Jonas Vingegaard: Something is Rotten

[therealthing]

The official TDF Instagram page is full of comments fawning over Jonas and his ‘fantastic’ performance. Anyone suggesting that he is doping is met with hate. LOL.

Apparently it was all because he took the corners better 😂

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Ladies and gents, it looks to be the best moderate duration effort we've seen. The Skeletor helped us here. According to his own words he was holding back and generated 380 watts (about 6.33 w/kg) between climbs (so this includes 7 flat minutes between T1 and T2). Then he went thermonuclear to the finish - likely doing 7.1 - 7.3 w/kg for 13.5 minutes. This gives us about 6.9 w/kg for 20+ minutes. On a TT bike. Thermonuclear.

Hard to estimate his wattage for the whole TT due to descents. If he was "holding back" (6.33) in the first 12 minutes it would be around 6.7 w/kg for 32.5 minutes. If we assume only 6 w/kg for the first part (intense uphill and some low wattage periods on descents) it's still around 6.55 w/kg for 32.5 minutes.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Well compared to everyone else he had a great day. He was nearly 1.5 minutes faster than any other GC rider, he put time into WvA at a faster rate than in 2020, and had Vingegaard not existed he would’ve had one of the biggest winning margins in Tour history at 3.6% of the winner’s time (Ullrich held the record of 4.0% from 1997). But then along came Vingegaard who put well over a minute into WvA in just 16km of rolling terrain followed immediately by climbing Cote de Domancy at 2096 VAM - on a TT bike. All en route to winning by a 5% margin. Pogacar wasn’t bad Vingegaard just hit a completely different level all of a sudden.

People keep referencing 2020 as if Pogacar hasn't evolved as a rider since then. I'm not saying this wasn't an extraordinary performance from Vingegaard, I'm just questioning this sudden lowering of standards re: what Pogacar is capable of at his best.

 

[Blobs]

I'm someone who has literally no time for either Vingegaard or Pogacar, in fact ever since Jens Voigt upped sticks and retired no driver could really cause excitement anymore.

But seriously, this TT is just taking the mickey for me. A guy who failed to open more than a 10 second gap over two weeks suddenly goes over 4 secods faster a km than anyone else. Sorry, but my suspension of disbelief doesn't go that far, and even the seond place trounced the third place by quite a margin. And what to make of van Aerts? He slaved away like a fairground tart for days on end, always to complete exhaustion, and we are to believe that one rest day is enough to get him back to 3rd place material? I'm torn, but this day broke the tour for me. Unless either Vingegaard, Pogacar or WvA completely tank tomorrow, this result just looks a bit too much Ratiopharm to me.

Maybe rewatch stage 5 He took over a minute there.

 

[Red Rick]

People keep referencing 2020 as if Pogacar hasn't evolved as a rider since then. I'm not saying this wasn't an extraordinary performance from Vingegaard, I'm just questioning this sudden lowering of standards re: what Pogacar is capable of at his best.

Yeah I don't think you can compare say the gap to WvA vs Planche de Belles Filles. Pogacar has since then improved by quite a bit more than Van Aert.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

This doesn’t make any sense. I think he hit his numbers, he caught Rodriguez, he put 1:13 on Wout and more on all the other GC contenders. Jonas has been very good in ITTs and maybe could have nipped Wout last year for his first ever ITT victory, but this??? If he had performed the same relative to Wout as last year, Pogi would be in yellow by over a minute .

I have trouble believing that Pogacar did hit his numbers though. If that is the case and Vingegaard had this level in his back pocket the whole time, he's been sandbagging since Marie Blanque which seems like a very high risk approach given that something could've gone wrong at any time and he had no buffer at all. I don't see the point in judging Pogacar's effort relative to Rodriguez or anyone else.

 

[Red Rick]

So why isn't he going to the ITT world championship? Because one can't use this kind of drug cocktail too often. It would be too hazardous for his health. He'll probably spend August doing some rehab program. They have copied the Armstrong method: only focus on the Dauphiné as preparation and the Tour as the main dish. The rest of the year doesn't matter.

