Jonas Vingegaard: Godzilla, the King of Monsters

[ElDesordenado]

Saying Jonas is not explosive is simply ridiculous.

Well, look at this year so far + last year. He can't follow Pogacar's initial bursts of speed, but reels him in over the long haul. That's been a consistent pattern. The longer and more exhausting mountain stages, the better for Vingegaard. He acknowledges that himself so nothing ridiculous about that.

 

[fenns]

Eh, 22 Granon & Hautacam?

i'll give you Granon but not Hautacam - you don't bonk and still take minutes out of the field bar one

 

[fenns]

Well, look at this year so far + last year. He can't follow Pogacar's initial bursts of speed, but reels him in over the long haul. That's been a consistent pattern. The longer and more exhausting mountain stages, the better for Vingegaard. He acknowledges that himself so nothing ridiculous about that.

without a summit at or near the finish you're not going to see JV trying to gain time.

come Monday I expect JV to be leading by 2 minutes - maybe more

 

[ElDesordenado]

without a summit at or near the finish you're not going to see JV trying to gain time.

come Monday I expect JV to be leading by 2 minutes - maybe more

I think 2+ minutes is a lot by Monday already, but other than that, I'm with you on this one. Starting tomorrow, we'll see Vingegaard terrain - this is where the race really begins for him (which is also what he himself and Visma have said all along). I think stage 19 + the final TT will be the most crucial, but the stages Saturday and Sunday this week could be get great options for him to take the jersey.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Well okay, what do you want to say... you're free to post it here

Let's start with Netserk's picture from the OP. Fool me once... you know how it goes.

I believe doping is a necessity to become really succesful in this sport (probably in many sports), and I can fully understand why some riders decide to go all in on realising their dreams and potential (either on their own initiatives or due to pressure from people around them). To paraphrase Michael Rasmussen: If you've already decided to break the rules, you're only cheating yourself by not going the extra mile. And as I said during a presentation at school 16-ish years ago, I have no reason to believe I couldn't get persuaded, if I had been a pro rider.

However for me as a fan, there's still a line that can be crossed, which happens whenever a rider and/or team are no longer just doing the bare minimum or slightly more and moves into the top bracket of doping users (I am a hypocrite though, cause it doesn't always mean I completely stop supporting riders or teams. Otherwise I wouldn't have continued to be a Samu or Martin Fourcade fan after they started to do ridiculous things, for instance).

Denmark has now had tree riders who have had the esteemed honour of being able to win the biggest race and thus being crowned the king of the cycling world. One of them was a bit unlucky to be denied the chance to actually win the Tour, while another was fortunate enough to stay around for years before admitting guilt, although there had been evidence circulating for some time at that point.

Now we have a third guy at the very top level of GC riders. Vingegaard got his breakthrough at an earlier age than the other two and is in some ways both more believable and less believable than them. In Riis' case he rode for Gewiss Ballan and Telekom who were among the most ridiculous teams at the time. This wasn't always the case for Rasmussen at Rabobank, but it's definitely what's happening with Vingegaard and Visma nowadays. I therefore can't root for them. I can't deny that I've held some grudge against the team ever since the Rasmussen debacle, but it hasn't always kept me from liking their riders.

Another reason for my dislike has nothing to do with Vingegaard himself, but the Danish media and other Danish fans' reaction to him. It's of course very understandable that the media builds up a hype for an athlete, but I wish they would tone it down a notch and be more critical of him and his team. We know they will throw themselves at him if/when he ever falls from grace, but that fall could be way smaller if they did their job differently.

 

[Ripper]

it's been obvious from the start JV is in the same shape as 22/23. pogacar is miles better than the rest of the field and you don't climb back up to him without being in top shape. over the weekend i expect him to take at least a couple of minutes out of TP

whatever happened to him back in april has clearly not hindered his chances at all

We don't have long to wait now do we.

TaPoPo has consistently said he's been training for the long climbs, and those are coming now, so we get to see how he fares and whether the Giro actually is affecting his legs. And if JoViguu is riding into form and in stellar shape, then this is his natural terrain and he should blow everyone away.

Good times the wait!

 

[Froome]

Let's start with Netserk's picture from the OP. Fool me once... you know how it goes.

