.

Keep moving the goalposts, will ya.

And yeah Jelle Vanendert has a better doping program than Andy Schleck and Contador I wonder how he pays that one.

Not necessarily better. Riskier, maybe. How could Sella afford a better doping program than Contador?