Because there's a few factors he cannot replicate

1. Fatigue. Everyone's tired and Vingegaard the least so. If today is a one day ITT he doesn't put 1'38 into Pogacar
2. His own form. One day ITTs off the back of a GT are hard. In Tokyo everyone who came out of the Tour underperformed
3. Parcours. The profile is the biggest reason gaps got so big. He's not suddenly a better flat ITTer than Evenepoel. Vingegaard did a worse T1-T2 split than Cavagna.

 

[ppanther92]

I have trouble believing that Pogacar did hit his numbers though. If that is the case and Vingegaard had this level in his back pocket the whole time, he's been sandbagging since Marie Blanque which seems like a very high risk approach given that something could've gone wrong at any time and he had no buffer at all. I don't see the point in judging Pogacar's effort relative to Rodriguez or anyone else.

Or he simply had a very good and refreshing rest day.

 

[QueenStagiaire]

Vingegaard did a worse T1-T2 split than Cavagna.

He was actually three seconds faster than Cavagna there.

 

[Rackham]

Yeah I don't think you can compare say the gap to WvA vs Planche de Belles Filles. Pogacar has since then improved by quite a bit more than Van Aert.

Pog's gap to WvA is more impressive though yesterday because the ITT was much shorter. 1:13 gain over 22.4km is much more impressive than 1:31 over 36.2km. And Van Aert is a stronger rider now as well, all things considered.

And someone is going to have to explain the marginal aero gains here...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681407721298378753

View: https://twitter.com/1ddenis1/status/1681407721298378753


It's like Froomey's elbows... with his knees!

 

[meat puppet]

One admittedly dull and mundane guess would be he moves himself back on the saddle a bit after having slid forwards.

 

[SHAD0W93]

Pog's gap to WvA is more impressive though yesterday because the ITT was much shorter. 1:13 gain over 22.4km is much more impressive than 1:31 over 36.2km. And Van Aert is a stronger rider now as well, all things considered.

And someone is going to have to explain the marginal aero gains here...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681407721298378753

View: https://twitter.com/1ddenis1/status/1681407721298378753


It's like Froomey's elbows... with his knees!

Honestly it looks like me riding my old BMX bike when I was younger that only had one gear ring. Anytime I’d go too fast for the ring, it’d just keep spinning and spinning causing my knees to go out like that.

 

[topt]

If they really did believe that instead of privately expecting that Pog would limit his losses, something must've gone wrong.

oh yeah something went wrong, the alpha mutant created in a lab by Jumbo

 

[Netserk]

Vingegaard did a worse T1-T2 split than Cavagna.

He was actually 3'' faster. But your point still stands.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Yeah I don't think you can compare say the gap to WvA vs Planche de Belles Filles. Pogacar has since then improved by quite a bit more than Van Aert.

It's a bit like saying Pogacar did well relative to his competitors at Flanders the first time, or at MSR this year. He always believes he can do better the next time, and more often than not he does.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

Pog's gap to WvA is more impressive though yesterday because the ITT was much shorter. 1:13 gain over 22.4km is much more impressive than 1:31 over 36.2km. And Van Aert is a stronger rider now as well, all things considered.

And someone is going to have to explain the marginal aero gains here...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681407721298378753

View: https://twitter.com/1ddenis1/status/1681407721298378753


It's like Froomey's elbows... with his knees!

Looks like he's shifting on the saddle or he's stretching the legs because he's got an uncomfortably narrow stance width for aero reasons.

 

[ontheroad]

He was actually three seconds faster than Cavagna there.

And that was the section that, in his own words, he went easier on!

 

[Rackham]

Looks like he's shifting on the saddle or he's stretching the legs because he's got an uncomfortably narrow stance width for aero reasons.

It's a jarring visual impression considering the song & dance these teams make about aero work in the wind tunnel, along with positioning on the TT bike.

Then thig guy comes along & he's all over the place on the machine like a toddler, just pushing out inhumane watts & hammering the power down on descents, flats & climbs with zero recovery or apparent care for the stuff (like aero) which everyone says matters.

Some people will say he's the best descender ever but there's also a caveat there, namely the fact Vinge doesn't seem to require any recovery whatsoever at any point during the ITT.

The basic truth of what I saw was a dude in full attack mode for 22.4km's. Without taking a breather.

 

[Blobs]

It's a jarring visual impression considering the song & dance these teams make about aero work in the wind tunnel, along with positioning on the TT bike.