I believe doping is a necessity to become really succesful in this sport (probably in many sports), and I can fully understand why some riders decide to go all in on realising their dreams and potential (either on their own initiatives or due to pressure from people around them). To paraphrase Michael Rasmussen: If you've already decided to break the rules, you're only cheating yourself by not going the extra mile. And as I said during a presentation at school 16-ish years ago, I have no reason to believe I couldn't get persuaded, if I had been a pro rider.

However for me as a fan, there's still a line that can be crossed, which happens whenever a rider and/or team are no longer just doing the bare minimum or slightly more and moves into the top bracket of doping users (I am a hypocrite though, cause it doesn't always mean I completely stop supporting riders or teams. Otherwise I wouldn't have continued to be a Samu or Martin Fourcade fan after they started to do ridiculous things, for instance).

Denmark has now had tree riders who have had the esteemed honour of being able to win the biggest race and thus being crowned the king of the cycling world. One of them was a bit unlucky to be denied the chance to actually win the Tour, while another was fortunate enough to stay around for years before admitting guilt, although there had been evidence circulating for some time at that point.

Now we have a third guy at the very top level of GC riders. Vingegaard got his breakthrough at an earlier age than the other two and is in some ways both more believable and less believable than them. In Riis' case he rode for Gewiss Ballan and Telekom who were among the most ridiculous teams at the time. This wasn't always the case for Rasmussen at Rabobank, but it's definitely what's happening with Vingegaard and Visma nowadays. I therefore can't root for them. I can't deny that I've held some grudge against the team ever since the Rasmussen debacle, but it hasn't always kept me from liking their riders.

Another reason for my dislike has nothing to do with Vingegaard himself, but the Danish media and other Danish fans' reaction to him. It's of course very understandable that the media builds up a hype for an athlete, but I wish they would tone it down a notch and be more critical of him and his team. We know they will throw themselves at him if/when he ever falls from grace, but that fall could be way smaller if they did their job differently.

It doesn't make sense when you like Pogacar. The guy is on a programme of doping with toxic people like Gianetti and Matxin, the guys of Ricardo Ricco. I think it's even worse.

In terms of danish media, i don't know, but i know very well who has at the moment a machine of propaganda doing videos of him giving bottles to kids with a camera behind to put on Insta. Everything is being done, to make him have a good image to the cycling community, to no being asked difficult questions.

You have the right to not like him, but you are not coeherent.

Besides that, you are using the fact of being able to change his name of the thread, to constantly mock and troll Vingegaard and his fans. It wasn't to make people laugh, it was to troll and bait his fans and Vingegaard, but whatever. Have fun on put ridiculous names like "mountain sprinter" in the name of the thread, it's not fun.

It's only thread where someone is always changing the name to troll and especially mock the rider.

It's not the right behavior, what you have been doing.

 

[snipeheem]

It doesn't make sense when you like Pogacar. The guy is on a programme of doping with toxic people like Gianetti and Matxin, the guys of Ricardo Ricco. I think it's even worse.

In terms of danish media, i don't know, but i know very well who has at the moment a machine of propaganda doing videos of him giving bottles to kids with a camera behind to put on Insta. Everything is being done, to make him have a good image to the cycling community, to no being asked difficult questions.

You have the right to not like him, but you are not coeherent.

Besides that, you are using the fact of being able to change his name of the thread, to constantly mock and troll Vingegaard and his fans. It wasn't to make people laugh, it was to troll and bait his fans and Vingegaard, but whatever. Have fun on put supid names like "mountain sprinter" in the name of the thread.

It's only thread where someone is always changing the name to troll and especially mock the rider.

It's not the right behavior, what you have been doing.

I remember when u call pogacar „Slovenian pozzato” great behavior by you

 

[Froome]

I remember when u call pogacar „Slovenian pozzato” great behavior by you

I never changed the thread of Pogacar. It has nothing to do with that, but guess what, i deserved being banned for that.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

It doesn't make sense when you like Pogacar. The guy is on a programme of doping with toxic people like Gianetti and Matxin, the guys of Ricardo Ricco. I think it's even worse.

In terms of danish media, i don't know, but i know very well who has at the moment a machine of propaganda doing videos of him giving bottles to kids with a camera behind to put on Insta. Everything is being done, to make him have a good image to the cycling community, to no being asked difficult questions.

