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Jonas Vingegaard Rasmussen, the new alpha mutant

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Cookster15

Cookster15

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Rob5091 said:
Ma Vingegaard knows, it's all down to preparation (no time for back flips in the pool!) Vingegaard's coach Tim Heemskerk spills the beans -
https://cyclinguptodate.com/cycling...jonas-vingegaards-development-in-recent-years
"We found out that he can still achieve peak powers during training even at the end of matches [races I assume he means]. And even in a three-week competition. That sets him apart from others. It shows almost no decay. In addition, it can also do this at high altitudes and in the heat," he analyses. "And the fact that he succeeds has everything to do with preparation. With long altitude training periods. Jonas works hard for that. These internships abroad provided an extra step. He is now someone who adapts extremely quickly to different circumstances. Those growth margins are becoming smaller, but there is always room for improvement."
(Ok, even with stuffing yourself with 120 g carbs per hour plus ketones plus ice baths etc etc is it really possible, without "rocket fuel", to be just as good on stage 21 as on stage 1?)
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:rolleyes: I say these stories are easily debunked. With all this incredible ability they still need to explain Vingegaard’s lack of results before joining Jumbo? If he was as genetically talented as all these claims make out I would expect he have achieved far more by the age of 24 (2021 TdF). I also think he would never have ridden as Roglic’s domestique.

The spin seems to be a) blend the world’s most incredible ever aerobic engine with b) what we were told about Armstrong (training and attention to details) and c) what Sky became infamous for (marginal gains)?

I still don’t buy it and neither do I enjoy it.
 
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Froome

Froome

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Cookster15 said:
:rolleyes: I say these stories are easily debunked. With all this incredible ability they still need to explain Vingegaard’s lack of results before joining Jumbo? If he was as genetically talented as all these claims make out I would expect he have achieved far more by the age of 24 (2021 TdF). I also think he would never have ridden as Roglic’s domestique.

The spin seems to be a) blend the world’s most incredible ever aerobic engine with b) what we were told about Armstrong (training and attention to details) and c) what Sky became infamous for (marginal gains)?

I still don’t buy it and neither do I enjoy it.
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Broken femur in 2017.
He worked in a fish factory until 2018, he wasn't "full time" in cycling.
He was in a modest team from denmark until 2018.

They were not the ideal conditions for improving year by year and showing some results. He started to improve and get some results when Visma signed him in 2019.

They discover him after he beat the climbing record of col de rates on strava. Then, they did some physiological tests that convinced Visma.


Still, some indications by him before he signed for Visma, like in 2016 when he was more faster than Bernal in the mountain ITT, at the sibium cycling tour.

He also won the mountain ITT in the 2018 Giro ciclistico della valle d'aosta mont blanc.


Some riders also mature more later than others.


He is genetically talented like the others best riders. Doping helps but it doesn't make miracles, because average riders like izagirre or lutsenko can take all the doping they want, but they still will not win the Tour.
 
Samu Cuenca

Samu Cuenca

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Froome said:
Broken femur in 2017.
He worked in a fish factory until 2018, he wasn't "full time" in cycling.
He was in a modest team from denmark until 2018.

They were not the ideal conditions for improving year by year and showing some results. He started to improve and get some results when Visma signed him in 2019.

They discover him after he beat the climbing record of col de rates on strava. Then, they did some physiological tests that convinced Visma.


Still, some indications by him before he signed for Visma, like in 2016 when he was more faster than Bernal in the mountain ITT, at the sibium cycling tour.

He also won the mountain ITT in the 2018 Giro ciclistico della valle d'aosta mont blanc.


Some riders also mature more later than others.


He is genetically talented like the others best riders. Doping helps but it doesn't make miracles, because average riders like izagirre or lutsenko can take all the doping they want, but they still will not win the Tour.
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1) Cookster15 has been presented with those facts multiple times before, by me for instance, and is not going to buy them this time either.

2) Responding well to doping is also a talent, which Izagirre and Lutsenko might not have as much of (at least not when it comes to GT racing), or perhaps they're just not able/allowed to use the same stuff/amount of it as Vingegaard and others are at the moment.

3) No one knows who would be the best riders in a clean world, but a team like Visma, that has more money (or at the very least seems to be spending it better) than Astana and Cofidis, would also have an advantage in such a scenario.
 
Cookster15

Cookster15

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Samu Cuenca said:
1) Cookster15 has been presented with those facts multiple times before, by me for instance, and is not going to buy them this time either.

2) Responding well to doping is also a talent, which Izagirre and Lutsenko might not have as much of (at least not when it comes to GT racing), or perhaps they're just not able/allowed to use the same stuff/amount of it as Vingegaard and others are at the moment.