Then thig guy comes along & he's all over the place on the machine like a toddler, just pushing out inhumane watts & hammering the power down on descents, flats & climbs with zero recovery or apparent care for the stuff (like aero) which everyone says matters.

It took about two seconds. Even if he did it 20 times that would only be 40 seconds out of a 33 minute effort. It's not like that would negate the effects of being aerodynamic, come on.

 

[Riek s]

Ladies and gents, it looks to be the best moderate duration effort we've seen. The Skeletor helped us here. According to his own words he was holding back and generated 380 watts (about 6.33 w/kg) between climbs (so this includes 7 flat minutes between T1 and T2). Then he went thermonuclear to the finish - likely doing 7.1 - 7.3 w/kg for 13.5 minutes. This gives us about 6.9 w/kg for 20+ minutes. On a TT bike. Thermonuclear.

Hard to estimate his wattage for the whole TT due to descents. If he was "holding back" (6.33) in the first 12 minutes it would be around 6.7 w/kg for 32.5 minutes. If we assume only 6 w/kg for the first part (intense uphill and some low wattage periods on descents) it's still around 6.55 w/kg for 32.5 minutes.

he was planning to ride 360 and did 380 right? Maybe they boosted his bike by 20W. (because there is no frigging way that you 'gain' 20 unexpected watts). Which resulted in him seeing a higher wattage then expected. Mayb the guy doesn't have a clue that his bike alone would get a top50 on the stage?

 

[Andon]

Vingo has been probably holding back his mutations and letting Pog get at least part of the limelight in the first weeks. He knew that whatever 5 second, 10 second, 15 second gaps Pog can try to get in the mountains, doesn't really matter.

It's an interesting battle between teams of doctors, and it sure raises a lot of questions for the future of the sport. What's the point for teams to have guys like Quintana or Nibali or Bernal in the future, aiming for GC battle, when it's utterly pointless? Do the other teams know what's up and it's just Omerta now? I feel like this is even bigger than being left out of the EPO train in the early/mid 90s. And Vingo could probably be mutated even further if the doctors would decide (which they won't, as the Tour is done). It's not like he needs to set alarm clocks middle of the night to stay alive.

I'm ok with watching a doped sport (wouldn't be here otherwise) as it can be really entertaining (see: the 90s) but I just want more mutants on the program.

 

[Pirazziattacks]

It's a jarring visual impression considering the song & dance these teams make about aero work in the wind tunnel, along with positioning on the TT bike.

Then thig guy comes along & he's all over the place on the machine like a toddler, just pushing out inhumane watts & hammering the power down on descents, flats & climbs with zero recovery or apparent care for the stuff (like aero) which everyone says matters.

Some people will say he's the best descender ever but there's also a caveat there, namely the fact Vinge doesn't seem to require any recovery whatsoever at any point during the ITT.

The basic truth of what I saw was a dude in full attack mode for 22.4km's. Without taking a breather.

Every rider shifts on their TT bike at times, you're acting like he was sliding around on the saddle like a typical uncomfortable climber who can't TT. The thing that stands out to me is that Vingegaard is always planted on the saddle unlike most other rider his size who tend to have to sit a long way forward on their TT bikes. If anything that probably shows how dialed in his position is.

Not that looking good or bad on a TT bike necessarily means anything- see Bjerg's Mauri Vansevenant impression at the Dauphine.

 

[Aimar16]

Uh, did you watch Itzulia?!

Pogacar would have destroyed him in April, just like he did in Paris-Nice. Funny how one guy is a better rider than the other for 11 months of the year. But magically Vingegaard becomes the best athlete in the world one month of the year.

 

[Volderke]

Pog's gap to WvA is more impressive though yesterday because the ITT was much shorter. 1:13 gain over 22.4km is much more impressive than 1:31 over 36.2km. And Van Aert is a stronger rider now as well, all things considered.

And someone is going to have to explain the marginal aero gains here...

https://twitter.com/x/status/1681407721298378753

View: https://twitter.com/1ddenis1/status/1681407721298378753


It's like Froomey's elbows... with his knees!

That's because the TT aerosuit is not always comfortable around the crotch.

 

[saganftw]

im wondering if foliforgaard was this strong in TT, surely today he must put more time into everyone on final climb right? or is it gonna be a comedy 30 seconds loss to pog to keep appearances

you dont go from "i didnt believe my power meter" to losing time

surely