You have the right to not like him, but you are not coeherent.

Besides that, you are using the fact of being able to change his name of the thread, to constantly mock and troll Vingegaard and his fans. It wasn't to make people laugh, it was to troll and bait his fans and Vingegaard, but whatever. Have fun on put ridiculous names like "mountain sprinter" in the name of the thread, it's not fun.

It's only thread where someone is always changing the name to troll and especially mock the rider.

It's not the right behavior, what you have been doing.

If you've come to believe, I like Pogačar, I must have done something wrong, or perhaps right since I've also been accused of hating him before.

Also I tend to stay away from the propaganda you're talking about, so it has no effect on me.

The mountain sprinter thing is just a play on what has been an ongoing meme on this forum for years now. I'm not trying to insult anyone. If anything it's praising Vingegaard, who I've also in the past has said packed a decent sprint, but against Pogačar it has not been good enough in a H2H before.

 

[Ripper]

I never changed the thread of Pogacar. It has nothing to do with that, but guess what, i deserved being banned for that.

You were banned for calling him Slovenian Pozzato???

 

[ElDesordenado]

Another reason for my dislike has nothing to do with Vingegaard himself, but the Danish media and other Danish fans' reaction to him. It's of course very understandable that the media builds up a hype for an athlete, but I wish they would tone it down a notch and be more critical of him and his team. We know they will throw themselves at him if/when he ever falls from grace, but that fall could be way smaller if they did their job differently.

Spot on. It's shocking how Danish media and spectators buy into the Visma narrative with practically no critical questions. It makes it unbearable at times to watch the Danish TV2 coverage of the TdF.

That said, I think it's difficult for journalists to cover the clinic stuff because in the end, there's a lot we can suspect - and often with good reason - but very little we can prove. And as a journalist you rely on facts and the ability to verify information. With no one willing to speak from within the cycling community, journalists are left with not that many options, and when covering sports you're also dependant on maintaining a good relationship with the teams.

I think a solution might be to have an independent newsroom solely dedicated to the doping topic - one that operates separately from the day to day sports coverage. There was a great production done by Danish Radio back in the day, 'Tavshedens Pris', where journalists looked through the garbage cans at team hotels at the Vuelta in the late 90s and found syringes, EPO etc, but since then we haven't seen much great Danish journalism on doping in cycling.

 

[Froome]

You were banned for calling him Slovenian Pozzato???

I think i was, but i'm not 100% sure, but i understand, because probably saying something like that, i raged some people, so it was deserved.

 

[snipeheem]

You were banned for calling him Slovenian Pozzato???

I was banned last time because i call him unreal and it was in some funny way , the mods here are No jokes

 

[Martinstranger]

Another reason for my dislike has nothing to do with Vingegaard himself, but the Danish media and other Danish fans' reaction to him. It's of course very understandable that the media builds up a hype for an athlete, but I wish they would tone it down a notch and be more critical of him and his team. We know they will throw themselves at him if/when he ever falls from grace, but that fall could be way smaller if they did their job differently.

If you have any proof of something, i'm sure Danish journalists are very interested. Several Danish journalist have participated in doping revelations in different sports over the years.
But as long as there is no proof, then the journalist need to sell papers and to do that, they hype their fellow countrymen. I too think it is too much, but I also accept their role.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

Spot on. It's shocking how Danish media and spectators buy into the Visma narrative with practically no critical questions. It makes it unbearable at times to watch the Danish TV2 coverage of the TdF.

That said, I think it's difficult for journalists to cover the clinic stuff because in the end, there's a lot we can suspect - and often with good reason - but very little we can prove. And as a journalist you rely on facts and the ability to verify information. With no one willing to speak from within the cycling community, journalists are left with not that many options, and when covering sports you're also dependant on maintaining a good relationship with the teams.

I think a solution might be to have an independent newsroom solely dedicated to the doping topic - one that operates separately from the day to day sports coverage. There was a great production done by Danish Radio back in the day, 'Tavshedens Pris', where journalists looked through the garbage cans at team hotels at the Vuelta in the late 90s and found syringes, EPO etc, but since then we haven't seen much great Danish journalism on doping in cycling.