3) No one knows who would be the best riders in a clean world, but a team like Visma, that has more money (or at the very least seems to be spending it better) than Astana and Cofidis, would also have an advantage in such a scenario.
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Well actually, I don't recall that I was ever presented with these claims in one list by anyone? But I do appreciate Froome's reply. In fact the excuses made for Vingegaard prior to Froome's reply only added to my suspicion of him. I suppose similarly as to why many didn't like Chris Froome's rise from nowhere in 2011.

You see, I am not a person who subscribes to the "cycling is entertainment and that is all that matters" mantra. If that was valid doping controls, the UCI passport and WADA banned list would not be required.

Plus, I disagree strongly with your point 2. That is not talent.
 
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Froome

Froome

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Samu Cuenca said:
1) Cookster15 has been presented with those facts multiple times before, by me for instance, and is not going to buy them this time either.

2) Responding well to doping is also a talent, which Izagirre and Lutsenko might not have as much of (at least not when it comes to GT racing), or perhaps they're just not able/allowed to use the same stuff/amount of it as Vingegaard and others are at the moment.

3) No one knows who would be the best riders in a clean world, but a team like Visma, that has more money (or at the very least seems to be spending it better) than Astana and Cofidis, would also have an advantage in such a scenario.
Click to expand...
I think if for example lutsenko or izagirre have the same stuff/conditions all year that pogi or jonas have, they still will not be competitive against them, because they genetically/phisically don't have the same talent.

I think everybody can respond well to doping. I cannot see a rider using doping, that doesn't improve later.
 
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theyoungest

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Cookster15 said:
:rolleyes: I say these stories are easily debunked. With all this incredible ability they still need to explain Vingegaard’s lack of results before joining Jumbo? If he was as genetically talented as all these claims make out I would expect he have achieved far more by the age of 24 (2021 TdF). I also think he would never have ridden as Roglic’s domestique.

The spin seems to be a) blend the world’s most incredible ever aerobic engine with b) what we were told about Armstrong (training and attention to details) and c) what Sky became infamous for (marginal gains)?

I still don’t buy it and neither do I enjoy it.
Click to expand...
For all your apparent skepticism it's actually you who expects humans to behave like robots. The reason why Vingegaard wasn't put in a leadership role straightaway is pretty well documented: he couldn't handle the pressure. Not even in the Tour de Pologne. He took the leader's jersey there in his first year on Jumbo, and a day later he succumbed to pure nerves.
 
Rob5091

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theyoungest said:
For all your apparent skepticism it's actually you who expects humans to behave like robots. The reason why Vingegaard wasn't put in a leadership role straightaway is pretty well documented: he couldn't handle the pressure. Not even in the Tour de Pologne. He took the leader's jersey there in his first year on Jumbo, and a day later he succumbed to pure nerves.
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That's a thing we've never been told about, how Vingegaard went from being a bundle of nerves and not being able to sleep in Poland, to handling the pressure in the Tour. Is it tranquilizers or self-hypnosis or what?
 
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samhocking

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He probably has his own phycologist back home he works with. Sepp Kuss was talking about Jumbo not having any in-house psychologists and knowing many riders use their own when at home. Trek & Ineos are the only teams I know with in-house psychologists. I think Dimension Data used to as well.
 
Rob5091

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This well known article from the Summer of 22 gives some pointers
https://velo.outsideonline.com/road...xiety-and-overthinking-to-win-tour-de-france/
Once he made it to the WorldTour, there were practical solutions for his pre-race anxiety. The Dutch team (Jumbo Visma) took him to an academy which helped with mental preparation and coaching in 2019.

Trine helped too. Some of the answers were more simple: a case of listening to his favourite songs or talking with team-mates or team staff about something other than cycling to stop the cycle.
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Krzysztof_O

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Froome said:
Vingegaard improved a lot between 2022 and 2023, it would be scary if he improves a lot between 2023 and 2024.

Remco will also improve a lot.
Click to expand...

Vingo had two big leaps of performance: 2020->2021 and 2021->2022. I'm not sure he was stronger in the mountains at the Tour 2023 (compared to 2022). He was surely stronger in the ITT and in other races of the season though.
 
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Froome

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Krzysztof_O said:
Vingo had two big leaps of performance: 2020->2021 and 2021->2022. I'm not sure he was stronger in the mountains at the Tour 2023 (compared to 2022). He was surely stronger in the ITT and in other races of the season though.
Click to expand...
www.chronoswatts.com

Les watts du duel Vingegaard/Pogacar sur le TdF 2023, par Frédéric Portoleau

Sur le Tour de France 2023, le duel Vingegaard-Pogacar pour le classement général fut très indécis jusqu'au contre-la-montre de Combloux avec une lutte intense sur chaque étape de montagne. Cet article synthétise les performances réalisées par les 2 coureurs sur ce Tour 2023 ainsi qu'une...
www.chronoswatts.com www.chronoswatts.com

The engineer Frederic Portoleau said that Vingegaard improved "5.6%" between 2023 and 2024 after analyzing his perfomances.

Pogacar also improved.
 
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