I'm also bit biased against the TV2 coverage due to them pushing CSC onto the viewers back in the day and their change from being pro Schlecks and anti Contador to being the opposite when they switched teams.

Tavshedens Pris and Danskerlægen were indeed great stuff.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

If you have any proof of something, i'm sure Danish journalists are very interested. Several Danish journalist have participated in doping revelations in different sports over the years.
But as long as there is no proof, then the journalist need to sell papers and to do that, they hype their fellow countrymen. I too think it is too much, but I also accept their role.

Well I'm not in a position where I can or should be hunting those scoops. Does it seem like the Danish media is really occupied with doing it at the moment? I definitely don't think so.

However it isn't only the Danish media that seem to be more interested in the feel good stories. With social media being around, the teams are also in positions now where they can spread their own narratives and no longer need the old media to do it for them, which mean the media are sometimes afraid of getting blacklisted by the teams.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Get ready for tomorrow, guys

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YUY9Y9RFiHY&pp=ygUOWW91IHNleHkgdGhpbmc%3D

 

[Netserk]

Also I tend to stay away from the propaganda you're talking about, so it has no effect on me.

You can do the same for these, no?

Of course, you'd have to be able to mentally mute Jesper Worre whenever he speaks about Vingegaard, but I think both Bastian Emil Goldschmidt and Thomas Bay are fairly neutral.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

You can do the same for these, no?

Of course, you'd have to be able to mentally mute Jesper Worre whenever he speaks about Vingegaard, but I think both Bastian Emil Goldschmidt and Thomas Bay are fairly neutral.

I haven't seen a lot of videos of Vingegaard handing out bottles either. Whether that is because they don't exist, I can't say for sure, but it probably is.

At the moment I don't have ES, and even when I had I mostly watched the TV2 coverage during the Tour anyway. Bastian Emil might be neutral, but I definitely wouldn't expect him to be highly critical of anyone either.

 

[Netserk]

I haven't seen a lot of videos of Vingegaard handing out bottles either. Whether that is because they don't exist, I can't say for sure, but it probably is.

At the moment I don't have ES, and even when I had I mostly watched the TV2 coverage during the Tour anyway. Bastian Emil might be neutral, but I definitely wouldn't expect him to be highly critical of anyone either.

I don't mean ignoring so-me propaganda, but the media bias that bothers you.

Another reason for my dislike has nothing to do with Vingegaard himself, but the Danish media and other Danish fans' reaction to him. It's of course very understandable that the media builds up a hype for an athlete, but I wish they would tone it down a notch and be more critical of him and his team. We know they will throw themselves at him if/when he ever falls from grace, but that fall could be way smaller if they did their job differently.

I hardly notice it, as the cycling coverage in Danish that I'm exposed to is mostly Eurosport. And there it's only really Worre that is too much for me.

 

[Samu Cuenca]

I don't mean ignoring so-me propaganda, but the media bias that bothers you.

I hardly notice it, as the cycling coverage in Danish that I'm exposed to is mostly Eurosport. And there it's only really Worre that is too much for me.

As I said it's just as much the lack of critical questions as it's the high praise that bothers me.

 

[Savant12]

Get ready for tomorrow, guys

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=YUY9Y9RFiHY&pp=ygUOWW91IHNleHkgdGhpbmc%3D

Vingo on a bike is not sexy but I do believe in miracles. Vingo or Lazarus, as he might be known, is very much alive and will be kicking all of the GC hopefuls.

 

[CleanCiclismo]

Interesting information about Jonas and his form from the interview with Marko Džalo (Ineos and Geraint Thomas masseuse):
His injury may not even have been as serious as initially reported after the Tour of the Basque Country. For two months, all was quiet. Now we see why. Jonas is quite fit, he is in good shape. I've heard from sources within the team that the training numbers show that he's in even better shape than last year.

 

[Bolder]

Interesting information about Jonas and his form from the interview with Marko Džalo (Ineos and Geraint Thomas masseuse):
His injury may not even have been as serious as initially reported after the Tour of the Basque Country. For two months, all was quiet. Now we see why. Jonas is quite fit, he is in good shape. I've heard from sources within the team that the training numbers show that he's in even better shape than last year.

Because a guy who rub oils into riders' legs is a reliable source?